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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Went 3-1-1 at the GP side event today playing R/W.
1-2 Burn (rough mulligans in all 3 games)
2-0 Punishing Maverick
1-1 Ponder Miracles
2-0 Doomsday
2-0 Lossett Miracles
Not having played Taxes for a while and never playing Comp REL, I got 2 GRV's for forgetting about Thalia in Rounds 1 and 3 (completely my fault, I got a bit loose upstairs) and when I tried to use Rishadan Port with a Humility and Magus of the Moon out - which doesn't work as it turns out- my 3rd GRV gave me a game loss, and thus ended the match in a draw. I thought it was a bit heavy-handed given that the Judge watching had to look up the rule on his phone but eh, them's the breaks.
I'd won a really good game 1 after about 40 minutes and the judge ruling happened during "turns" (time limit had run out) so game 3 never happened. My opponent was nowhere close to winning which makes it even more frustrating, although I appreciate that rules are rules and knowing the rules is just as important as building/playing your deck.
Anyway, the list:
4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Fireslinger
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Warping Wail
List was pretty cool, I liked having the 2nd Crusader in the board and Warping Wail was great, although I could see only playing 2 and having something for burn. I fucking hate that deck.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Played Imperial Recruiter several times in side events over the weekend of GP Detroit, loved the list and did fairly well but I do think the Flagstones need to go. Having 4 actual Plains main is better than the benefit from a Flagstones being destroyed. My sb accidentally had. P&K Nalar in it because I got some sleeved cards mixed up, but it was a rock star every time I brought it in.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Yeah, I don't think any RW list can afford any copy of Flagstones. You don't need to be running Cataclysm/Geddeon SB effects anyway since the maindeck is better vs Miracles already and any Lands-based-decks are now favored due to Magus.
Also, flipped Delver now has converted mana cost of 1:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...trad-mechanics
Relevant for us as Ratchet Bomb gets marginally less appealing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Yeah, I don't think any RW list can afford any copy of Flagstones. You don't need to be running Cataclysm/Geddeon SB effects anyway since the maindeck is better vs Miracles already and any Lands-based-decks are now favored due to Magus.
Agreed, completely. Though, I think I'll still run a Cataclysm in the board as a wrath effect along with two or three Sudden Demise as sweepers.
Odd thought, at there any creatures with Horsemanship worth playing as an 'unblockable' attacker, or is it just not worth it?
Update: Planning on hitting a local this Sunday with an Unlimited Timetwister for 1st and duals down through the top 8. This is what I'm on currently, but I'd appreciate some advice and comments. The local meta is all over the place and generally fairly wide open, so anything could be expected to show up.
4 Flickerwisp
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sudden Demise
1 Cataclysm
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rachet Bomb
1 Manriki-Gusari
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The only horsemanship creature that isn't behind curve is the 2W 2/2. Regular flying creatures serve as both evasion + blockers for Delvers etc. - so a 2/2 vanilla flyer is probably a little stronger than a vanilla 2/2 with horsemanship.
Suggestions for your deck:
- Swap the Nalaars to the sideboard for the 3rd Magus. Magus is best in g1s and gets worse in grindier games where they can fetch basics, Nalaars are very good in grindier g2/g3 where you want pure value cards - but worse in fast g1s where you want mana denial and cards you can actually cast.
- Swap Manriki-Gusari for a Leonin Relic-Warder. While generally not as good vs D+T (though sometimes it will be t2 nab their Vial, game over) and definitely not as good vs Stoneblade, it can come in for a lot of other matches beyond those two.
- Not everyone likes Wingmare as much as I do, but I find that having at least one to fetch when you want it to be useful. Lets you fetch something with evasion, block a Delver in a pinch, or set up a Thalia/stax game. You could cut one Flickerwisp or only play 2 Maguses main to make room for it.
Overall I don't think you're playing any bad cards and I would feel fine showing up to a tournament with that list.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The meta is on the verge of a major shakeup, I think. I bet that Thing in the Ice is the real deal. I also think that Flickerwisp is the bane of the card as it flies over the ice and screws with their tempo afterward, especially with a Vial. But Eldrazi looks strong also. Between the two some decks are going to get squeezed out. I don't want it to be this one. Does anyone have any updated info on the Eldrazi matchup? There are so many more versions now than when I was testing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Does anyone have any updated info on the Eldrazi matchup? There are so many more versions now than when I was testing.
I played against Eldrazi multiple times over the weekend and never once felt at all behind. I was playing r/w though, and Magus of the Moon is the serious deal in that game. Keeping them off Sol Land mana and Revokering their slow answers is just good, and Jitte is outstanding to deal with Mimics
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Does anyone have any updated info on the Eldrazi matchup? There are so many more versions now than when I was testing.
I will say as someone who really thought this was a bad matchup, I now want to concur with the consensus that this is a slightly favored matchup. Not by much, but still favored. I went to fnm and played it on a feature match and won 2-1. I made some embarrassing misplays in games 2 and 3 and still won the match. I think a few key points to understand are that wasting and denying them on mana is a great strategy early in the game as they're far more mana starved than you would think. You also can just flood the board and go wide against them and they really can't punish you in any way for it as they have, at best, 6 removal spells.
