[Deck] Zoo

I played on saturday too @4, after a terrible start of 0-2. I ended 3-2 netting me two boosters, dont know what place I ended. I lost the zoo mirror round one, cant remember round 2. Round 3 I played a mono black deck vs a dude who played his 2nd Legacy tournament ever. Stone-throwing Devils wtf? Round 4 I beat Vengevival with Shrieking Drakes. I used my Enlightened Tutor sideboard and Krosan Grips to good effect but I'm not sure if its actually worth siding in the Tutors. He was surprised though that I played them which made me smile. Cant remember round 5 either. I was too tired because of a wedding and wedding party the night before.

Edit: round 2 I lost to a Poxless variant. he was able to keep me of my lands all the time and he had topdeck skills like crazy. He litterally topdecked the right card every time I was able to get back into the game. Terrible.

I was in Amsterdam on Saturday and Sunday and everything I played (Saturday: Standard and Legacy. Sunday: WPN standard and Sealed deck) went terrible. In the end I didn't really enjoy the weekend.

I wasn't there on Sunday. I had to work but really wish I coulda made it.

The weekend was a blast, evert premiere level event is a great experience.

Went 5-2 at Vestal this weekend, getting 11th out of 79.

My list was:

4 Nacatl
4 Lavamancer
3 Steppe Lynx
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
1 KoTR

4 Bolt
3 Chain
3 Helix
4 Path
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy

List felt great, but I mulliganned A LOT. I don't know why. I do mulligan fairly aggressively, but my standards for a keepable 7 card hand are pretty lax (Basically a one drop and 2 lands will get me to keep the hand.)

My matchups were as follows:
The Gate (2-0)
UG Vengevine Survival Madness (1-2)
Doomsday/SnT (2-1)
New Horizons (0-2)
GW Survival (2-1)
Excalibur (2-0)
UMerfolk (2-0)

I'll post a full report some time this week when I'm feeling less lazy.

Have you guys seen the new planeswalker?

http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...ftuygbunsd.jpg

By no means does it belong in traditional Zoo builds, but I think it would be interesting for the midrange Zoo decks that already run planeswalkers. It's pretty much better than Ajani Vengeant, and I think it's better than Elspeth as well since 1) its mana requirement is easier, 2) you can beat for 4 as soon as this drops, and 3) the ultimate is much cheaper at -5 and should win you the game. It can't defend itself while growing like Elspeth can, but that's less of an issue for an aggro deck that treats this as a bomb to supplement our creatures, rather than a control deck that uses Elspeth as a sole win-con.

Obviously, this is too slow for most Zoo strategies, but it does solve a lot of problems like 1) getting around traditional sweepers like Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, and Wrath of God; 2) avoiding the most common forms of creature removal (or even pseudo-removal like Maze of Ith); and 3) saying fuck you to hate cards like Blood Moon.

Maybe it is to be paired wtih Blood Moon or Magus. Seems like RDW got the nuts.

I think this card would find a nice home in Dragon Stompy, since that deck relies on 6 or more moon effects. The Midrange Zoo decks will profit more from Elspeth giving your critter flying, compared to another ground creature that clogs up the board.

The important issue being raised on which creature to play between Kird Ape, Loam Lion or Steppe Lynx is a manifestly contentious issue that perhaps comes down to player preference. That being said, I am not persuaded that the issue has been fruitfully or fully canvassed in this thread. That is why I purpose further and more comprehensive analysis on this issue.

I find myself with a very recent change of mind in relation to this pivotal decision which can make a difference in any given metagame. I don't think that a serious zoo player can minimize how crucial this decision can be going into a large legacy tournament like a Grand Prix. I was previously of the view that Steppe Lynx was the worst of the aforementioned choices. For the reasons that follow, I am now of the view that Lynx is better in Zoo then both Kird Ape and Loam Lion, or at least in the style of zoo that I am playing at the moment.

Matt Elias (AKA Voltron00x) won the starcitygames.com 169 player legacy tournament in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He played Steppe Lynx. In this regard, I can put it no better then did Elias in his exemplary tournament report on his June 6, 2010 tournament win where he had this to say in relation to Steppe Lynx:

"Lynx is a burn spell, in cat form. You’re hopefully paying W for 4 damage. That’s a tremendous return on your investment. The fact that you sometimes go beyond that is just gravy. Lynx is part of the reason this deck is faster than expected, and has a tendency to beat Counter-Top decks. Lynx’s ability to be a 4/5 for several consecutive turns is just huge; he can power past an early Goyf where a Loam Lion / Kird Ape cannot. Swinging in for 5 damage on turn two after playing a Pridemage feels pretty insane, considering you still have a 3/3 for G and five burn spells capable of dealing four or more damage. Did I lose at least one game because I had Lynx instead of Kird Ape / Loam Lion? Yes. Did I win more games because I had Lynx? I believe so. Again, it depends on what you’re trying to beat." [Emphasis Mine]

