[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

It's the same theory as UW Delver from Standard; more cantrips mean more chances to find Lands and such. Running a low land count means you need a boat load of cantrips, and Gitaxian Probe is essentially free. You can pull it out against Burn or highly aggressive decks, but against anything from combo, to the mirror, to Jund, you will want to look at their hand before deciding whether to throw away the Abrupt Decay or the Daze with Brainstorm. (Or whatever.)

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Exactly.

I've actually considered going down to 19 lands, but I don't know which one to cut. You want at least 9 Fetchies for DRS, 2 Bayou and 1 Trop are minimum for green mana and I don't think that cutting a usea is a good idea. There are games where your opponent has triple wasteland- what if he hits all 3 during the game? Further, you never want to miss your turn two landdrop even if you have shaman and you never want to keep hands that lack a blue source.

Lili has proven to be awesome against Canadian and Sneak Show and due to our loads of cantrips I run most relevant SB cards "only" as one-ofs in the first place. Lili is so gamebreaking and provides so much value in most matches (esp turn 2) that I'd never cut it.

I don't see Dimir Charm to be an option at all. A 2 mana counter/removal/cantrip is last thing the deck needs. If you want to run a funny utility card, Simic Charm seems to be far more interesting. But still, 2 mana is too much for such mediocre effects. I haven't tested it myself, but if you do, I'd be curious about your results.

I've only played it as a 3-of in a 4-colour Gost version of the list, and there it was great, but this deck might just be too fast and too lean for it.

A third Probe? I love Probe, and if we're going down that road it might be worth it. I'm unable to think of anything that really stands out without Snapcaster Mage in the deck, Vapor Snag being the first card I thought of. MD the Library? I've adored it every time I've seen it when I'm maining it.

EDIT: This is all theory from me. I've not tested anything I'm saying here.

People actually run MD Library or, alternatively, Vendilion Clique. Replacing it and the 5th removal with probe was my attempt to optimize this very sensible list. I can't say by now if it's the better way and in my opinion this has been the highest of feelings for now. I don't see the need of a 3rd Probe and as I said, we shouldn't go down on lands. I'd rather wait and see how the changes turn out to be in the future. Maybe Gitaxian Probe turns out to be so super awesome that we really want to have a 3rd ;)

Updated the sideboard guide with a few minor tweaks: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...813#post620813

Anyone still jamming TA lately? I've been so busy with work and vacations lately I haven't had much time to play, but I see no reason that TA wouldn't still be a Tier 1 contender.

What are everyone's feelings on Darkblast vs. Engineered Plague vs. Golgari Charm right now? I feel that with the changes to the Legend rules we may see a lot more people taking advantage of multiple Gaea's Cradles. Charm certainly seems to be the most versatile at the moment.

Playtested against RUG last night. Went 5-1 or 6-1 I think 4-5 games preboard and 2-3 sideboard games. I thought it would be pretty even but somehow I always pull the advantage

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Originally Posted by blindspotxxx

Playtested against RUG last night. Went 5-1 or 6-1 I think 4-5 games preboard and 2-3 sideboard games. I thought it would be pretty even but somehow I always pull the advantage

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I don't think it's even at all. Their removal spell (bolt) only hits your delvers/shaman, while your removal hits everything of theirs. Add in that TS is > goyfstalls and you have your winning recipe.

When do you guys board in the Winter Orbs?

I bring in winter orb against Miracles, Esperblade, Punishing Fire Decks and Midrange BUG. It's a bit tricky to play with sometimes but cast at the right moment can win you games. I don't know about the new Esperblade Decks (bob + shaman), though, that might become a tough matchup.

I playtestet against Jund last night and added a 3rd Tombstalker along with the gitaxian Probes, cutting a Decay. Im gonna see how that works out, but I'll tell you if it does. I added a third spell Pierce to SB and a second Clique, so that matchup is still tough, but pretty good covered up.

Thanks for mentioning me in the sideboard guide wcm8! I think winter orb is generally underrated in most tempo Decks and a lot of players don't know how to interact with it. I still hang on Golgari Charm against Elves and I consider adding a singleton Submerge to SB. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Updated the sideboard guide with a few minor tweaks: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...813#post620813

Anyone still jamming TA lately? I've been so busy with work and vacations lately I haven't had much time to play, but I see no reason that TA wouldn't still be a Tier 1 contender.

