[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Congrats Arian on the top32 !
Did you see a lot of True Name Nemesis during the tournament ? There seemed to be a lot at Bazaar of Moxen.

Btw, couldn't make it to Bazaar of Moxen in the end. Happy event in the family exiled BoM from the stack.

Quickly @ Qweerios:
Just stating Brainstorm must be 4 or 0, is the same as stating a Legacy deck must be 60 and never 61.
I could also say that seeing you mentioning playing 61 card makes my eyes bleed (actually it does not, I don't really care personally). Does that make my argument any better ? not really.
You saying that playing 3 Brainstorm makes strange things to your body does not make it any better. In my opinion it makes your argument only weaker, at least very less audible.
And mostly it is contradictory with you asking to be "serious":

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@Evertbody reading this,

A good trick to anyone hitting the "Submit Reply" button is to try and think of counterarguments to what you are advancing. Be critical of what you assert and we might end up with better conclusions to successfully optimize our decks. Maybe I am alone in this enterprise but I don't believe that a good discussion revolves around you showing me what is dear to you, me showing you what is dear to me, and leaving it to that because we cannot inquire on our preferences any further. For the sake of development, let's use reason to support our choices and all will be clearer.

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Both are "obvious", although there are corner cases where it is valid to not respect those basic statement. I did play 61 cards in Nic Fit in the past, and I understand why we could play only 3 Brainstorm on GtF list as Tao explained it.
That said, playing the 4th Brainstorm on the 61th slot is interesting, but it could make someone else upset.
He would argue to cut something in the 60th rather than getting a brain-cancer playing 61th. Because any argument about the 61th loss being compensated by the gain in consistency brought by Brainstorm does not change the fact that it is one card too much. Playing 4th Brainstorm in a 60 deck card being the holy standard.
So you argue that we can break one, and not the other ? Sorry, but why ?

Anyway we are in the Nic Fit thread right ? Aren't we here to think out of the box (the reason that makes you loving and hating it) ?
If that is so, then I hope you can understand people here playing only 3 brainstorms in a 60 cards deck, and that you will stop your body from secreting unhealthy things.

So here is my report for the Bazar of Moxen main event.

I played Scapeshift Nic Fit and reach 83rd place (695 players).
- 2 fetches MD (+1 bayou +1 mountain)
- 2 Huntmasters MD, the third being replaced by a scavenging ooze.
- 2 slaughter games MD for the flex slots.

The report will be brief. Ask for insights if you want something more detailed !

Round 1: Dredge. Win 2 - 1. Ooze MD was killer in this MU, as I managed to take game 1 thanks to him.

Round 2: Merfolk. Win 2 - 1. Featuring TNN. What a beast... I had to deed x3 times in the last game using witness to get rid of a lethal TNN. Good player using his own submerge on TNN. I scape him in the last additional turn.

Round 3: Reanimator. Lost 1 - 2. Made a bad call on game 3 with a flashbacked therapy, instead of picking Pithing needle (which I saw on the first therapy), I named FOW (He also had one). Then, GSZ for Ooze and had to wait for a BW to get rid of it. Should have done vice-versa, he might not have countered the GSZ with the FOW.

Round 4: UWR control / punishing fire. Win 2 - 1. Very long games. Scape him in the first. Got killed by TNN/Clique in the second. He died to aggro in the last game.

Round 5: Homebrew Esperblade. Win 2 - 0 . Very very long games. Esper playing 1 terminus / 1 entreat, Jace, TNN, SFM, Blood Moon... WTF !!! We went back and forth both games, really really close.

Round 6: ANT. Win 2 - 1. Ooze MVP !!!! and the last one I got lucky, he was a bit "storm short" as I was up to 26 life.

Round 7: BUG Delver + TNN. Lost 0 - 2 . I guess the previous match drained too much of my concentration. I sat and kept poor hands both games while my opponent had everything. Double delver game 1 with counterspells back-up and perfect tempo game 2.