I would say the goal vs them is to, if possible, keep them from casting anything above 4 mana. All their cards that cost <4 are just bad and not worth worrying about. Sure chalice is just going to get us sometimes but most of the time it doesn't warp our gameplan that much. When it comes to equipment jitte and batterskull are great but I think jitte is the best. One last thing to note is this: Wingmare builds simply cannot win. If you are preparing for eldrazi at all then you should be playing a build with crusaders and avengers. I played both vs eldrazi and the difference is LARGE.
Don't know if any of this information is new aside from the thought process of going after their lands as much as possible (someone said only waste eye and I totally disagree), but I felt it was worth throwing in my two cents.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The Eldrazi matchup is good for us I think. I am playing mono-white D&T with playset of Vryn Wingmare and even with this list, that over paper seems bad to fight Eldrazi, is a really favorable matchup.
5-1 is actually my record against Eldrazi. Only lost a round in wich my opponent found pretty frecuently his copies of Umezawa's Jitte and multiple Phyrexian Revokers as well, but I have won games against them even eating 3 Thought-Knot Seer or other games racing a Seer and a couple of Reality Smasher.
I think D&T is one of the best decks to race in the format, so I don't find reasons to worry about this matchup.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I find the matchup annoying because, even while statistically favored overall (especially for RW), their very good hands don't give you much opportunity to outplay them. The game feels super dependent on whether or not they drew a very powerful opening 7, t2 Thought Knot Seer being the most brutal opening.
Your 8 most important cards (Vial/STP) may or may not be castable on the draw due to Chalice. G1 if you have a 7 card hand with a Vial, STP, 2 lands and 3 creatures, it might either be a fantastic hand or a not great hand, and it's totally gonna be due to dumb luck. You can't mull that hand, but the hand is like 65% to win if they don't have it and 35% if they do and there's roughly a 40% chance they'll have it. In other games, you'll draw zero 0 drops and they'll draw into multiple Chalices and you have an easy game of magic against a bunch of dead cards.
Racing them becomes much easier when they have Ancient Tomb hands. Sometimes they do and you get 8 free damage and the fact that they're hitting with bigger creatures barely matters since you need to do so little damage. Other times they don't and they get to curve out painlessly. SfM for Batterskull is generally very good, sometimes they have Thought Knot Seer and you now have a Squire. Other times they don't, and you win.
Wasteland their Eye of Ugin can win the game - or they can just play the second Eye of Ugin that was stuck in their hand and you've lost tempo in the race. Kinda like the STP/Vial keep, this is one of those 'right decisions' that you nevertheless end up getting brutally punished for a certain % of the time.
None of these events happen consistently so you can't plan any game or sideboard strategy around it. The only constant is that their mana is greedy - if the deck remains as popular as it was during the last SCG Open, I might try and squeeze 4 Magus in my 75, since Magus is a haymaker that also is great against lots of other decks.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I am king of the spice, and played some more test games against eldrazi, trying out Fiend Hunter and Preacher. I was actually able to win with Preacher after OP gave me an Eldrazi mimic and i equipped it with Batterskull. Finally lost the mimic and equipped Preacher with the Batterskull, which was awesome because i could attack with vigilance, then still tap to steal a creature when he played one.
Sometimes their turn two is a monster: Eye of Ugin, Mimic, Mimic, tap Tomb for a TKS. I am not running Wingmares when I go to Indy. More Avengers, likely.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
This got spoiled. Not sure what to think. Might be too cute. Opinions?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...4b30b718a6.jpg
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p_spk
This got spoiled. Not sure what to think. Might be too cute. Opinions?
I think it's still better to rely on SoF&I to draw cards when you need it, most of the time your mana is tied up in shutting theirs down, and taking a turn off to pay 2W to get a Squire and draw a card isn't really worth it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I bet that Thing in the Ice is the real deal. I also think that Flickerwisp is the bane of the card as it flies over the ice and screws with their tempo afterward, especially with a Vial. .
I have to disagree here. As much as I love the flavor of that card, I don't think it's going to see much play (if any) in legacy. The bouncing effect suggests "control", but this card is a horrible topdeck, which is something control decks generally dislike. And once it flips, it's a big dumb vanilla beater with no evasion, a young pyromancer/monastery mentor/baleful strix/mother of runes is gonna make it look pretty silly. Sure, it will usually be able to get a free hit in, but its fragility lack of speed make it unfit for aggressive decks imo. Considering it requires some investment, dying to every removal spell in the format but bolt (including warping wail) is also not the best qualification. Unless some deck can really break the bounce effect, this is basically just a bigger, slower, overall much worse, tarmogoyf.