What are everyone's feelings on Darkblast vs. Engineered Plague vs. Golgari Charm right now? I feel that with the changes to the Legend rules we may see a lot more people taking advantage of multiple Gaea's Cradles. Charm certainly seems to be the most versatile at the moment.

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Engineered Plague isn't fast enough unless you open Shaman. They have just a mass of creatures starting from turn 2 and that's when they can get their advantage through drawing or even setting up a kill. I prefer Golgari Charm actually. Card is very good against MUs such as D&T as well! 2 mana vs 3 mana is also very important against a prison-control deck. Darkblast I found is only really decent when you open it early.

Also Golgari Charm has many utilities in the Counterbalance MU, as it "counters" Supreme Verdict. I prefer speed and utility over the pure shock value.

That Deathblade match up is totally horrible. I got bitchslapped pretty hard last night lol

I think I'd rather use Sinkholes rather than Winter Orbs didn't work against punishing jund :(

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Originally Posted by BennBeckmann

I bring in winter orb against Miracles, Esperblade, Punishing Fire Decks and Midrange BUG. It's a bit tricky to play with sometimes but cast at the right moment can win you games. I don't know about the new Esperblade Decks (bob + shaman), though, that might become a tough matchup.

I playtestet against Jund last night and added a 3rd Tombstalker along with the gitaxian Probes, cutting a Decay. Im gonna see how that works out, but I'll tell you if it does. I added a third spell Pierce to SB and a second Clique, so that matchup is still tough, but pretty good covered up.

Thanks for mentioning me in the sideboard guide wcm8! I think winter orb is generally underrated in most tempo Decks and a lot of players don't know how to interact with it. I still hang on Golgari Charm against Elves and I consider adding a singleton Submerge to SB. Thoughts?

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What did you take out of SB to add Clique and extra Spell pierce. I might be playing the deck in a small tournament on Sunday (so please respond asap ;-) )and use your list (page 146) but added 1 clique main after reading your comments. To make space I cut one daze.
I also wondered what you board against Jace since you removed Pulse completely from your list.

As far as SB: Would Chill be a viable card for this deck? I like submerge because it is versatile removal and together with Winter orb it can get rid of their larger (mana) beasts on a more permanent base. However I am not sure what to take out ? Dismember?

Meta will be dredge ANT TES Deathblade Jund SB suggestions would be welcome! I am thinking of playing Gravediggers cage instead of surgicals?

Thanks for your comments.

Got first today in a smaller local tournament. Won a Tropical Island and the champion cake.

Here's the list:

20 lands
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
2 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn
1 Dismember

SB:
2 Engineered Plague
1 Massacre
1 Disfigure
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Winter Orb
1 Life from the Loam

*Snapcaster was great. I never had a problem running it alongside Tombstalker, and of course its versatility is unmatched.
**Thrun was MVP all day. Won me games against UWr Miracles, Esper Deathblade, and UWr Delver.

The sideboard worked well. Every match it seemed like I had at least a half dozen cards to bring in, whereas if I had made it more focused I might have run into cases where I had nothing. Massacre might seem odd, but you just need to time it right. I also got to hardcast it in my finals against combo Elves as a pseudo-Damnation, so there's that.

I like your list. I run something almost identical. -1 dismember -2 ponder / +1 Hymn +2 spell pierce.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Got first today in a smaller local tournament. Won a Tropical Island and the champion cake.

Here's the list:

SB:
2 Engineered Plague
1 Massacre
1 Disfigure
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Winter Orb
1 Life from the Loam

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How do you feel the Jund and Esperblade matchups are without multiple Sinkhole or Winter Orb effects? I felt like I relied on Sinkhole pretty heavily to win. I briefly tested Sinkhole + Snapcaster Mage and it was pretty bonkers, any consideration for that? Do you think it's unreasonable to play maybe a Sinkhole over a Thrun, Golgari Charm, or EE?

I kicked Esper's ass with Thrun mostly. The worst thing that they can do really seems to be establishing a Batterskull or Jace. Maelstrom Pulse is worth considering as a catchall.

I went with just the 1 Winter Orb, but could see cutting something to add another. I don't really like the idea of devoting 4 slots to Sinkhole since it's only useful in some matchups.

I didn't face Jund, and I'm not sure how exactly that matchup would go with my list.

I'd also consider cutting Massacre for a Darkblast.