Round 8: OmniShow. Lost 0 - 2. Luckiest opponent ever. Game 1 he had leyline of Sanctity in his starting hand (1-of...) and I could have played Slaughter game by turn 3 if not. Game 2, I slaughtered ETI on turn 3 (after a therapy turn 1 on S&T) and he had drawn S&T + the 1-of Emrakul of his deck. WTF !!! Well I'm out of day 2 :-(

Round 9: Death Proof. Win 2 - 0. Game 1 he died to aggro. Game 2 he died to scapeshift after having sided out his FOW :D

Overall satisfied by my own performance. I usually play kind of punishing version of Nic Fit but decide at the very last moment to give a go to the scapeshift one. Why ?
I wanted a way to win quick as I expected games to be really really slow as this was a major tournament with a lot of players and huge prices for the top 8.
=> 1 match was won thanks to a scape in the additional turn !!!! Priceless.

A bit disappointed as "Combo" was all over the place (pairings I love you :-() 4 matches on 9 !!

What exactly is "Death Proof"?

Excellent report Arianrhod, glad to see a non-Pod fitter clean house.

I'm very interested in working From the Ashes into my Punishing Fit. Is this card worth playing without a Wishboard? Is it win-more, or is it Price of Progress level superfuckingawesome? So many of these decks play 0 basics and I wish so badly to prey upon them.

I would obviously have to make room for more basic lands to support this and cut something less vital to fit FtA (maybe 2 copies?). How does this look to you? Can't tell if this card is awesome or unnecessary.

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 From the Ashes

@Vinilco,

The Brainstorm argument here is something so fundamental that anybody that doesn't understand it is missing out on a very basic principle of competitive magic. I had legitimate concerns about getting that point across to a community that is dear to me on the source so I had the whole thing read through by a couple of fellow competitive magic players. The conclusion was unanimous, those who don't understand why most decks should begin with 0 or 4 Brainstorm and how any in-between amount is senseless are the ones missing out. I will take their precious advice and stop wasting my time trying to communicate with people speaking a different language, it is too arduous for what comes out of it.

I don't care how my method of argumentation was perceived or where I stumbled in my explanation. I am a truth-seeker and we have been arguing on different grounds towards different goals.

EDIT: If you think that using graphic language or making apparently silly comparisons is a deliberate attempt at discrediting myself, you are deluded. Making shocking statements is meant to induce shock, a state that tends to make people backtrack to known territory. It is an attempt at having the reader go back to his roots and rethink the basics of what makes a deck good, or in this case, consistent.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

What exactly is "Death Proof"?

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A tempo deck based on Death shadow which include life points as another ressource.
Basically, the opponent plays a lot of life costing spells (gitax probe, dismember, street wraith) to reach the threshold of 12 HP. From there it plays death shadow and try to race you :)

Very interesting deck.

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

The conclusion was unanimous, those who don't understand why most decks should begin with 0 or 4 Brainstorm and how any in-between amount is senseless are the ones missing out. I will take their precious advice and stop wasting my time trying to communicate with people speaking a different language, it is too arduous for what comes out of it.

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Like you say MOST decks. Pod lists are heavily constricted on deck space. A deck that is forced to play~44 lands and creatures, 4 Cabal Therapies and 3-4 Birthing Pods has only ~8-9 slots left. I can certainly see reasons why Green Sun's Zenith, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare or Inquisition of Kozilek are legitimate contenders for those slots.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Like you say MOST decks. Pod lists are heavily constricted on deck space. A deck that is forced to play~44 lands and creatures, 4 Cabal Therapies and 3-4 Birthing Pods has only ~8-9 slots left. I can certainly see reasons why Green Sun's Zenith, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare or Inquisition of Kozilek are legitimate contenders for those slots.

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At that point there's probably a too-cute or win-more creature you can shave for the 4th brainstorm.

Hell, I'd even get rid of the Recurring Nightmare.

I definitely want to see as many brainstorms as possible per game. You don't know if you want to see a recurring nightmare. It might be nice, but it might be useless.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

At that point there's probably a too-cute or win-more creature you can shave for the 4th brainstorm.

Hell, I'd even get rid of the Recurring Nightmare.

I definitely want to see as many brainstorms as possible per game. You don't know if you want to see a recurring nightmare. It might be nice, but it might be useless.

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It is obviously not about whether a card is always useful or not. The deck plays many situational cards like Deed, Explorer, Therapy or a good number of the Pod targets anyway - which is btw why I had always suggested running 4 Brainstorm.