If I am proven wrong and this does become a thing, then we shouldn't worry too much as DnT players, as we can plow it, flicker it back into the ice, fly over it, lock it with mom, evade/block it with sofi, race it with batterskull, mangara it away, and so on and so forth. Also worth noting that it doesn't bounce revoker, which might be very relevant if it ends up in a combo/control shell.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think the Inspector will be a pretty solid limited card. It might see fringe Standard play.
Very much not playable in Modern and Legacy. Even if it were 1/2 W that cantripped immediately and for free, we don't have a deck that can abuse that outside out Flickerwisp, and the drawback of worse-mulligan-decisions is not insignificant when you're one of the only strong legacy decks with no card filtering. D+T is not gonna out value the value decks, so it's better to just make sure they can't actually cast their value cards.
I think Thing is 'a real card' but whatever shell is built around it won't be strong against D+T since it's going to be blue cantrip heavy and creature light.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think Thing in the Ice could be legit in a Storm sideboard card, they would be happy with just the bounce as well as the early blocker. I'm sure it will at least be tested.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Yo, actually registered here a few days ago. But I have been reading this thread for a while though. Nice record at the Open by the way, congratulations!
I played against Eldrazis, Shardless BUG, Miracles, Grixis Delver and Grixis Delver w/ Decays. My feelings about the sideboard:
- Path was nice to take in against everything else than Miracles but didn't feel necessary in the end.
- Containment Priest was not needed in these matches, but I think it's still a must since it locks N. Order from Elves (which is almost always a gg) and is good against many other decks as well.
- I usually have 4 Canonists in the 75 since it's just so good against Storm and does something against Elves and Infect as well. Didn't need them much in this run, but I did board some of them in against Miracles for some reason.
- I don't think I have to explain the reason for the RiPs. I don't know if 2 copies would be enough, but 3 copies have felt right everytime during boarding and while playing.
- Tested 3 Holy Lights since there's a higher probability of drawing one and a white source than drawing a Sudden Demise and a red source. Mainly against Elves. Did board these in against Pyromancer decks to see if it would do anything against the deck, but they just got Cabal Therapied away. I think Demise is still better even though there are fewer color sources for it. Against Infect it costs 1 less to cast (Daze), kills flipped Delver, kills DRS & Nettle Sentinel against Elves.
- The third Magus in the board helped a lot in this run. Have considered running 4 in the 75 because there's so many Eldrazis in MtGO currently. Otherwise I think 3 is enough.
- This time I played Oblivion Ring over Council's Judgment because I added a Cavern to the manabase. Being a "removable removal" wasn't a drawback this time.
- SoWaP has been good against Miracles. It makes opponent to use a Terminus instead of a Plow if it has equipped successfully, assuming opponent doesn't have a Jace. Opponent can't also just simply Plow the creature it would equip because it could then equip another creature before combat. It also helps getting past Angel tokens and Mentor tokens if the race is on. I think it would be good in the mirror match too, but Jitte's way better. For now I think the card is not something to have in the board. Miracles is a very winnable match without it and it doesn't do much against anything else.
- Sparkmage has been great. Would play this over a Fireslinger anytime. The Fireslinger would be better in the opening hand, but you really can't mulligan into it and most of the time you will start the game without it in the opening hand. So the haste makes the difference. If you draw it later in the game, you don't have to wait a turn to use it if you wanted to. Or if you draw a Recruiter and don't have 6 mana it will still be active on the next turn, just like Fireslinger would be with 5 mana. Also its cmc 3 not 2, so it can be dropped out of Vial if Recruiter fetched it last turn that way.
After playing ~20 matches with that main I would register that 60 to a tournament with a confident feeling as well. Cavern feels like a reserve vial as you mentioned before and the three copies of them haven't really taxed me out of playing Plows or activating Mystics ability. But if I were to play Sudden Demises in the sideboard I would make one minor (or major) change. I'd change one Plains to a fetchland. Not to a Plateau since getting the basic before Magus can be important. Everytime one basic have been enough, but the concern is if you draw/fetch these three lands and still need more mana and then you start drawing those remaining fetches. At least I haven't lost to this yet while testing.
I'm currently playing this 15 in the board irl:
1 Containment Priest
1 Kor Firewalker (In MtGO I usually play something else than this.)
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sudden Demise
Played 100th match this week online and the current record with the archetype (Imperial) is 71-29, the biggest portion of the losses has been to Storm, Dredge and Elves. Some losses against Miracles and Eldrazis as well. Unfortunately can't tell much about win percentages against a certain deck since I haven't made that good notes of the matches. But I think Storm is close to 50/50 while Miracles and Eldrazis are favored for us. Delver decks feels fine as long as they don't start the game with three copies of the flipper. Dredge is almost like a match loss.
Also, this thread has been a pleasure to read so far. It's good that there's a thread like this for the archetype.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Just wanted to share some thoughts on Pia and Kiran, and why I play it in the mainboard.
Game 1 against combo-decks it's a blank card, but for all the rest there's mastercard erm, P+K. It's not a total dealbreaker for me though, because the DnT matchup against most combo decks is still very good in Game 1. Coming from Goblins, having 1 dead card against combo decks as opposed to 60 is still pretty nice.
