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There is a possible scenario in which Flutterstorm could hurt you marginally. It requires FoW to be cast in response to the Storm trigger, targeting Flutterstorm. Then all copies of Flutterstorm would need to target your own spells; but as GoboLord demonstrated, you could counter Flutterstorm copies with Flutterstorm copies ad infinitum. Misplaying this would be pretty bad (both bad play, and bad for the game).Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
any tricks of the trade for the shelldock isle and emrakul?
with the deck build that i got.
And there is the problem. Most blue matches are a gamble nowadays, because your protection spell is most likely to be countered. So you either go off blind or wait for another protection spell. Both can (and most of the time will) work. But if this card will greet you out of the sideboard.. I don't see you winning any blue matches anymore. That's four Forcen plus eight hardcounter for the relevant half of ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhael
Guess it's time to start the little BobTendrils test I wanted to do :)
I don't understand what you're looking for since you asked a question like this already today, and you already acknowledged that you had that question answered about twenty minutes after you asked it. Could you elaborate on what you want?Quote:
Originally Posted by CranialX
Just thinking the same thing. :PQuote:
Guess it's time to start the little BobTendrils test I wanted to do :)
Pretty sure that is trolling. Or, he could be asking for super secret tricks with Shelldock, you know, like, tapping it when a deck has less than 20 cards left!11!1eleven!Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
I'm not sure why WOTC hates combo so much, it isn't like we're absolutely dominating Legacy. The only good thing I can see is that between fluterstorm, MM and spell pierce only 2 of the 3 will be used with such limited space in control decks. Storm isn't exactly on everyone's radar when going to a major legacy tournament which I feel is a good thing and it might make people decide to not use this card in the board. In my local meta I know people will want to pack 4 of these in each sideboard though, I'm almost tempted to put back my xantid swarm's in the sideboard just to help against this card.
I feel as if they just want legacy to be control decks VS control decks, they need to throw a bone to aggro and combo decks because at this point I feel they have printed everything possible for control. Veldakin shackles against aggro, almost every type of counter spell possible at this point to help against combo and the rest of the decks in the format. /end rant
Maybe that's a dumb question but what does Flusterstorm actually do that's so much better than the pre-existing counter-suite? It certainly is a good card but how is it significantly more backbreaking?
Because against us its always going to be atleast a spell pierce, usually it will be a "counter target instant or sorcery unless its controller pays 5/6". Worst case scenario it counters all or a good chunk of our 10 tendrils of agony when we go off if we don't know they have the card or are forced to go off earlier than we want to and are unable to duress them for some reason. It isn't that this card alone is so great against us since most ANT decks run 6-8 discard effects, its that control has gotten nearly everything it has ever needed to beat combo and this might be the last card that they needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
Basically Flutterstorm is a double Force Spike that gets better as they play more spells. Consider this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
They play a spell, you counter with FS. The storm count is 2 at that point, and thus they'd have to pay :2:
Now consider if you get into one of these scenarios:
You dark ritual, they MM, you ritual again in response, they Daze it, you respond with Flutterstorm at storm 5, pointing the copies at each of their counters, allowing you to go off with both rituals in tact.
It's just a much more flexible Spell Pierce. Weather it helps combo more then hurts it is up in the air at this point, but it is probably the end of ANT/TES as we know it.
Depending on how popular this card becomes I think the xantid swarm sideboard tech might have to make a comeback in my sideboard, the only up side to this card is that combo isn't on to many peoples radar when going to a big event so between MM, spell pierce and flutterstorm I think 95% of players will decide to leave out flutterstorm unless combo is big going into the event since the other 2 counter spells are better against the rest of the meta.
It is possible we end up using it as sideboard tech to use in defense but playing infernal tutor with this card in hand makes it impossible to use as intended since we will have to pitch to LED anyways then watch out infernal get countered.
Im not sure this will be the nail in the coffin we all fear but it certainly brings is very close, I think WOTC is running out of cards to print that will kill combo.
Ah, got it. The card's the same non-issue as other options when we do have disruption, but if we don't, it's harder to play around.
Still, not sure it's maindeckable, and if already counter-heavy decks want to play it sb remains to be seen. Of course I fully expect to get killed by it at least once once I get off my lazy ass and get same to a tournament again.
This card is pretty abysmal in non-combo decks that want to deal with Zoo, Merfolk, and Stoneforge Mystic (the three top decks right now). This card will only see fringe play in non-combo decks, much the way that Mindbreak Trap currently does. It's not going to replace Spell Pierce (which is seeing less and less play already) as long as Stoneforge-Batterskull, Zoo, and Merfolk are the top contenders.