Having a Recurring Nightmare in the deck seems like a super important card thing in grindy matchups and I don't think stuff like Phantasmal Image, Scavenging Ooze or Archmage are debatable. If you would cut anything for the 4th Brainstorm it would probably be a Decay, a DR Shaman, the GSZ or a Baleful Strix.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

A tempo deck based on Death shadow which include life points as another ressource.
Basically, the opponent plays a lot of life costing spells (gitax probe, dismember, street wraith) to reach the threshold of 12 HP. From there it plays death shadow and try to race you :)

Very interesting deck.

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Hmm... that kinda does sound interesting.
I assume its weak to burn or U/R Young Delver.

Is it of any concern to us? I assume that Deed and Decay would make it not something that should scare us.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

Hmm... that kinda does sound interesting.
I assume its weak to burn or U/R Young Delver.

Is it of any concern to us? I assume that Deed and Decay would make it not something that should scare us.

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I guess it is a combo predator rather than anything else.
One guy playing it made day 2.
It should be considered as another tempo deck (with delver etc...) without the red splash but a black splash.
Lightning bolt have been dismissed for "reanimate".

If you face this deck, be careful, being at 12 you are in his oneshot kill range (a bit like U/R Young delver)...

And YES this deck is very weak to "burn" in general as the lowest HP you have the bigger you strike with it.
I saw a match where the guy was attacking with 2 death shadow 1/1; his opponent did not dare to block and took 18 damages after 2 dismember were resolved. Pretty scary.

Updated OP with Pod lists. Two SCG Top16s should be enough to warrant that. Currently BUG Pod, Scapewish and Fire are the three most most successful versions of the deck, right?

I was diddling around with Death's Shadow earlier this year. It's a blowout kinda deck, but it's similar to combo in that it folds pretty easily. Getting a Swords to Plowshares pointed at one Shadow kills all Shadows in play.

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Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

I was diddling around with Death's Shadow earlier this year. It's a blowout kinda deck, but it's similar to combo in that it folds pretty easily. Getting a Swords to Plowshares pointed at one Shadow kills all Shadows in play.

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That's actually hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Updated OP with Pod lists. Two SCG Top16s should be enough to warrant that. Currently BUG Pod, Scapewish and Fire are the three most most successful versions of the deck, right?

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It seems so. For those of you willing to hear the point of view of an external Nic Fit player, I just wrote this- nothing that you already don't know, but it may be nice to read one more time. In this article I review briefly those three variants putting emphasis on their advantages and disadvantages, with Punishing Fit being imo the one that's most well suited for this metagame.

Clicky

In italian, use an online translator to get most of the meaning.

EDIT: here's the page already translated:
Clicky_eng

After watching my local legacy event (I have a catacombs.... somewhere..... where I dont know, but I need it.), I started thinking about something.

How is our lands match-up(On punishing fit, but other versions as well)? Im thinking about how I would board for it.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

After watching my local legacy event (I have a catacombs.... somewhere..... where I dont know, but I need it.), I started thinking about something.

How is our lands match-up(On punishing fit, but other versions as well)? Im thinking about how I would board for it.

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Ooze is our friend. Since the stage/depths combo, I tend to have more difficult with it (I was running the junk wish version). Extraction effects are key after board. Discard isn't as good. With the scapewish version I have a copy of From the Ashes for this reason.

Could golden wish have a place in white versions? Having access to nether void, humility, batterskull and/or deed pre-sideboarding could be nice, though 5 mana is a lot.

Wow that wish is 5 mana? Seems terrible. Burning wish is just better

I agree with 0 or 4 brainstorms. Playing 3 brainstorms is just retarded.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Wow that wish is 5 mana? Seems terrible. Burning wish is just better

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5 mana is annoying, but this is a ramp deck. You can't compare it to burning wish because they are different colors and fetch different things. Not recommending golden yet, but it could be a possibility.

At least with burning wish though you can actually cast the spell you get the same turn that you get it.

Again, you can't compare it to burning wish.

Obviously, it would only be a 1- or 2-of, giving the deck game against combo before sideboarding.

I'm not seeing how a 5 CMC spell that simply tutors, doesn't even cast the spell, is good vs combo.

Top 8'd Mythic's monthly legacy today with Scape. Only change from the Champs list was -1 Rakdos Return in the board for +1 From the Ashes. Report on Monday, as usual.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I'm not seeing how a 5 CMC spell that simply tutors, doesn't even cast the spell, is good vs combo.

