[DTB] Vial Goblins

I can't believe the discussion going on in this thread is about SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES, a card that has been bad for two years in this deck. Gempalm is a very solid card, although if you go down to 8 one drops and in addition you are not playing mogg war marshal/frogtosser, I can see why one may not like him. I hate to state the obvious but he is uncounterable and he is a cantrip which make it a great card even if it requires lots of guys.

Through my testing I think discussion needs more about Media's build and less about discussions that have been had before. I think it has the potential to be the wave of the future in certain metagames. My current RB frogtosser chieftain build is very similar to Waikiki's build above, but not a fan of that sideboard.

However I think going to less than 3 piledrivers is a mistake. People fear the card so much it's funny, he is a removal magnet. Win-more maybe, but he demands attention and always changes the field of combat that a deck of 2/2s cannot do otherwise.

Nice, to see your also going that direction.What SB do you use? It has served me very well. What SB do you use? Im not that experienced in playing goblins and would like some SB advice vs the tier matchups.

It's mainly a meta call of course. The obvious problem with the new age RB builds is that you are not playing green for grip/hooligan and you also lose port, so cards like moat and humility become real problems, which makes earwig squad extermely important, which makes me sad because I've always hated him. It also makes me want to run pithing needle as a catch all answer to a lot of nasty cards that there is no other way you can stop without port/grip. I'd go with those 6-7 cards in any new age RB sideboard (if you aren't playing earwigs maindeck) and go from there, probably including 4 cards for the combo matchup (as you picked cabal therapy, it's an ok choice), 4 for that nasty zoo deck, and then maybe 1-2 super meta spots.

I actually like chalice of the void in the deck, because that + earwigs is often decent sideboarding against combo, and on the play it can also serve as an ok card against zoo/canadian and a crushing one against burn. I know some people like REB because it is good against blue decks and combo but I've always found it awkward and cloggy against blue (in goblins).

The notable exclusion from my new age RB sideboard is GY hate and creature hate. The only creature decks that I see are merfolk and zoo, and merfolk is a good matchup already. And to me GY hate has always taken away a little too much from the goblin strategy, though relic of course is always a solid card. In the end it is a meta call of course.

3 Earwig Squad
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mad Auntie (2 MD)
3 Relic of Progenitus

Is my sideboard right now. Obviously it needs some tweaking though. In the end I do play GY hate as Chalice serves as combo + burn hate together, although it is only OK and not spectacular against either, it does free up sideboard space.

I currently switched to 4 SB magus of the moon since they can pretty much slow down the control decks. Good point on removing the moats from the deck!

What is your main deck since I found it hard to get slots for the mad auntie.

Magus of the Moon is definitely a tough card for control decks to beat. However I think the deck should stick to its guns and try to maximize goblin synergy, as goblins has traditionally had a good matchup against control. 4 Warren Weirdings helps (countertop control) and the Earwigs help against control AND combo AND problem game 2 cards like plague. Also pithing needle is great against many control decks and more. It depends how intimate you are with your meta. In my meta it is very flexible and changing which is why cards like earwig, needle, chalice are always good safe bets. So I'd rather spend my sideboard on versatile slots or slots for the tough matchups instead of cards for the control matchup. But of course like everyone says it always depends.

My main deck is not very fine tuned as of now. It needs some work.

MANA [26]
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial

GOBLINS [29]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
0-2 Goblin Warchief
1-2 Mad Auntie
2-3 Siege-Gang Commander

REMOVAL [6]
4 Warren Weirding
1-2 Gempalm Incinerator

I'm also testing a version without chieftains but so far this has been better.

So, we're once again a Deck to Beat. Quick listing of all the decks that performed for our calculations (unfortunately I'm missing one list from Northern Legacy League 5 - couldn't find the decks anywhere):

8º LML Madrid
Jose Raúl Rico
6th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Bloodmark Mentor
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Lightning Crafter
4 Aether Vial
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Pyromancer


Legacy Hassloch 17.05.09
Bryn Jones
5th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Pyromancer
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Perish


3º Torneo Legacy Casa Da Xuventude Ourense
Emilio Rodríguez Tilve
3rd place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Warren Weirding
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boggart Mob
4 Aether Vial
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Weirding
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst


3º Torneo Legacy Casa Da Xuventude Ourense
Andrés Pérez
5th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Aether Vial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

Sideboard:
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress


Earthquake 2
Maccagnani Andrea
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip


Northern Legacy League 5
2nd place

Rw Goblins


Master of Geddon
Daniele Conigliaro
2nd place

Mainboard:
5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
3 Skirk Prospector
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Leave No Trace
3 Disenchant
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Price of Progress