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster. So I am planning to play the following list in St Louis and would love some feedback over card choices and numbers. Specifically, I am interested in others' thoughts on Hymn vs Thoughtseize. I never have success with hymns but have moneyed two starcity opens and won some local events with Thoughtseizes. If there is something I am missing or misunderstanding and someone could explain it to me I would love to learn. I also feel like the stifles could be upgraded to something else but I am hesitant to lower my blue or instant/sorcery count. The current configuration is very consistent in terms of being able to cast Force and flip Delvers reliably. Thanks in advance for your help.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard

3 Submerge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dimir Charm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress

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Originally Posted by RainyMood

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster. So I am planning to play the following list in St Louis and would love some feedback over card choices and numbers

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I'm going to take a guess at your meta, tell me if I'm way off-base: you don't have a whole lot of decks that play red removal (Jund, Thresh), and you have a decent bit of combo and UW decks. Also a consideration, your thresh players are bad (like in my meta :tongue:)

Tombstalker is absolutely insane against any non-W deck, and while Clique is one of the most underplayed cards in Legacy, I feel like it's not a replacement for Tombstalker in this deck.

You build looks like it's insane against combo, but gives up an unacceptable percentage against other archetypes. Thresh seems to be a better LD / reactive tempo deck compared to your build (on paper, at least). Team America as its been built over the past 6 months or so has been an aggressively proactive deck. TA wants to tap out every turn and get into low-resource battles with a creature on your side. The appeal of Hymn is that it's a 2-for-1 against grindy decks that also functions as a proactive stone rain against loose keeps. Thoughtseize is powerful against specific cards, but Hymn is better at resource denial.

If you prefer reactive tempo decks, I think Thresh might be a better fit. TA is very tap-out and grindy. At the end of the day though, your record suggests you're a reasonable player and this sort of archetype rewards playskill much more than strictly "optimal" deck design.

@ RainyMood - you just want to be mindful of your curve. You have so many 1-cc already. One of the beauties of Hymn is that you can go turn one Delver, DRS, Ponder, Stifle, and then turn 2 hymn. Your only other true two-drop is Goyf, as Abrupt is reactive. You can always run some targeted discard in your board (-2 Lil +2 Thoughtseize).

@wcm8 Congratulations on your finish. Unfortunately I did not do so well and finished last in a 22 person tournament.

Decks being played: Burn, Jund , Deadblade, S&T, Enchantress, Dredge, Merfolk, JUNK, ANT, RUG,
So a very diverse meta.

Match 1: Junk 1-2
game 1 Mull to 3 ! (DRS, Polluted, Hymn) so die after few turns.
game 2 Goyf and especially DRS for the win
game 3 Game goes to long, vindicates winterorb. I loose

0-1-0

Match 2: Show and tell , Omniscience 1-2
Game 1 Turn 3 emrakul , I die
Game 2 He can't find the right cards after finding them with perfect ponder. Drew 3! so had to shuffle them all back and got warning.
Game 3 with 3 shamans active he needs an answer, he finds it 17 cards later ;-( (Griselbrand 2 x gets him down to 1 life and finds an answer with a ponder)

0-2-0

Match 3: Dredge
game 1 No answers, Die turn 4
game 2 Board in Gravediggers cage put it down turn 1, Kill him quickly
game 3 Same as game 2

1-2-0

Match 4: Burn
Game 1 He is a bit quicker than me so I loose
Game 2 I get Chill from SB, this slows him down enough to kill him just in time.
Game 3 He gets 2 Goblin guides and I find no answers.

1-3-0

Match 5: Miracle control 1-2
Game 1 Angels do their job, I loose
Game 2 DRS and Goyf for the win
Game 3 After a good start the board stabilises with him at 8 and me at 23. But after casting Baneslayer angel with an active Jace, I never manage to get into the game and scoop in extra time.

1-4-0

Match 6: Enchantress 0-2
Game 1 combo's of in 4 turns , no answers
Game 2 same as game 1

1-5-0

For this game sinkhole would have been great but I do not think many players play enchantress anymore.
Gravediggers cage was fantastic against dredge.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I kicked Esper's ass with Thrun mostly. The worst thing that they can do really seems to be establishing a Batterskull or Jace. Maelstrom Pulse is worth considering as a catchall.

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I have a Pithing Needle for this. It's a tad easier to work with, and if you know they have it (from a proir Thoughtseize or Stoneforge use) you don't have to have it rot in hand until they're ready to go for it, or you can hit Stoneforge Mystic so it doesn't come down. It also hits Top against Miracles, and that's a pretty sweet target, so long as they don't get Counterbalance up first.