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It gives you access to things you would not normally have access to preboard. Against combo you need to disrupt them until you can lock them out of the game. However, there is nothing currently in the main board of white version that can lock combo out of the game.

I'm worried about the combo matchup g1, is all.

Got to play a legacy tournament for the first time in 13 months. Back from the desolate North Dakota. Played 4 rounds with Arianrhods scapeshift version. 3-1-0 for 2nd place. 7-3 for games.
I played damnation in the sb over deluge (don't own it), and instead of rakdos return I played a Thrun.
Round 1: Death and Taxes, was able to win 2-0. I think he had the possibility to win each game if he happened to make every correct choice every turn, though I don't know if they would have been arguably the best lines at each juncture. Lots of wastelands, porting, vialing, sfm equip choices, and combat. Got down as low as 4 vs. a crusader before sticking a huntmaster and then scaping for the win. Luckily he does not have any cataclysm in his sb. He does have a number of mindcensors but never sees one. I eventually scape him to death again in game 2.
Edit- I did not draw a Valukut in either game, and if I had drawn one or both it is likely I would have lost the game with a chance at the match. Also, my g1 lethal scape found every last mountain in the deck to trigger valakut and do lethal.

Round 2: Rug Delver, he keeps a disruption heavy hand but no threat. I stick a vet while he lands tarm. He stifles, I get another vet, some lands and then land a thrag. I draw scape with a top in play and close to lethal, then see a burning 3 down. Next turn I draw burning and put a land on top. Get seize, coast is clear. Tap to draw the land and lethal with scape.
Game 2: He goes delver. Flip, delver, delver. Flip, Flip. I had enough time and life to either play my damnation or deeds. I opted for damnation and he forced. He also had the stifle for my deeds. GG.
Game 3: I survive off an active carpet that gave me 1, then 2 and 3 mana a turn with a deed in play but only 2 lands. Blast a delver and we each sit around for a while. He brainstorm fetches, ponder + shuffle, redraws ponder, etc all looking for threats. Was able to maneuver my resources with the small game while eventually triggering a vet in combat that gave me the momentum to manifest resources for a lethal scapeshift in turn 1 of time. What made this game easy was that he only saw tarms and geese, no 2nd delver. So my vets, elders and woods gave me infinite time and resources. We could have played faster but I had not seen him in over a year.

Round 3: Bant mystic with vial. I play cabal on t2 naming thalia. Miss, he shows me sfm, war monk and geist. He plays sfm and gets batterskull. I draw a 2nd cabal, play a land and gsz for vet then fb and hit batterskull. Then hardcast my second and hit geist. Leisurely kill him with scape before his monk can tug him over 30 life. Game 2 I trigger some green creatures in combat and scape him out on turn 6.

Round 4: BUG cascade. GEEEZ. First time playing vs this deck. So much stuff culminating in card advantage. He sticks a jace and possibly liliana. Cascades and gets goyfs. I deed at some point but his land card in hand was FOW to stop be from doing something relevant with my last card (wish or scape). Game 2 I exile his jaces and hit a bunch of land drops. He has a liliana and 1 3/2 unblockable land. I slowly hemorrhage life and we get hellbent. I manage to get enough red sources to trigger my valakut and kill his liliana, then draw huntmaster, then draw gsz for Prime Time that wins me the race vs. 2 unblockable lands. Game 3 he is going first and sticks an unmolested jace. I extract his tarm, he plays some cascade bears but bricks on his flips. I start getting jaced, then liliana'd. I still have outs, as I have a bunch of lands in play. He epic lily's me, but I STILL have outs with jace at 12 as I am only getting beat by a 2/2 and was at 12 life. I can draw reb or 2 burning wishes for pulse with 32 cards left in my deck. Find an ewitness. Lose.

I sb'd out slaughter games my first 3 matches but did not mind them MD because I won regardless. Thrun was fine vs. the field and I never really wished I had the rakdos return.

Very enjoyable deck, could not believe how fast I could close games out. I am used to the slow versions of the deck that play 2 ewitness and rec nightmare to win eventually. This deck could easily topdeck wins out of no where. It was pretty wild to have a sdt in play, a shuffle effect and know that I have 6 cards in my deck that result in GG.