Master of Geddon
Maicol Beltrame
3rd place

Mainboard:
8 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
4 Thorn of Amethyst


Master of Geddon
Federico Gilardi
8th Place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boggart Mob
2 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin King
3 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Extirpate


Bourgoin Jailleu V
Jérémy Gellon
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast


Lotacy 04/07/09
Xavi Granados
3rd Place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga
6 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon


The End of MTG's Days
Giarola Andrea
6th place

Mainboard:
5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Stingscourger
1 Leave No Trace
4 Disenchant
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shatterstorm


Open CDF St Denis en Bugey
Fabian Ledoux
8th Place

Mainboard:
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Mad Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Cabal Therapy


Universidad de las Artes Lúdicas Duel for Duals
Ignacio Herrero
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggard Auntie
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin King
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

Sideboard:
1 Stingscourger
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Relic of Progeitus
3 Earwig Squad
1 Boartusk Liege


M10 & M10 Rules from here on


Ancient Memory Convention 50 (this was on the day of M10 going legal)
Kenji Hiyama
2nd place

Mainboard:
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Goon
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Earwig Squad
3 Relic of Progenitus


Japan Legacy Championship 2009
Kataoka Asami
3rd place

Mainboard:
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Stingscourger
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard:
3 Snuff Out
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warren Weirding
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Mad Auntie


Play the Game, See the World!
Niklas von Boguzewski
4th place

Mainboard:
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Warren Weirding
3 Mutavault
2 Taiga
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mountain
2 Badlands

Sideboard:
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Perish
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
2 Goblin King


Play the Game, See the World!
Lorenz Kiefer
5th place

Mainboard:
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
15 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Price of Progress
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Play the Game, See the World!
Tobias Dreger
6th place

Mainboard:
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mutavault
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress


Finnish Legacy Championships 2009
Tero Arpiainen
8th place

Mainboard:
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Weirding
4 Badlands
2 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Wort Boggart Auntie

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Mountain
1 Gempalm Incinerator


Results by splash:

Mono-Red: 111
Red/Black/Green: 1111111
Red/Green: 11111
Red/White: 1111
Red/Black: 1

So Rbg is the most popular/performing the best with all the other color combinations being somewhat presented, with Rb having the worst time of the bunch. Apparently enchantment removal is still the word of the day rather than creature removal.

It's worth noting that 8 builds have no removal splash whatsoever, suggesting that the red removal package is still quite sufficient. 11 have either Warren Weirdings or Swords to Plowshares though.

Here's the missing list from NLL#5. It's actually the same list that the same guy played at Master of Geddon.

Maicol Beltrame Aka Babybue
Goblin RW

2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
4 Plateu
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Vexing Shuser
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incenerator
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
60
SIDE
4 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic Of Progenitus

Interesting to note that all the white splashes are from Italy.
We probably have a thing for white, dunno.

Anyway, lol @ the goblin's decline article! :laugh:

After a little bit of counting, here are some highlights:
45 Mogg Fanatic (2,25 avg per deck): are those results before fanatic got nerfed? otherwise we probably have to test him again. The number of Confidants and Noble Hierarc might have screwed our results.
23 Rishadan Port (1,15 avg): evidently rishadan port got worse against SDT, and Mutavault (see below) got better, probably due to Standstill and other tribal decks.
14 Mutavault (0,7 avg): see above.
12 Stingscourger (0,6 avg).
9 Kiki-Jiki (0,45)+ 9 Lightning Crafter + 7 Skirk Prospector (+4 Sharpshooter): Holy Combo, Batman! actually a lot of people is playing those one ofs to have a shoot against moat and other stall I guess. Needs some test for sure.
8 Wort, Boggart Auntie: Looks like every Rbx version is playing one.
8 Vexing Shusher: what?
7 Goblin Chieftain: Seems a little low, considered the power of the card and the fact that it's red.
4 Mogg War Marshal: ok, so we're like 2-3 people in the world thinking this card is good.

Other stuff:
1 Bloodmark Mentor
3 Earwig Squad
2 Boggart Mob
2 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goyf (oh noes!)

Well the article makes sense if you look at it from a US perspective. There's apparantly a ton of Zoo there and to be honest, that's not a metagame I would pick Goblins as my weapon of choice.

I'd give people some time to further test with the new lord and other possibilities. We all love to stay with the original build. Thinking outside the box is hard.

@Nihil: Thanks, couldn't dig that up for the life of me. Navigating Tipo1.it without speaking Italian was kind of hard.