I remember playing the deck before P+K was spoiled/released and finding that the major problem with Imperial Taxes was the lack of "Serra Avenger" in the deck. It would sometimes have trouble closing out games against grindy decks that had 4 Decay and 4 DRS, because once the equipment was dealt the rest of our deck was pretty crumby. I will say however that this was during the DTT meta where Mirran Crusader was absolutely abysmal so I'd cut it for that 1WW 2/2 First Strike, Pro Red/Pro Black dude. It was as bad as everyone told me it would be./end aside
Anyway, the point is that Pia and Kiran fulfils the "Serra Avenger" gap, providing tutorable flyers and also raw power, both in it's Siege Gang ability and with the nice interaction between itself and Karakas. There are also some decks that just really cannot beat it. Against all the deck's relying on Abrupt Decay to kill creatures, P+K is exempt. For their one or two Disfigures you have Mom, Karakas and any equipment. Meanwhile, you're playing Mirran Crusaders and Magus of the Moon.
Even in games where you mulligan severely (it happens in a deck with 9 colourless lands), P+K can pull you out of tight spots by becoming a DIY Lingering Souls. I don't usually find myself Recruiting for it until the late game, but there are times when it is just the best card in the deck, and it's usually in those tight spots.
It's also just hilariously good against Miracles, and after playing that matchup twice at the GP last weekend I'm in agreeance with Iatee that the matchup is just very good for R/W.
I apologise for the rambling nature of these thoughts, they are however just a collection of thoughts I've had over the past couple of days.
Also Battlefield Forge has been excellent in it's role as the 3rd Plateau and 10th colourless source. I think I've taken about 4 damage in total off that card over 15 or so matches I've played with it, both IRL and online.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi nmks, thanks for that detailed writeup and welcome to the thread. It's great to have another person here who has really played Imperial extensively and I'm happy to have other people testing the Cavern-heavy builds. I've had a lot of success with the list, the manabase looks insane greedy from the outside, but I've played enough games with it now that I have no doubts it's not just viable, it's quite good.
Cavern and Recruiter both serve to shore up some of the inherent weaknesses in D+T. Recruiter shores up the lack of card selection, Cavern shores up the fact that you don't always have Aether Vial in your opening hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nmks
SoWaP has been good against Miracles. It makes opponent to use a Terminus instead of a Plow if it has equipped successfully, assuming opponent doesn't have a Jace. Opponent can't also just simply Plow the creature it would equip because it could then equip another creature before combat. It also helps getting past Angel tokens and Mentor tokens if the race is on. I think it would be good in the mirror match too, but Jitte's way better. For now I think the card is not something to have in the board. Miracles is a very winnable match without it and it doesn't do much against anything else.
Yeah, Miracles is a matchup I'm happy to face, so I generally try not to waste too much SB space on it anymore. I think if you really, really never want to lose to Miracles you can throw the extra haymakers like SoWaP, but the G1 win % vs Miracles is so high that I really don't want to have a 'just for Miracles' type slot. SoWaP is fine in the mirror but not a true trump card like Manriki.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nmks
Sparkmage has been great. Would play this over a Fireslinger anytime. The Fireslinger would be better in the opening hand, but you really can't mulligan into it and most of the time you will start the game without it in the opening hand. So the haste makes the difference. If you draw it later in the game, you don't have to wait a turn to use it if you wanted to. Or if you draw a Recruiter and don't have 6 mana it will still be active on the next turn, just like Fireslinger would be with 5 mana. Also its cmc 3 not 2, so it can be dropped out of Vial if Recruiter fetched it last turn that way.
Yeah, the Vial on 3 argument is valid and I suspect that the differences are fairly minor overall, but Fireslinger is probably a tiny bit better vs Infect, while Sparkmage is better against most other decks. I'll try a Sparkmage for a while, I've mostly just never tested it because I don't have a physical copy at hand. Also it's less stylish than Fireslinger. But I believe you and I'll find a copy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nmks
Path was nice to take in against everything else than Miracles but didn't feel necessary in the end.
I've actually become more and more of a fan of this one-of over time. Kinda like how the Recruiter/Caverns shore up some of the inconsistencies, a 5th StP shores up the fact that you only play 4 removal spells and have no way to reliably draw into them. It's less about necessary and more about making the deck run more consistently in the fair creature matchups. I guess if you're playing O-Ring/Council's Judgment/etc. you have that additional effect anyway, though those aren't good against Infect and Burn, which are among the deck's worst matchups.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Just wanted to share some thoughts on Pia and Kiran, and why I play it in the mainboard.
Game 1 against combo-decks it's a blank card, but for all the rest there's mastercard erm, P+K. It's not a total dealbreaker for me though, because the DnT matchup against most combo decks is still very good in Game 1. Coming from Goblins, having 1 dead card against combo decks as opposed to 60 is still pretty nice.