SB vs Delver: -4 cabal, -2 slaughter, -1 prime time, -1 burning wish: +1 innocent blood, +1 damnation, +3 carpet of flowers, +2 reb, +1 thrun. I liked how this felt post board. Triggering my vet was often tough or impossible, though unless he was hitting me with delver he can't win on the ground without stifles which opens up the 4 fetches and deeds. Prime seems win more and the deck probably only wants to see 1 burning wish (for clasm, pulse, or lethal scape) so that was trimmed.

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Originally Posted by conboy31

SB vs Delver: -4 cabal, -2 slaughter, -1 prime time, -1 burning wish: +1 innocent blood, +1 damnation, +3 carpet of flowers, +2 reb, +1 thrun. I liked how this felt post board. Triggering my vet was often tough or impossible, though unless he was hitting me with delver he can't win on the ground without stifles which opens up the 4 fetches and deeds. Prime seems win more and the deck probably only wants to see 1 burning wish (for clasm, pulse, or lethal scape) so that was trimmed.

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Don't side out Therapies against RUG. I did that once, too, and it is wrong. They protect you from Stifle. Side out the Huntmasters instead, they are not good against RUG. Siding in all the good Wish targets seems bad, too, because it makes the Wishes bad. With Arian's list I'd side like this against RUG:

- 3 Huntmaster
- 2 Slaughter Games
+ 3 Carpet
+ 2 Red Blast

I was on the fence about the wish, but will defend my choices a little more. I could be convinced I am wrong. I don't think I want to draw more than 2 wishes. 1.5 is ideal. 1 to clean up rugs threats and maybe 1 to close out the game.
The 2 mana and defer my turn (unless I am getting innocent blood) is a dangerous tempo loss vs. their efficient threats. Because of that I really only want 1 or 2 ways to wish and kill their creatures. Of that, I think damnation in the MD is correct because I probably need to resolve it the turn I would be wishing for it. Additionally, the innocent blood gives me 3 turn 1 answers to delver, and 1 to goose (should I choose to take this route). The leftovers are pyroclasm for unthresh'd geese and delvers, and pulse for multiple delvers and goyfs. Then, the scape for the win.

I would need more testing with cabal vs. rug, though I am inclined to believe you as I know you have stayed current in magic during my furlough. They are obviously particularly relevant on the play when they can't brainstorm and daze.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

Could golden wish have a place in white versions? Having access to nether void, humility, batterskull and/or deed pre-sideboarding could be nice, though 5 mana is a lot.

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I would first consider Glittering Wish instead Golden Wish. Here is why. First, for two mana instead of five, it will give you access to Deed. Second, if you think having something like nether void in the turn after you pay 5 for Golden Wish is necessary or useful (in which scenario your opponent will probably have the mana to just ignore nether void), then i think dovescape will accomplish a better result, being castable by glittering wish virtually on the same turn that Nether void. Third, it will give access to cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Golgari Charm, Gerrad's Verdict, Castigate, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage and Gaddock Tegg. Also, with a little splash for blue, you could go with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Meddling Mage. And, of course, any multicolored planeswalker you could see fitting in your strategy. It may be a little stretchy on the manabase, but this would be a much better package against combo and other annoying stuff then the one that Golden Wish can provide. That being said, I still think Glittering Wish is too slow and narrow to being worth it.

I just think 5 mana on turn 3 at the earliest, then having to wait a turn to cast the hate card , is just too slow. I mean what would your wish targets be anyway?

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Originally Posted by conboy31

I would need more testing with cabal vs. rug, though I am inclined to believe you as I know you have stayed current in magic during my furlough. They are obviously particularly relevant on the play when they can't brainstorm and daze.

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They are really mostly to combat Stifle. If you can get something else out of it that is of course great but Stifle is their far and away best card against Nic Fit. Countering Explorer triggers is a strong play but especially countering a Deed trigger is a huge blowout and one of the ways to lose this matchup because you trade 5 mana for 1. Brainstorm is not that much of a problem for Therapy as normal because hiding the Stifle won't help them against a Deed on the board.

Also, Huntmaster is a weak card against them. I think this is the only matchup in which I side Huntmasters out. They just randomly don't match up against their cards. Huntmaster can't trade with Goyf, he can't block Delver and the Token you get can't trade with a Goose. Flipping is highly unlikely, too. All it does is trade with a Bolt and the 2/2 chump blocker it leaves behind is not relevant enough to justify the mana investment. Tusk on the other hand for just one more mana gains 3 more life, potentially trades with Goyf and the Token it leaves behind when Bolted is big enough to trade with Goose.

