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Moat isn't necessary at all for the deck; I suppose fetchlands aren't strictly necessary either, but in any competitive 5+ round tournament you're going to regret the game you lost to Wasteland that you didn't have to. Other mana fixers also weaken Utopia Sprawl.
Let me start of by saying that I've been reading this thread now for sometime. I've been playing Enchantress now for about 7 months and my deck is almost pimped out. Look in the pimp thread if you like. I'm the dude with all the miscuts for his deck.
Now I know people on the source HATE new ideas for whatever reason, but I'm going to share the list I've been running. I'll also explain some cards and why I'm running them. Here's the list
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Verduran Enchantress
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopis Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
4 Seal of Fire
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sylvan Library
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Plains
8 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Serra's Sanctum
Now my sb is all over the place and depending on were I play I put different cards in
1 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extration
1 Replenish
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ground Seal
1 Nevermore
1 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Energy Flux
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Leyline of Sanctity
So I'm sure there's a few things that stand right out.
1) Yes I only play 1 Serra's Sanctum. I find that this is't really a big deal to me. It's never hurt me by only running one.
2) Seal of Fire has been so good to me. I was having a really hard time with Delver on turn one. Not anymore
3) Verduran Enchantress helps out when people Surgical Extraction your enchantress's
4) I love the Sylvan Library in this deck. I never run into a problem finding what I need.
Let me know what you guys think about the list or ask any questions
How can you justify running 4xSeal of Fire but not a single Words of War?
Words of War is a win more card. Really not need. The seals will draw you cards and still off a dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
I had success with Verduran Enchantresses back when Mental Misstep ruled the land, but now there's just too much 1cc removal for me to run them (you can blame Delver and Mother of Runes for that). Ground Seal seems like a better defense against Surgical Extraction.
I imagine the Seal of Fire plan is similar to the 4-Lignify build I played when Merfolk was ruling local events, the idea being that you would 1-for-1 their threats but you would be gaining card advantage through whichever Enchantress effect you managed to stick. I feel that you're likely to get blown out by Wasteland, though.
Sylvan Library is fine, although it comes out later than Mirri's Guile and you're usually absorbing damage until you go off or get Solitary Confinement up, so you're unlikely to use it to draw additional cards. Also, like dontbiteitholmes said, no Words of War? Sylvan Library + Words of War is a powerful combination that can win you games even without Enchantress effects on the board.
I hardly think The Source hates new ideas. The Source just tends to have a greater pool of professional players than other sites, and as such we don't feel the need to spend dozens of pages debating every possible permutation for a deck, or trying to come up with weird and obscure evolutions of decks. A great majority of us have spent much time at home and at tourneys finding out which general skeletions work the best for decks. At least I, anyway, see little value in trying to reinvent the wheel. Enchantress is more lucky than most decks in that we don't have 1 solid build; we have some leniency in terms of card pool, but other decks (say Belcher) have already reached what is essentially the pinnacle of their deck design and don't need to alter their builds that greatly.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pharmacist
@ WoW: I won't argue against not using it. Thats an individuals choice, and to be perfectly honest Sigil is the only wincon I feel should be required for our deck. However, I will argue against your considering it to be "win-more." You've opted for Emrakul (which is perfectly fine) however between WoW and Emrakul I would say WoW has much better early-mid game utility. It can act as a cantrip, and once it hits the field for a pittance 1 mana and sacrificing 1 draw can either begin chipping away at greedy players (such as those abusing fetches/bobs too much) or remove threatening creatures like Delver. Even with only several enchantments on the field and 2 Enchantress effects WoW can still put the opponent on a 3-5 turn clock. Emrakul, although great for Painter Stone/S&T/Mirror MU, ultimately is a dead card in your hand until you have a more prominent board position. He can't remove threatening creatures, and in most situations can't even be cast without at least 8 Enchantments on the field (3+ being Sprawl/Growth) as well as a Sanctum.
In my opinion, Emrakul suits the "win-more," slot because he can't be used early-mid game, he honestly has no real utility (eg. removing threats), and the fact that he costs 15 means by the time you can ramp that much you could've won with any other available wincon (Sacred Mesa included) thus he really fulfills no major purpose for the deck. Like I said earlier, hes great for the Mirror MU, or random Painter Stone/S&T decks, but unless your metagaming I very much doubt you absolutely need him, and even if you did I would rather see you run Sigil/WoW/Emrakul than just Sigil/Emrakul.