I remember playing the deck before P+K was spoiled/released and finding that the major problem with Imperial Taxes was the lack of "Serra Avenger" in the deck. It would sometimes have trouble closing out games against grindy decks that had 4 Decay and 4 DRS, because once the equipment was dealt the rest of our deck was pretty crumby. I will say however that this was during the DTT meta where Mirran Crusader was absolutely abysmal so I'd cut it for that 1WW 2/2 First Strike, Pro Red/Pro Black dude. It was as bad as everyone told me it would be./end aside
Anyway, the point is that Pia and Kiran fulfils the "Serra Avenger" gap, providing tutorable flyers and also raw power, both in it's Siege Gang ability and with the nice interaction between itself and Karakas. There are also some decks that just really cannot beat it. Against all the deck's relying on Abrupt Decay to kill creatures, P+K is exempt. For their one or two Disfigures you have Mom, Karakas and any equipment. Meanwhile, you're playing Mirran Crusaders and Magus of the Moon.
Even in games where you mulligan severely (it happens in a deck with 9 colourless lands), P+K can pull you out of tight spots by becoming a DIY Lingering Souls. I don't usually find myself Recruiting for it until the late game, but there are times when it is just the best card in the deck, and it's usually in those tight spots.
It's also just hilariously good against Miracles, and after playing that matchup twice at the GP last weekend I'm in agreeance with Iatee that the matchup is just very good for R/W.
I apologise for the rambling nature of these thoughts, they are however just a collection of thoughts I've had over the past couple of days.
Also Battlefield Forge has been excellent in it's role as the 3rd Plateau and 10th colourless source. I think I've taken about 4 damage in total off that card over 15 or so matches I've played IRL and online.
Yeah, I've had success with the card out of the board and I don't think including it main is terrible or anything. It is a beast vs slow/fair decks and in some metas it's probably a great decision. It's definitely a lot of fun to play too.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hey guys,
I see Ratchet Bomb in a lot of SBs and am struggling to understand its inclusion. I'd assume it's good against DnT seeing as the deck is about board presence? What matchups is it for?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Hey guys,
I see Ratchet Bomb in a lot of SBs and am struggling to understand its inclusion. I'd assume it's good against DnT seeing as the deck is about board presence? What matchups is it for?
It puts in work against Young Pyromancer tokens and (for the time being) flipped Delvers. Anything that is cheap and can snowball early.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Dissection, generic sweeper cards like Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, and Engineered Explosives are good in DnT from time to time. But really, it is good against Elves (a problem matchup). Between the two, it commonly gets a spot in side boards.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Also good insurance vs Miracles angel tokens. In any case, with the rule change on flipped Delvers it seems pretty likely that a lot of people will drop it from their sideboards.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've been having some pretty decent success with this list over the past few weeks and I plan on taking it to a GPT on Sunday
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Magus of the Moon
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land: 22
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Side:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mother of Runes
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Cunning Sparkmage
3 Sudden Demise
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
There's something special to putting the Veteran Armorer into play off Vial in response to Toxic Deluge ^_^
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zebhillard
It puts in work against Young Pyromancer tokens and (for the time being) flipped Delvers. Anything that is cheap and can snowball early.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Dissection, generic sweeper cards like Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, and Engineered Explosives are good in DnT from time to time. But really, it is good against Elves (a problem matchup). Between the two, it commonly gets a spot in side boards.
Thanks for the answers. This is what a friend pointed out, but it seemed a bit narrow to me as tokens usually struggle against Batterskull. Elves seems like it's worth it though, what a nightmare matchup!
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fry
I've been having some pretty decent success with this list over the past few weeks and I plan on taking it to a GPT on Sunday
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Magus of the Moon
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land: 22
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Side:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mother of Runes
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Cunning Sparkmage
3 Sudden Demise
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
There's something special to putting the Veteran Armorer into play off Vial in response to Toxic Deluge ^_^
I like the radical choices here - 3 Moms, 3 SfM. I think Imperial has a lot of room to break w/ the orthodoxy. I think 3 Moms is most likely wrong, but I am not 100% sure that going down on SfM is incorrect when you have an extra 3 copies in Recruiter. I would suggest trying to squeeze in another copy of Cavern over a Plains. 4 is way more than you need. Looks like nmks even got it done the other day with his 1 plains build: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386756#paper
I think being *that* greedy will eventually get you punished either by drawing a double white card after Magus is out (nmks only has 4 in the 75 though) or having a land-light hand and getting Wasteland'd out by Lands/DnT/etc.
Are either of you guys reliably casting Sudden Demise? I stopped playing it because it just didn't come in for enough non-Elves matchups. Fry's build has 6 red sources, nmks's 8. The chances of drawing/mulling to Sudden Demise + red source twice in a row seem low enough that it's not worth it to use sideboard spots to try make one terrible match-up 50-50. Elves is probably in a pretty bad place right now due to Eldrazi anyway.