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

That's what I've settled on after playing the matchup a bit. Boarding out 1 Explorer seems a little odd, but with the full 7 1-drop accelerators in the deck, you can have draws where you just get literally mana and die. I find 6 turn-1 ramp plays to be sufficient. If you really disagree with cutting a Vet (which I can understand, I'm still not 100% on it...just like, 90%), then I would suggest cutting a Sakura-Tribe or a Wood Elves.

I like the ability to Wish for a Therapy, since the 2 life from Thoughtseize can really hurt in this matchup, and sometimes they have more than 1 copy of something that you don't like.

I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Primeval Titan should just be a 3rd Thragtusk (or some other option). I board it out fairly frequently. Every now and then it'll steal a win, but some other card [x] could also be able to steal that win, or prevent me from getting into that situation in the first place. Vs tempo it's right to board it out because most of the time you either don't need, won't get to the mana to play it, or it's just irrelevant.

Laughter Games is an obvious board out.

I wouldn't touch Huntmaster here, although I do typically board out one vs UWR Delver.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

That's what I've settled on after playing the matchup a bit. Boarding out 1 Explorer seems a little odd, but with the full 7 1-drop accelerators in the deck, you can have draws where you just get literally mana and die. I find 6 turn-1 ramp plays to be sufficient. If you really disagree with cutting a Vet (which I can understand, I'm still not 100% on it...just like, 90%), then I would suggest cutting a Sakura-Tribe or a Wood Elves.

I like the ability to Wish for a Therapy, since the 2 life from Thoughtseize can really hurt in this matchup, and sometimes they have more than 1 copy of something that you don't like.

I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Primeval Titan should just be a 3rd Thragtusk (or some other option). I board it out fairly frequently. Every now and then it'll steal a win, but some other card [x] could also be able to steal that win, or prevent me from getting into that situation in the first place. Vs tempo it's right to board it out because most of the time you either don't need, won't get to the mana to play it, or it's just irrelevant.

Laughter Games is an obvious board out.

I wouldn't touch Huntmaster here, although I do typically board out one vs UWR Delver.

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I have been Goldfishing with scapewish for a bit now and I tend to agree that Primetime seems unneeded in scapewish (but needed in the p. Fire version). More life gain: Finks vs. Tusk? Beats: Thrun or Avenger? One of batterskull? More beats?

I'm struggling against the new TA delver/TNN. This deck is a real pain. Between flipped delver, tarmo, TNN, discard and counterspell, I just cannot get through the early turns and each time I could wipe the board, a TS take the deed away and I feel naked like a baby...

Even post board, this deck is a nightmare.

My current Punishing Fire list:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain


Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless


I was thinking of cutting 1 Grove of the Burnwillows and replacing it with a second Forest, to dodge Blood Moon.dec a little better.

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Originally Posted by Nithkar

I would first consider Glittering Wish instead Golden Wish. Here is why. First, for two mana instead of five, it will give you access to Deed. Second, if you think having something like nether void in the turn after you pay 5 for Golden Wish is necessary or useful (in which scenario your opponent will probably have the mana to just ignore nether void), then i think dovescape will accomplish a better result, being castable by glittering wish virtually on the same turn that Nether void. Third, it will give access to cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Golgari Charm, Gerrad's Verdict, Castigate, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage and Gaddock Tegg. Also, with a little splash for blue, you could go with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Meddling Mage. And, of course, any multicolored planeswalker you could see fitting in your strategy. It may be a little stretchy on the manabase, but this would be a much better package against combo and other annoying stuff then the one that Golden Wish can provide. That being said, I still think Glittering Wish is too slow and narrow to being worth it.

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You seem to think I'd be building my deck around it. I wouldn't. I would put it in an existing white version to give it access to nether void, humility, and batterskull pre-sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I just think 5 mana on turn 3 at the earliest, then having to wait a turn to cast the hate card , is just too slow. I mean what would your wish targets be anyway?