At Grand Prix Madrid, Luis Quintana sported 4x Steppe Lynx main deck and went undefeated on day 1 with an impressive 6-0 showing. Alejandro Delgado, who made the top 8 playing zoo at Grand Prix Madrid said he wished he would have played Steppe Lynx instead of Kird Ape after he replaced the Apes he didn't like with 4x Figure of Destiny. Not to sound overly critical but the ape/lion/lynx should always beat out Destiny which really doesn't make the cut for a tier one zoo build anymore; I digress.

In any event, I too was guilty of arbitrarily and capriciously judging Steppe Lynx. In fact, I summarily dismissed it as being playable in Zoo and thought it was a poor mans Kird Ape upon the release of Zendikar almost exactly one year ago. However, when I extensively play tested it against the entire legacy metagame against various players in the most aggressive style of a Zoo build that can presently be constructed and it was clear that doing 4-5 early when Apes and Lions can only do 2 can be a factor in determining whether a W or L is circled on your match report. Again, I can’t over emphasize that if you don't play a dozen fetches, Knight and Library then I could definitely see using Kird Ape which I prefer over Loam Lion. However, the cumulative totality of using the foregoing cards in combination with Lynx provides for good tempo and tremendous synergy. This is why I now believe that in the context of Zoo (which is suppose to be optimally aggressive) Lynx is a tier one card that is just as good if not better then Kird Ape in the context of this deck.

I agree with everything you said except for the dissing of Figure. I wouldn't play Figure over Lynx, but it's actually an amazing card if you know how to play with it. Personally, if I wanted to run figures (Which I currently run one of) I run them in addition to lynxes.

That's a fine summary, we should copypasta it on the next page when this debate eventually resurfaces.

Nothing to add really.

Hungry:

Report? Anything special or just a typical good matchups/bad matchups affair?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I agree with everything you said except for the dissing of Figure. I wouldn't play Figure over Lynx, but it's actually an amazing card if you know how to play with it. Personally, if I wanted to run figures (Which I currently run one of) I run them in addition to lynxes.

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I agree on Figure. It should only be run as a 1x or maybe 2x of. It serves well as giving you extra 1cc cards number 12-13, and is generally better at that point than just having a dumb loam lion or kird ape, regardless of the other one drops you're playing. It gives you another large beater that can put down early pressure, and is certainly not to be completely dismissed.

Adding on, it can serve as a valuable removal magnet to get a goyf or KotR to stick in odd circumstances. Being a 1/2 of, a 1 drop and mana sink, a potential beater with evasion, a removal magnet, it does lots but its inconsistency keeps all that in check. I'll try it out if folks seem to like it. Maybe I will move Teeg to the board. Gives me something new to play with at least

Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

What cards define the mirror/agro matchup?
Don't say Jitte, it's a different format from last year. I'd think instant speed removal is at a premium. Swords, Helix, REB in relevant cases.

Thoughts, experiences?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

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In my opinion Chain Lightning is the first candidate. I agree on not using land spots for them. I think Library should never be replaced by anything so Teeg would be an option since combo is less prevalent nowadays.

Note that with Leonin Arbiter, the "fetches, whee!" style of Zoo now has another mark against it. Sure it's just a 2/2 creature, but you can expect it to be played in decks that can protect it. Lynx might still be better than Ape, and we don't know if Arbiter will see much play, but you can't deny the vulnerability of a fetch-heavy manabase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Note that with Leonin Arbiter, the "fetches, whee!" style of Zoo now has another mark against it. Sure it's just a 2/2 creature, but you can expect it to be played in decks that can protect it. Lynx might still be better than Ape, and we don't know if Arbiter will see much play, but you can't deny the vulnerability of a fetch-heavy manabase.

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What deck is going to play Leonin Arbiter? And would they really want it against Zoo? Sure, it is mildly annoying, but it dies to literally every single piece of removal in the deck. It is also symetrical so they cannot run fetchlands either. Suppression Field is far superior to this if you're looking to stop fetches and it sees extremely little play. Aven Mindcensor is much better at stopping searching and I don't think I've ever seen it played.

Unless they accelerate it into play with something like Chrome Mox, you'll have at least one land in play, which is enough to kill it. At worst, it will stunt your play a few turns until you find removal or non-fetch lands. It's not going to singlehandedly tip the scale in Death and Taxes' favor, and I don't see any other deck playing it, except Stax, and (as CorpT said) in that deck Suppression Field is better.