I feel the same way about Burn - at this point it's the only deck I think mono-white has a better matchup against (+ maybe Fish, which is still a positive matchup) but SB cards that destroy Burn are so narrow that I still don't like to include anything. Also Burn players are generally terrible, so why bother.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Looks like nmks even got it done the other day with his 1 plains build:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386756#paper
I think being *that* greedy will eventually get you punished either by drawing a double white card after Magus is out (nmks only has 4 in the 75 though) or having a land-light hand and getting Wasteland'd out by Lands/DnT/etc.
Are either of you guys reliably casting Sudden Demise? I stopped playing it because it just didn't come in for enough non-Elves matchups. Fry's build has 6 red sources, nmks's 8. The chances of drawing/mulling to Sudden Demise + red source twice in a row seem low enough that it's not worth it to use sideboard spots to try make one terrible match-up 50-50. Elves is probably in a pretty bad place right now due to Eldrazi anyway.
I feel the same way about Burn - at this point it's the only deck I think mono-white has a better matchup against (+ maybe Fish, which is still a positive matchup) but SB cards that destroy Burn are so narrow that I still don't like to include anything. Also Burn players are generally terrible, so why bother.
Almost always I have been able to cast it when I wanted to, but I'm starting to think the same way that the Demises are still not enough versus the Elves. So I'm considering dropping them off and playing more Plains's in the main again and something 'better' in the board.
So far I have been satisfied with only one basic, but way more often the amount of fetchable lands has been the problem. I said earlier that 1 Plains and 2 Plateau split would be the split I'd play with Demises in the board, but it has started to feel quite greedy just as you said. Not only because of opposing Wastelands but because of the dead fetches you'll draw later in the game.
I do agree so much with that last sentence. I actually think that Burn is a good deck, but usually the good players don't decide to pilot it. There's almost unlimited number of times I've heard/watched someone playing Burn and losing the match only because the pilot misplayed. Of course there are good players playing the deck as well, but not so often as you said.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Across formats, mono-red decks are generally played by a. new players b. budget players...and c. pure spikes. In various Standards and in Modern pre-Eldrazi you might play against a very good player playing mono-red / Burn, because they felt it was the deck that gave them the best chance at winning a given tournament. Legacy burn is t1.5ish - solid, but not a deck that ever gives you the best chance at winning a tournament, so the pure spikes in legacy are never gonna suit it up.
Other good players who are playing legacy cause they enjoy playing legacy are never gonna play it, because it's not actually fun to play. So that leaves the new players and budget players.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I would never ever trim a mother of runes. That card wins games. Lots of them. It is one of those cards that amplifies the deck and your skill with it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I like the radical choices here - 3 Moms, 3 SfM. I think Imperial has a lot of room to break w/ the orthodoxy. I think 3 Moms is most likely wrong, but I am not 100% sure that going down on SfM is incorrect when you have an extra 3 copies in Recruiter. I would suggest trying to squeeze in another copy of Cavern over a Plains. 4 is way more than you need. Looks like nmks even got it done the other day with his 1 plains build:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386756#paper
I think being *that* greedy will eventually get you punished either by drawing a double white card after Magus is out (nmks only has 4 in the 75 though) or having a land-light hand and getting Wasteland'd out by Lands/DnT/etc.
Are either of you guys reliably casting Sudden Demise? I stopped playing it because it just didn't come in for enough non-Elves matchups. Fry's build has 6 red sources, nmks's 8. The chances of drawing/mulling to Sudden Demise + red source twice in a row seem low enough that it's not worth it to use sideboard spots to try make one terrible match-up 50-50. Elves is probably in a pretty bad place right now due to Eldrazi anyway.
I feel the same way about Burn - at this point it's the only deck I think mono-white has a better matchup against (+ maybe Fish, which is still a positive matchup) but SB cards that destroy Burn are so narrow that I still don't like to include anything. Also Burn players are generally terrible, so why bother.
I like the idea of having the 4 Plains, sometimes it's nice to be able to cast Crusader, Wisp, or Mangara post Magus, and it can be annoying sometimes, normally not an issue. A lot of decks now don't have Mom helping out much against combo decks and Eldrazi it feels like a wasted card, but they are still good against a lot of things, which is why I was torn about the 3 main, but definitely wanted all 4 in the 75. I'm perfectly happy with my 3 SFM as sometimes I do Recruiter for one to help get my specific equipment, but I normally don't need to, and it always sort of makes me sad when I'm playing D&T and a SFM gets blown out before it gets to do its thing with cheating into play, and I like it better as 3 in Imperial Taxes as I don't always want it in my opener, but it's still nice to draw most games without needing to search it out.
I haven't had any issues with casting the Sudden Demise, I like Magus against Elves, shuts them down a lot, obviously not completely, but it slows them down. I also like the card a lot against Mentor Miracles, They normally don't play more than 1 or 2 spells on my turn anyway, so playing it for more mana normally is not a problem as it gets around Counterbalance a lot more often.
Pretty much the when the Sudden Demise comes into play I am still playing the Magus in the deck, so having the 1 plateau hasn't ever been a problem, at least not yet.