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See above. Basically, the cards I use to win the game.

pfire, go for it and try it a few games. I am confident that you will eventually completely dismiss the card. 3WW do nothing is simply not playable. It can't be green sun'd and it is a sorcery (that does not scale like green sun, ie 2 through 6 mana) that will possibly eat a dead daze or spell pierce. Baneslayer beats most other creatures like humility does, gives you as much life as batterskull would and nether void is irrelevant. 3WW pass the turn against combo (I assume?) and not die again, don't get hit by a duress/cabal/thoughtseize or silence/chant, resolve nether void, go... seems unlikely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

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The Therapy makes sense. On second thought, siding out one or both Scapeshifts instead of the Huntmasters could be right, too.

But how on earth could you possibly side Explorer out and keep Wood Elves in? Makes no sense.

Mythic Report:

Round 1: 43 Lands

Game one: I'm sick, and I derp. I was warned by a friend ahead of time that this guy was playing Lands. I keep a perfectly reasonable hand that has absolutely no ramp, and as a result can't race his Dark Depths. Realize after it's too late that I could have Burning Wished for From the Ashes, because I forgot that I put that in my sideboard. Good start to the day. To be fair, he had the Exploration -> double Gamble opener, and was really quick to combo.

Game two: I remember that From the Ashes is a card in my 76. I Wish for it and blow up a fistful of lands. I then Top into a Slaughter Games and remove his Loams, and then Zenith for E.Wit to Ashes him again. Without Loams, this time the Ashes is fatal, and he dies to random dork beatdown (like a Wood Elves, a Vet, and the Witness casually lava axing him every turn).

Game three: I Ashes him, and then I Ashes him again. I never see a Slaughter this game, though, so he's able to consistently recover thanks to his 1-of basic Forest. I get him to 7, though, by repeatedly multi-time-walking him, and force him to Glacial Chasm. He Time Walks me twice with it, then has to let the Chasm go at 1 life. He slams O-Stone on his second turn therein, and then attempts to play a Mox Diamond to get him to the 5 mana to blow it. I respond to the Diamond by Deeding for 3, which wipes out all of board except for a Thragtusk. He Transmutes Tolaria West for a Maze of Ith and triumphantly passes the turn. I draw Scapeshift, and he dies.

***of note, folks***: I was able to From the Ashes TWICE in game 3, and still had more than enough mountains left over to Shift FTW. With 4 fetches in my deck. I think we have a winner.

Round 2: Elves

Game one: I know exactly what he's playing, and he knows exactly what I'm playing. He wins the die roll. I keep a hand with Therapy and Deed. I miss my Therapy (called Natural Order). He Glimpses off with Birchlore + Nettle Sentinel, and kills me.

Game two: I wrath him approximately 3 or 4 times, and he can't deal with Huntmasters.

Game three: I mull to 5, and keep Therapy, Therapy, Thoughtseize, Veteran, Scapeshift. Naturally I draw Badlands on my first turn, and proceed the hail of discard. I tear his hand apart, and get some good blind names that keep me in it. He ends up having to go beatdown with 3 Elves, because that's all he has left. I finally hit a green source, and leave up the Vet as a blocker. I end up with a board state of 6 lands in play, with Scapeshift in hand vs his 3 Elves. I'm somewhere around 90% to win on my next draw step -- only something like Slaughter Games, Therapy, Thoughtseize causes me to not win. Top lets me win. Explorer, Zenith, any ramp guy lets me win. Land lets me win. Etc. He draws one of the two remaining Natural Orders left in his deck for his turn (I'd discarded one earlier), Orders for Hoof, and kills me. Sick life.

Round 3: UWR Delver

Game one: Uhhhhhh stuff. The only notable thing I remember is that I cast a Slaughter Games into his active Stoneforge + 2 lands, and he derped and said "it resolves," which let me take his Batterskull. He knew better -- was just having an off day. Like I looked at him and was like, really? Really? As the board state evolved, it wouldn't have mattered if he had remembered to Vial it in -- I would have named Force instead, and then two turns later I Shifted for 36 -- he couldn't have gained enough life even with the Batterskull active.

Game two: Stuff happens, he dies. Note that he didn't see a True-Name in either of these games despite having three of them in his deck. Not sure it would have mattered had he seen one, but figured it was worth mentioning.

Round 4: BUG Delver

Game one: He makes a Delver, it dies, he makes a Tombstalker, it dies, I beat him to death with Huntmasters and Thragtusks.