I also think that Leonin Arbiter isn't too scary. He dies to everything we play, and they're spending two mana to our one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

What cards define the mirror/agro matchup?
Don't say Jitte, it's a different format from last year. I'd think instant speed removal is at a premium. Swords, Helix, REB in relevant cases.

Thoughts, experiences?

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Wasteland doesn't really replace anything. I don't even like to count it as a mana source, it's simply 0cc LD. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Playing Wasteland makes playing Noble Hierarch MUCH more attractive, and changes the style of the deck. Zoo traditionally wants all of it's cards to be threats or answers, and Noble Hierarch is neither of those things. What he does do however, is get you to 3 or 4 mana much faster, and coupled with Wasteland makes it harder for your opponent to get there with you. This changes the whole Zoo gameplan, which is to drop more dudes than your opponent can deal with and dominate the board. Your goal is still to dominate the board, but it's less pressure oriented. Instead you're looking to land your bombs. Still, I find that Wasteland is amazing in the deck. Most of my opponents say, "what? wasteland in zoo?" and procede to fumble into the loss. My current manabase is as follows, with blue for Meddling Mage Sb. The Volcanic and Tropical could easily be Taiga and Plateau if you're not looking to go into blue.

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Wasteland

I included Noble Hierarch because he is more of a land than anything else. If you're wondering what cards I've omitted, Lightning Helix/Kird Ape/Loam Lion/Steppe Lynx all come to mind. I still play the full 4 of Path, Bolt, and Chain, and 2 Sylvan Library and Elspeth. Wasteland can be used to create mana for Library, Goyf, Elspeth, and KOTR. It makes your Knights alot better too, and can really cripple your opponent. I suppose I only play 19 colored sources of mana, but it's been fine with Hierarch and Library. You also really want to draw gas in this deck.
Hope that helps!

@troop:

that's pretty insightful. How do you hang against other dedicated agro decks, as well as how are typically good matchups?

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Originally Posted by jandax

@troop:

that's pretty insightful. How do you hang against other dedicated agro decks, as well as how are typically good matchups?

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I'm glad you ask, the deck does really well. I find that the matchup against other aggro decks is about the same as quicker Zoo lists. This is because your defensive capabilities are still exceptional. You can still play Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. You still have 12 cards at 1cc for removal, ensuring that you will never pay more to get rid of something than they paid to play it. Your strength lies in that you have a much more solid lategame. Sylvan Library is also solid gold, smoothing every draw along the way. I'll cover what I think to be the best aggro decks in Legacy.

Goblins- This matchup is still favorable, but easy to lose. All of your cards are great against them, but Goblins always has the ability to Matron into Ringleader, gas up and kill you. I would say it's about a 60-40 matchup in our favor, but would also note that quicker Zoo lists do better. I'm greedy and run the two blue lands, which can be awful after they've Wasted a land you need. In my experience playing against Goblins as long as you can cast your creatures, you're in great shape. If I expected alot of goblins however, I wouldn't play blue. It's important to note, that just because you're playing "Big Zoo" doesn't mean you can't play 8 Bolts! You need these to answer Goblin Lackey. What you really don't want them to play turn 1 is Aether Vial. This matchup has alot to do with how well they draw, but I feel confident against Goblins.

Zoo- The mirror usually comes down to who can land the most Tarmogoyfs/Knight of the Reliquarys, and we're better at that. I guess the other guy can have more burn, but it's not like all of our cards don't answer theirs too. Preserving your life total can blank their Fireblasts, and Elspeth is a bomb. I wouldn't say that it's a drastic change, but Big Zoo is slightly favored in my opinion.

Merfolk- This is kindof an aggro deck, so I figured I'd mention it. I've tested this matchup alot, and we're still heavily favored. Despite the fact that I play two Islands, I didn't lose a match to the merfolk deck. I would fear the black splash lists a little more, since Perish is very strong, but it's still the deck you want to be playing against all tournament. Wild Nacatl is just such a beating for them.

I'm not sure what else you want to know. Generally, this deck beats up on every other creature oriented deck. It's the decks that are non interactive that you need to actively fear. What really sets Big Zoo apart for me is how good it is against Counter-Top Control decks.

Troop- I'm curious what the rest of your card choices are, and how it compares to Sarah Brennecke's deck from the Minneapolis SCG.

She ran 4 Knights but no Hierarchs or Elspeth.

Also, how do you feel about the interaction between Wasteland and Path to Exile?