@Finn, I was torn very much about the Mom split, and it does do a lot of work against a lot of matches, but it's sometimes also just a 1/1 beater for 1, and I'd rather have another real beater in my list (for me it's more like a 22nd land, I play 21 in my D&T and very rarely have issues there).
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
In some local metas, I wouldn't be surprised if playing fewer Moms were totally fine. Like if you expect to see Pure combo/Elves/Eldrazi for 50% of g1s, it isn't that crazy to want play fewer Eager Cadets.
In a blind meta I think it's probably not a good idea. But with the recent growth of Eldrazi it's certainly less-wrong.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi folks.
First time poster on here but I've been really enjoying and learning a lot from the healthy discussions.
I've recently returned to MTG after an 8 year hiatus and fell straight into death and taxes due to my penchant for annoying white decks with little people :cool:
I've been playing a WW version with 3 wingmares and 3 caverns - so particularly liked seeing this as a feature of your Wr build nmks and wholeheartedly agree on the caverns being vial backup++ (and congrats on the 1st place on mtgo).
Been having some fun down my LGS, but nothing serious at the moment. However there are s couple elves players and I've been wracking my brains for solutions.
I tried the Wb version for orzhov pontiffs and zealous persecutions but found it pretty horrible in initial testing on cockatrice so took it no further.
So, with the possibility for red cards I got thinking and would like to make a suggestion... Laugh if you will, maybe it's a non-starter
It's most certainly slow. But how is Ali from Cairo? Without Mom to back it up most elves builds seem to have maximum 3 abrupt decays to beat it. Perhaps then sword of light and shadow as an additional backup, albeit another slow piece. With Mom it seems like a lock for them, and our flyers FtW?! I'm probably missing something.
Anyway, just a thought. It's only 1 card in the SB. Maybe steal a few elves matches out of sheer surprise value alone :eyebrow:
Keep up the good work.
Thanks.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
itsmrjack
With Mom it seems like a lock for them, and our flyers FtW?!
...though of course a DRS could get around it though.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I would *love* to have an excuse to play that card, but it's worse than Magus of the Moat at what it would be doing vs Elves.
With Ali, Elves can attack you to 1 then DRS drain you once to kill you. With Moat, they can't attack at all, and can only DRS drain, so unless they're playing something like Shaman of the Pack it's a pretty solid fortress. It's also good vs Merfolk, though they have a few more ways to interact with it.
The problem is it's 4 mana, and Elves goes off on t3, so it's not 'enough' of a solution on its own, and (like Sudden Demise, imo) doesn't have enough other matchups where it's good to justify its spot in a board.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Also - PS, for both Ali and Moat, Abrupt Decay doesn't even hit them, so you don't need a Mom. They're (but especially Moat) just a lock in themselves.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
In some local metas, I wouldn't be surprised if playing fewer Moms were totally fine. Like if you expect to see Pure combo/Elves/Eldrazi for 50% of g1s, it isn't that crazy to want play fewer Eager Cadets.
In a blind meta I think it's probably not a good idea. But with the recent growth of Eldrazi it's certainly less-wrong.
I'm not talking about taking this list only to a local meta tournament, but blind ones as well. I don't think that playing 3 main Mother of Runes is a bad thing, it is most definitely unconventional, but without doing unconventional things, you never learn if there's a better option out there. How do you think that innovations sometimes become mainstays?
I believe that 3 Mother of Runes in the main with the 4th in the board is not a bad call going into a blind meta. Eldrazi is on the rise (Pun intended), MUD, ANT, T.E.S., Omni-Show, and more unusual decks like High Tide are bad decks for Mom. Mom does nothing against those decks (or pretty close to it, unless you're just trying to win a pure race).
I know that Mom is her best in the earliest of games, but with the decks that seem to be gaining in popularity, Mom isn't the best of cards. Also With Magus in play, it's harder for certain spells (ie: Abrupt Decay) to make us sad. I don't think I would ever play less than 3 main and 1 side. I think it's a reasonable split, and in the match ups where it may hurt, things are skewed a bit once Magus gets online anyway. In D&T I would never play anything other than the full set main board, but this is IT we're talking here in regards to my deck, very similar, but different.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Mom also combines *with* Magus for a hard lock against bolt decks, however.
Again, I think it's something worth testing, even if I (without having tested either myself) feel like it's more likely that 3 SfM main could be long-term viable than 3 Mom main. I also have been advocating for Cavern of Souls heavy builds for a long time now and any human in the deck becomes marginally better while every non-human gets marginally worse.
But, abstractly - one of the weaknesses of D+T is how few one drops there are. Vial on 1 is often 'wasted'. Having 8 one drops with Mom/Vial means your chances of having a turn one play of some sort is okay - something like 65% before mulligans, so still lower than what you'd want it to be. By going down on 1 drops your chances of having a 'wasted' turn 1 becomes even higher. Most of the rest of the decks in legacy are filled with mana-efficient spells and have game relevant early turns. So even if Mom herself is bad vs an increasing number of decks (that might not actually be the case, since I think Eldrazi is gonna freeze out all but the most dedicated Storm players), that matters less than it would for a given 3 drop.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Mom also combines *with* Magus for a hard lock against bolt decks, however.