@GreenOne: Thanks. I was going to do such a listing myself, but fell asleep. Anyways, regarding Goblin Chieftain and Mogg Fanatic, it's worth noting that these results start from May and M10 came out in the middle of July so only ~a third of these decks are post-M10.

Ancient Memory Convention 50 is the first M10-empowered deck - I added the note in the listing. And the white splash has been consistently performing over the years. We must remember that in the first GP, it was mono-red and Rw that Top 8d and it has been doing well since.

Also, Swords to Plowshares is still the best removal spell ever printed and Goblins is very capable of dealing with the life deficit, especially if it gets to swing through some big blockers. Indeed, I don't like Weirding due to the existence of Daze; StP suffers not of that problem. Stingscourger on the other hand has Vial and Lackey to cheat it through without fear of counters. I think we're selling the white splash short just on the account of the Goblins-count (which is still ~30).


@Mantis: Mayhap, but I have to point out that Zoo isn't a nightmare match-up or anything. Indeed, without hate, I'm not sure if Zoo is even favored in the match-up - Goblins has historically beat up on aggro decks on the account of the midgame gas the deck packs and that hasn't really changed; the only difference is that the 1-drops can be 3/3 now (and the deck is more vulnerable to Wasteland).

That said, I understand Anwar's PoV. I think he's definitely selling Goblins short there though - if you've got a great MU vs. one of the DTB (Merfolk), good against the other one (Countertop) and decent vs. the last two (Tempo Thresh & Zoo) with only one bad MU in the DTW-area, I think the deck is rather well poised for the metagame.

i would of thought more people would of had goblin pyromancers in there sideboards for mirror matches but oh well just one of my rambled thoughts.

Pyromancer isn't really that good in the mirror because if he is killed his effect will not take place, such as with gempalm. I mean he is ok but eh. Mirror match is not really about the goblins, but the lands and the vials, and how many/if pyrokinesis in sideboard. A 24 land RG build with 2 md Tin Street and 4 SB pyrokinesis will dominate the mirror much more than a goblin build packing 3 SB pyromancer.

I don't think Zoo is a good matchup. Or an average matchup. Or a bad matchup. It is a terrible one.
1) 10-12 removal that can take out any of our creatures
2) Around 20 creatures that are all X/3 or more, basically giant walls akin to goyf. Plus possibly lavamancer, aka nightmare city, especially for those evil fanatic cutters.
3) Possible red sweepers out of the SB.

Winning the die roll is a huge help though in regards to land wars. The faster you can shut down one of their colors the better (obv).

Pyrokinesis, not my favorite in the matchup. In fact so far it has sucked for me against zoo. Perish is my card of choice but I don't always want to run black (plus it has some ok applications in other places). Any other good ones? EE maybe? I usually run x2 in my 3c goblins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoulQ

I don't think Zoo is a good matchup. Or an average matchup. Or a bad matchup. It is a terrible one.
1) 10-12 removal that can take out any of our creatures
2) Around 20 creatures that are all X/3 or more, basically giant walls akin to goyf. Plus possibly lavamancer, aka nightmare city, especially for those evil fanatic cutters.
3) Possible red sweepers out of the SB.

---

My experience is frankly way different. Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Waste will just win all too many games vs. them and Lavamancer shouldn't ever untap unless you cut Gempalms AND Fanatics (how dumb of you) thanks to the presence of Matrons.

Stuff like Lackey and Warchief can be used to draw fire (or just bury them) while Stingscourger buys time and Matron+Ringleader+SGC win it for you. Frankly, my record vs. Zoo is positive. Pride-Mage is an annoyance, but they rarely get to 3 untapped lands in play vs. you so they have to play it out for you to destroy. Of course, if you play Rbx relying on Weirding over Sting/Gempalm, may god help your soul.


But yeah, Vial is the key in the match-up; it ramps you up while your mana disruption keeps them playing fair, and often Wasteland can be used to just cripple their "big creatures" outside Goyf (which you just chump most of the time when you can't kill/bounce it).

You run more lands - the deck with more lands is traditionally the favorite in red mirror and that's how it's played out for me. Your superior mana production and ability to force them to kill creatures will just beat most of their draws (of course they have nuts sometimes and just kill you, but even then it depends on you not being able to assault their sparse resource, be it lands, creatures or stuff forcing burn) and they're usually arrogant enough not to pack more than 2-3 Pyroclasms/Volcanic Fallouts total. Also, vs those cards, Pyrokinesis and Wasteland can be used to easily wipe both sides of the board (which is, if you didn't guess, in your favor as your lategame is 1000 times better than theirs unless they have Cursed Scroll).