@ Seal of Fire Do you honestly need to answer a Delver on your T1 that often? It seems to me that running several Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere would serve your purposes better. Albeit you don't get the nice little benefit of shocking their dome, however, you also don't screw yourself over in the long run. O-Ring/JtN answer a lot more threats which need to be dealt with, dont make you waste a Sprawl naming Red, and also don't force you to play the risk-game with tutoring up a target like Tagia/Plateau for Wasteland.
@ Sylvan Library: I actually think this is a great card to be running in Enchantress (I personally choose not to) however in my opinion it by no means replaces Enlightened Tutor. I would rather be able to find the utility card I need immediately than receive a few extra draws.
@ 1 Sanctum: I don't really understand why you would want to severely diminish your ability to ramp out an Emrakul/come back from a Wasteland.
@ SB: For Enchantress, anyway, I usually am not too critical for SB's because our SB tends to be more toolbox than generic answers, however, the 1-of Leyline of Sanctity is somewhat questionable. The point of LoS is to have access to it asap (preferrably on Turn 0). I don't advise mulling yourself to oblivion to have it in your opening hand, however The reason for Leyline is that it protects us from some of the more annoying threats like discard, Intuition-based strategies, burn, etc. Even SBing in that 1 E Tutor still isn't maximizing your chances of getting it. I'd honestly rather see you junk 2-3 of your 5 GY hate than run it as a 1-of.
What MU's do you need Surgical Extraction for, out of curiosity? Seems to be awkward running that + 5 pieces of GY hate which severely weaken the ability to use a SE effectively.
Forlorn Egoist
Quite new to this thread, just putting an Enchantress deck together and see a bunch of concern about Delvers and other flying things. Has anyone considered Raking Canopy as a sideboard card? I searched this thread and didn't see the card come up. Note that it's also pretty good in the mirror.
On another note, I'd like to say that I for one am going to try out the 2 Zenith 1 Arbor plan and see how terrible it is. :smile:
-magicmoocow
i don't advocate running Arbor in the deck. The number of times you need to GSZ for the extra mana, AND you can afford to burn an enchantress doing so, will be greatly outweighed by the number of times your arbor eats their removal, and the number of times you have arbor in your opening grip and need to wild growth it, but can't.
I fall on the other side in regards to Arbor. I've been testing a 61 card build with 3 Zeniths (the third zenith is the 61st card) and I've found greater consistency than with two zeniths and 60 cards. I like having Zenith to double as acceleration when I've got a hand with two enchantresses and no turn one play other than Zenith -> Dryad Arbor. It normally only eats removal in game one. So far, I've liked having Dryad Arbor in. I haven't yet encountered a situation where Dryad Arbor is my only land in hand, but that is the risk you take if you run it.
In a situation where your only play would be GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, it could serve as a tempo block for your opponent, having them play removal turn 1-2 instead of a threat or a different proactive answer.
I would honestly rather spend my T1-2 enchanting my own lands with Sprawl/Growth (thusly essentially putting me a land drop ahead of them) than GSZ->Arbor, have them StP/PtE/etc. it, then take their turn and get a land drop ahead of me. Even if you're forcing them to delay something like a Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, or whatever, the fact remains is that your still essentially slowing down your own acceleration while they still get to draw cards and dig deeper for counters or other cards which are legitimate threats. When it comes to acceleration/"tempo," Enchantress tends to beat most decks. I see little reason in slowing down my acceleration simply to try and get my opponent to use 1 of his now not-entirely-useless pieces of removal.
Enchantress has an absolutely horrible early game. The first 5-7 turns or so are when opponents have the best ability to screw with our deck, apply pressure, etc. We don't want to try and slow our opponents game. Thats not the decks style. Our mission is to accelerate out our Enchantress's/protection before they have a chance to use hate cards or apply any devastating pressure.
Am I saying that running the Arbor will wreck the deck? No. It's 1 card and ultimately won't do anything to drastically affect the deck. However, I see no real benefit to running it as all our cards are DEFENSE, not OFFENSIVE like Rock/Maverick/etc.
Forlorn Egoist
When you play with Arbor, you do have to play around removal in game one. Realistically, you only need Arbor to survive until the second turn.
T1: Forest, GSZ -> Arbor
T2: Forest, Enchantress
I find the real value of Dryad Arbor to be in mulligans. Sometimes this deck can mulligan very poorly. I find the third GSZ and Dryad Arbor to increase mulligan consistency.