Again, I think it's something worth testing, even if I (without having tested either myself) feel like it's more likely that 3 SfM main could be long-term viable than 3 Mom main. I also have been advocating for Cavern of Souls heavy builds for a long time now and any human in the deck becomes marginally better while every non-human gets marginally worse.
But, abstractly - one of the weaknesses of D+T is how few one drops there are. Vial on 1 is often 'wasted'. Having 8 one drops with Mom/Vial means your chances of having a turn one play of some sort is okay - something like 65% before mulligans, so still lower than what you'd want it to be. By going down on 1 drops your chances of having a 'wasted' turn 1 becomes even higher. Most of the rest of the decks in legacy are filled with mana-efficient spells and have game relevant early turns. So even if Mom herself is bad vs an increasing number of decks (that might not actually be the case, since I think Eldrazi is gonna freeze out all but the most dedicated Storm players), that matters less than it would for a given 3 drop.
I very much agree here with what iatee has to say about the 1 drop slots. That was what I was thinking when someone suggested that cutting on Mother of Runes could be ok.
A lot of the times when you look at what makes a good hand for D&T, it is if there's a turn 1 play and how well it sets up the next turn. Is there a vial to play into port? Is there Mother of Runes into Stoneforge Mystic? Is there a Swords to Plowshares for their turn 1 play and then a follow up Thalia? etc.
I rarely keep hands without 1 drops and therefor I would never cut them, Swords to Plowshares is by far the weakest 1 drop, it barely counts as a 1 drop really, and it's the only one I would ever consider trimming down the numbers on (and it's besides the point, but I board out 4x Swords to Plowshares in ~50% of match ups by now).
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
iatee, thanks for indulging in ol' Ali...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I would *love* to have an excuse to play that card
...man, tell me about it! That mysterious scowl... "look into the emerald, not around the emerald, look intooo the emerald..." hehe
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
but it's worse than Magus of the Moat at what it would be doing vs Elves.
Agreed. I completely forgot about the existence of this card (I think it came out around the time I quit last).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
With Ali, Elves can attack you to 1 then DRS drain you once to kill you.
Yeah I put a PS on this, figuring it immediately after my initial post! Darn DRS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
The problem is it's 4 mana, and Elves goes off on t3, so it's not 'enough' of a solution on its own, and (like Sudden Demise, imo) doesn't have enough other matchups where it's good to justify its spot in a board.
Aye, it is slooow. Anyhow, a singleton Magus of the Moat + 2/3 Sudden Demise doesn't seem too shabby for an Elves-heavy meta (as uncommon as it sounds, it's the case at my LGS). This gets me thinking about curves vs. Elves...
Proposition:
Ok, so beginning with the premise that, at least when D&T is on the play after a G1 thumping, a T2 Sudden Demise or Canonist or Containment Priest is enough to keep us alive till T4 (obviously not always the case but let's just go with it). Ahemm...
So then what is the better (and by better I mean laying ground to win rather than just staying afloat) following sequence?
either:
(A) T3 Recruiter for Magus of the Moat, T4 Magus of the Moat, T5 play a flyer...
or
(B) T3 SfM get Jitte, T4 play Jitte equip attack (+ mana up for StP), T5 some further disruption or beats...
Clearly lots of ifs buts and maybes involved in either sequence. My point though is simply that the Elves plan seems to fairly often be about T2 disruption followed by getting Jitte online and that getting Jitte online is almost always a 2-turn play (though I've seen others reasonably argue that Jitte is often too slow anyway). Both sequences fall to Thoughseize obvs–but let's go with it for now...
The presence or otherwise of StP, filling in the curve at T1 or T3 seems non-trivial, and sequence (A) leaves only T1 space for StP, meaning that T3 we're wide open compared with seq. (B). But otherwise I feel that Recruiter into Magus of the Moat has a lot going for it as a plan over SfM into active Jitte.
Thoughts?
I'm accutely aware I may be flogging a dead horse here but seems worthy to at least map it out a bit. Perhaps it's been done already though?!
On the draw, however, I think that the spare mana for a possible StP(/Path) that a T3 SfM allows us could be crucial.
Another point of interest here is that if sequence (A) is opted for then does Containment Priest get marginally better than Canonist due to its ability to totally shut off both N.O. and Zenith, therefore leaving their only option to kill us till Mr Moat hits being an early hard-cast Behemoth or Glimpse sequence into Behemoth? Admittedly I haven't seen enough Glimpse sequences to know how reliably and quickly they can go off into lethal Behemoth... I've usually been killed by N.O. or T5/T6 hard-cast Behemoth the times I've played Elves. Hmmm.. Canonist is probably still the favourite here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
PS, for both Ali and Moat, Abrupt Decay doesn't even hit them, so you don't need a Mom.
Ah yes, thanks for this. You know when a drawback seems to so rarely come up that you forget it's there entirely!
cheers