Oh, and Price of Progress sucks against the mono-R versions, yet another advantage. Though I can see how Rbg would be horrible here. It has basically none of the factors allowing mono-R to do well vs. Zoo. Another reason I'd run mono-R with Stings in the present metagame, btw.


As for Pyromancer, it got cut from my 75 long ago as better cards were printed and the metagame shifted to require different cards. It does quite a bit, but I simply cannot fit it without cutting something I deem more important. Mirror is the last of its uses; killing both sides is rarely the thing you want to do. What it does is steal games where you have that one turn window to swing for the win - it's a huge boost out of nowhere easily throwing all opponent's calculations to the wind. That said, I find myself needing more Goblins rather than more finishers. In a 4 War Marshal 4 SGC-build, I could see it perhaps if you can fit it in, but you'll have even greater problem fitting it in in such a build.

For Zoo I have been testing with some success Flamebreak. Its 3 damage to all non flying creatures. It wont hit goyf or an active Jitte, but that and Pyrochensis have put me in situations where I can win. The burn they run just makes the game so hard for us. Another option is Firestorm, but that is a lot of card disadvantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eldariel

My experience is frankly way different. Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Waste will just win all too many games vs. them and Lavamancer shouldn't ever untap unless you cut Gempalms AND Fanatics (how dumb of you) thanks to the presence of Matrons.

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I have two versions going right now of goblins, a classic Rg version with a very light splash and a new age Rb version. I play 4 gempalm 4 fanatic in Rg and 2 gempalm 3 fanatic in Rb. I'll be honest and say I probably haven't played against the deck as much as you and in all likelihood you are a better player than me so I think that is a potential factor. But still, comparatively speaking with other matchups, my experiences have shown zoo to be second worse to combo. I guess I haven't really tried hyper aggressive mulligan into vial. It is just that I've found that without waste/port AND vial I have a hard time keeping up: either I end up spending my lands on stopping them even if they have a threat on the field (I'm playing 23 land right now...and if I'm on the draw they often will have a threat, even if it is just a 2/2 nacatl), or my vial is just not fast enough to race their army and burn. Sorry if you took offense to my post maybe I'm just not playing the matchup quite right.

I'm currently not playing sting in Rg though I think I might go down to 2 SGC and 3 fanatic for x2...I did always love him.

And yes I still like fanatic, he always gets in there as such an underestimated damage dealer and there have been a lot of creature strategies in my meta as of late where has done well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I have two versions going right now of goblins, a classic Rg version with a very light splash and a new age Rb version. I play 4 gempalm 4 fanatic in Rg and 2 gempalm 3 fanatic in Rb. I'll be honest and say I probably haven't played against the deck as much as you and in all likelihood you are a better player than me so I think that is a potential factor. But still, comparatively speaking with other matchups, my experiences have shown zoo to be second worse to combo. I guess I haven't really tried hyper aggressive mulligan into vial. It is just that I've found that without waste/port AND vial I have a hard time keeping up: either I end up spending my lands on stopping them even if they have a threat on the field (I'm playing 23 land right now...and if I'm on the draw they often will have a threat, even if it is just a 2/2 nacatl), or my vial is just not fast enough to race their army and burn. Sorry if you took offense to my post maybe I'm just not playing the matchup quite right.

I'm currently not playing sting in Rg though I think I might go down to 2 SGC and 3 fanatic for x2...I did always love him.

And yes I still like fanatic, he always gets in there as such an underestimated damage dealer and there have been a lot of creature strategies in my meta as of late where has done well.

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I'm personally running a mono-red version with stings and I have a pretty damn good win rate against Zoo. While I wouldn't suggest hyper-aggressive mulling to vial, but having a vial in your hand while running wastelands will often mean the game should be yours, no question. I have a roughly 70-ish% win rate against zoo, pre-board which falls to 60-ish% post board, but this pulls for the fact that Gobs vs Zoo is slightly favourable.

@ foulq

i see what you mean, i've had good success with it in days past but as far as todays standards go with gempalms in every goblin deck it certainly wouldn't get the job done.

i think of it as a suicide move thought you let your opponents goblins strike for near fatal then your attack while there tapped out and surprise them with a pyromanser and it "games" over

I'm very interested in the R/w builds. Even though they're supposedly weaker I'm under the impression that they're played in a very aggro heavy meta. If Goblins T8 in places where Zoo runs rampant thanks to a combination of Incenerator and STP then that's interesting to me. And I recall once being very impressed when playing against such a goblins list, so I'm just going to test it. Not like that will hurt

Im curious about the SB plan of all you RB players.

In the matchups:

Combo/Landstill/Thresh/Decks you expect plague.

What do you take out on the play/draw and what do you put in.
You can take my SB and work from there or post your own sb.