Maybe I don't get it, but why would you want Pierce in the three matchups you named instead of Flusterstorm?
He doesn't. That is why it is seeing less and less play, But compared to Pierce, Fluster comes up short against Standstill, Vial, Equips, and Jace. Also to add on to that, 2 out of 3 decks named, barely if ever play more than 2 spells if they have to protect their spell to resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
K, misread that one :D
Just wanna add, that I tried two Tendrils in the sideboard in a small tournament yesterday. I played against an UW Control-deck, and it was awesome. Started game two with a Tendrils in hand, and it felt like I couldn't lose. I used an Infernal Tutor on the second turn to tutor up a second Duress and raw stormed him out on turn three with eight cards in hand.
My two loses were both Merfolks. I had not done any testing against them after Mental Misstep, but I still thing it's an okay matchup, if you just practise it enough (the second one I faced, boarded in Mindbreak Trap, which seriously f***** me).
Also don't worry about flutterstorm.
1. blue has a lot of better counters against combo to board: exampls: MBT,stifle, spell pierce (not forgetting the usual MM, force and spell snares sets)
2. it costs blue...so anything that doesn't play blue has no use for it, and when playing blue, see reason 1.
I don't think it'll see play at all except in some trollbuilds or experimental builds, but it shouldn't be worth trying it out at all unless they go full-out vs combo (in that case even chants and silences are better)
I wouldn't worry about it now that combo has gotten a lot less attention in the new meta.
Different topic:
I have had trouble with my protection spells being countered by MMs. Thus, I wanted to have protectionspells with cc2.
There are two cards that come into mind:
1. Abeyance
2. Defense Grid
Has anyone have experience with the one and/or the other card? So far I've only tested Defense Grid and I really love it. The sweetest thing is that you can (try to) land it before your combo turn so you have more mana left when you go off. Against counter-heavy decks (where you need more than 1 protection-spell to go off) you divide those 2 protections spells you need among two turns.
I didn't test Abeyance so far.
Defense Grid seems powerful, but slow to me. Its no doubt good against control, but I'd almost rather be casting cantrips instead of trying to tap out for Defense Grid. Abeyance seems to be an interesting choice. It has the added benefit of being able to shut off Top which is nice bonus. My only comment to these is that the Landstill/MUC decks that run Mental Misstep will also run Spell Snare making these cards somewhat worse since they have a dedicated hard counter for them. The benefit we can take from this is that the metagame shift has largely ignored combo while changing recently and Spell Pierce is more likely to appear as a sideboard card then a maindeck card now. This can work to our advantage as Storm players since we can approach control decks running situational counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Instead of trying to find ways to avoid playing around Mental Misstep, I've opted to play through it. Post board (my list is below), I typically run 4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Xantid Swarm against control decks. Between the disruption cards, all of the cantrips, and Dark Ritual, I'm typically able to run them out of counters, resolve a Xantid Swarm through them or hit them with enough discard spells to win. Its another reason why I believe Grim Tutor and Ad Nauseam are good choices right now since most of dedicated control decks (Landstill Variants, MUC control) have no clock (making the life loss negligible) and will only have 7 counterspells that can target either of those spells (3 Counterspell and 4 Force of Will). Additional copies of Tendrils could be alright, but it seems like it gives them the opportunity to stabilize unless you cast both of them in the same turn for the kill.
Just won a local Legacy event with LaxStorm. The list is below with a few notes.
Lands (17)
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
Business Spells (43)
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth (may turn into a Chain of Vapor)
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild
1 Wipeaway
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
I played against mostly BUG and UW Stoneforge decks. I went 3-0-1 in the swiss and won out. My only game loss was due to pilot error.
Xantid Swarm was by far the MVP of the day for me. It made the decks with counterspells in them a race instead of a grind. I know the possibility of adding more Tendrils has been discussed, but I only found myself resolving two Tendrils once. Comparatively, I resolved Xantid Swarm and won because of it every game I saw it.
Against the Team America match, I won by resolving Ad Nauseam both times. In one match, I won game one despite being hit with two Hymn to Tourach and playing through Force of Will. I've found that if they're disrupting you, they're not killing you. So while discard can be annoying and make you feel like you're behind, its only a problem when they have a quick clock following it up. Digging up Ad Nauseam and resolving it seems like much stronger move than boarding in additional Tendrils. This could also double against Mono Blue or Landstill where their counter base is much more conditional now with Mental Misstep and Spell Snare making up a majority of the counterbase; Counterspell/FoW not withstanding. Not to mention that those decks have zero clock so you're life total will usually be high allowing you to dig deeper with Ad Nauseam.