Game two: I'm sick, and apparently forget to board out Slaughter Games. Derp. I learn that he has Stifle in his deck as he draws a bajillion of them and slows me way down between that and Wasteland. I use a Carpet of Flowers to Deed away a Tombstalker (#achievement). He chains Goyf into Goyf into Delver with no cards in hand (runner runner runner). I blow up the first Goyf, and wall his second with a Tusk for a few turns. On my last turn of life, I draw one of those Slaughter Games I forgot to board out. Awkward.

Game three: I adjust my board correctly, and shuffle up. I'm sick, though, and I forget to take out the Pyroclasm that I wished for last game -- as made immediately apparent when I draw it in my opening hand. I say fuck it and keep -- it's a 1-lander (mono Stomping Grounds) with Explorer, Pyroclasm, and a bunch of good stuff. My deck decides to be gracious and doesn't punish me -- I draw a Carpet of Flowers. He makes a Delver and a Deathrite Shaman. I draw a land, play it, play that Pyroclasm that I didn't board out, setting off Explorer and wrathing him. From there it's the Huntmaster and Thragtusk show again. Pretty sure I won this game because I forgot to board out that Pyroclasm. How fucking awkward is that.

Round 5: Burn

We ID into the top 8 -- it's a clean cut where all of the 9-pointers and up can just draw. I'm not incredibly worried, but I've played vs this guy a few times now and I know he knows a few tricks about playing vs Scape with Burn, so I don't REALLY want to play this matchup. And since we can all ID and be happy, there's no reason to.

Top 8: Junk

Top 8 agrees to split and we all go home, which is good because I feel like death itself at this point. At least I had a favorable matchup if someone had decided to play it out.

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Thoughts on the current iteration of the deck:

I never used From the Ashes outside of vs my 43 lands opponent. That matchup, however, proved to me that Ashes is a viable option for Scapewish. Most of the time you're playing towards basics anyway, so Ashes doesn't actually kill that many of your lands. Usually like a Bayou and 1-2 mountain duals. Then, you get 1 basic Mountain with Ashes usually, which means you have ~8-9 mountains left in deck. Unless you get really unlucky, that should be enough. Just make sure you're fetching basics where possible.

I'm unconvinced Ashes is the correct card for that sideboard slot, though, at the same time. I mean, obviously it did a ton of work in the lands matchup, but that isn't really something that I'm worried about sideboarding for. It suffers from the Haunting Echoes problem, namely, that if you would ever wish for it you usually would rather just wish for Scapeshift and kill them dead.

The more I think about it, the more I want to cut Primeval Titan. It's not like in Punishing where he gets your engines rolling / turbo'd. Not sure what I want to put in this slot yet.

I haven't missed Phyrexian Tower even once, and my previous sporadic manabase problems have all but completely evaporated since going up to 4 fetches. Top feels stronger than ever, as well. I still obsess about not having that 12th mountain, but I can live with it. Even if it's scary at times, I think that 11 mountains is correct and a good trade-off for the increased consistency.

Maindeck Laughter Games have continued to be acceptable. It feels good to not be dead to combo game one, and the sideboard space that it opened up is greatly appreciated. Furthermore, it makes it much more likely that you're going to win game 1 against Miracles, which is usually important since a 1-0-1 result is still a win for the round. Just remember to sideboard them out vs fair matchups =.=

I'll update the link in my sig with the most recent Scapewish list.

If anyone has any thoughts on what that open slot (Primeval) should be, now's the time to express them. I'm expecting a meta composed primarily of the following 8 decks at the GP:

Miracles
Sneak
Storm
Jund
Death and Taxes
UWx Blade
UWR Delver
RUG Delver

I consider Scapewish favored against everything on that list except Storm. I also don't think that Storm is fixable with 1 slot, so I'm willing to accept that as a throw-away where I just need to get lucky. Obviously there's a high chance of other decks besides those 8, because GP and people will play whatever they can get their hands on / whatever they want. But, yeah.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Carpet of Flowers is DA BOMB. Seriously.
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@Tao, I had some weird logic in my head where the Wood Elves was better to leave in than the Veteran because of Stifle or Submerge or something, but the more I thought it through while trying to argue the point, the more I realized I was just wrong. You're right -- one of the Wood Elves should be the 5th board-out.