Seal of fire? Really? And no words of war seems greatly questionable to me. I don't think it's a win more card really; it prevents decking and can still off your opponents' guys. I would much prefer the 4th grove to verduran enchantress, as verduran seems like a magnet for any removal, it even dies to grim lavamancer. Or I would rather run green sun's zenith, as it costs the same and fetches the better enchantress out of the deck. Even enlightened tutor MD as a one of seems better but I would favor green sun's zenith here because e. tutor is card disadvantage, which can matter occasionally. Also in your list, it seems like a wasteland could potentially turn off all future seal of fires. Same with sanctum; I've always loved to have 2, have my opponent waste the first one, then I lay down the 2nd one and combo out again afterwards. Also in your list, with all the seal of fires, I might consider altering your manabase to have 4 windswept's and 4 foothills in order to have a singleton basic mountain as well for having an unwasteable red source. Also, with words of war in your list you can abuse it with sylvan library to deal 6 damage and have to put nothing back while still retaining your current life total. I always thought that interaction was neat. I personally like guile more though because it's a one drop despite it being card disadvantage if you cast it without an enchantress out.
Dryad arbor also seems equally horrible in zenith builds. We have 8 turn 1 accelerants in the form of wild growth and sprawl, we don't really need another one. And, again, it would be a removal magnet. And drawing it in the opener might cost you a game where you wish it were a fetchland/basic or what have you.
The point of using GSZ to get Dryad Arbor is when you don't have a Sprawl/Growth T1-2. If you have either of those, it's basically a 5th Presence you have the option to cast turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Thoughts? It's even more expensive than Rule of Law, but this time it's 1-sided:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...0du4boe_en.jpg
EDIT: Full set is revealed on the Mothership. (Aside) Finally a white Curse!
If your Dryad Arbor is eating removal, you're wasting your Zenith.Quote:
Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus
Also, you should read this article if you haven't before. It might persuade you to drop a card from your list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=12478
@ Shawon: It's too slow against Storm, which is the main matchup you would want it in. Rule of Law can realistically be played Turn 2, and that's often too slow because they'll want to open with Duress or Thoughtseize anyway. The only application I can think of for Curse of Exhaustion would be the mirror, and Aura of Silence would probably get the nod there.
I know that it's sacrilege to run 61 cards. I'm only testing still but this is the first time I've ever done it with serious intent. Here's my reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
According to the starting 7 chart, running 10 Enchantresses (2 of them Zeniths) in a 60 card deck leaves you with a .658329% (66% rounded) chance to have 1 or 2 of them in your hand. In a 61 card deck I've got a .667772% (67%) chance of getting one of 11 Enchantresses (3 Zentihs).
This deck lives and dies by having an enchantress and land in the opening hand. Mulligans can cost you the game before it's even started. I think that the extra 1% to get the Enchantress in your opening hand is worth it. The only enchantment one actually needs is Solitary Confinement. With the amount of tutoring in this deck, I think it's more than fine to lower my chance of drawing a solitary even if it's marginally less. With the added Zeniths, occasionally they're dead so a Dryad Arbor gives them a bit more use and allows me to mulligan with more flexibility.
My feeling about this deck is that it can beat anything if it could be just a little bit more consistent with mulligans. Games that I lose are normally due to mulligans, combo, or pernicious deed. So far in my testing, I've had success with 61. I know it goes against tradition but I think the ratios are worth it to help reduce one of those three factors.
Here's my list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress' Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Mirri's Guile
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Exploration
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Choke
4 Elephant Grass
2 Ground Seal
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Words of War
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Sterling Grove
2 Replenish
8 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
The other solutions I'm toying with:
(61) -1 Zenith, +1 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Arbor, +1 Forest
(60) -1 Zenith, +1 Mirri's Guile, -1 Seal of Primordium
(60) -1 Zenith, -1 Seal of Primordium, -1 Arbor, +1 Forest, +1 Enlightened Tutor/Sterling
This is the list i'm currently using.
MD:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
4 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 City of Solitude
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Karmic Justice
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Windswept heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
8 Forest
2 Plains
SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke
2 Ground Seal
2 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
1 Elephant Grass
1 Nevermore
Not sure about the Nevermore in the sideboard. Just figured i needed more combo-hate.
I personally like dryad in the deck. It's extremely rare that I GSZ for it, but it saved my ass a couple of times by fetching a surprise chumpblocker when I just need one extra turn to stabilize. It's especially nice with grass.
I'm hesitant between 1 extra oblivion ring (got 1 MD) or 1 lignify in the SB. I'm thinking that lignify could save my ass vs a resolved iona if I already have a grove in play but that seems pretty narrow. Oblivion ring on the other hand can give me some extra help vs CB and show&tell in particular, two MU that I fear.