Saw the line but only after it finished resolving. not sure if I would pause myself there to think about the bouncing, but clearly I should.Quote:
Originally Posted by schniggaz
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Saw the line but only after it finished resolving. not sure if I would pause myself there to think about the bouncing, but clearly I should.Quote:
Originally Posted by schniggaz
I've been playing this deck for some time now, at local tournaments. Today, one of my opponents played a Bant deck (cantrips, Jaces, Forces. Knights, Hierarch, splashing black for Deathrite and Decay - not sure if sideboard or main). I've had trouble sideboarding against this deck. I played the "Punishing Abzan" decklist from latest Open, and sidebaorded in a Deluge, taking out Gaddock, but now I think that was probably incorrect since gaddock shuts down his Forces, Jaces and Green Sun's Zeniths.
How would you sideboard against such deck?
I also played against TES and sideboarded in Leylines of the Void - do you think it was correct? It shuts down their PiF plan, but it's not like it's the main plan against us, weakens Rite of Flames and shuts down possible Therapy flashbacks after Empty the Warrens.
Bant deck has problems vs recursive removal like punishing fire, talking out Gaddock wasn't best, not sure Deluge was worth it, since he will keep Decay's vs Chalice which is very good card against Bant (Brainstorm's, StP, Shamans sometimes ponders), you should more focus on his mana, Bant doesn't have too many basics (mostly 1-2 depends on list specially when splashing black). MVP would be still Liliana and punishing fire, it's quite tide MU, try to gain advantage from Bob and shut down his answers with chalice. Look out for Ooze eating punishing fire. Keep Decay's for Knight's if you mana control plan fizzle.
VS TES - yes if you don't have anything vs combo side in gy hate, It can save you from fast turn 1 killing via PiF. I would also bring in Deluge or something against EtW plan.
Against TES i sided in:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Unfortunately, I didn't have much testing of sideboarded games against Bant, since I mulled to 5, kept 1 land + 1 land on top from scry an got Wastelanded out of the game, and he earlier won G1 :)
I wouldn't side in Leyline of the Void against TES. Past in Flames is very rarely a Wish target.
PIF is almost always a backup plan from TES. The priorities in that matchup is mulling to a T1 piece of disruption (so, mox + anything or chalice post board) and having some way to answer goblins.
Against TES, in my experience, you want to play 2 pieces of hate and that should be sufficient. They lack the ability to play a longer game against us, and their decklist takes speed over power in almost every scenario so we need disruption ASAP and that's kind of the whole game.
Hey guys,
I'm currently looking to get my first serious legacy deck (besides burn) and I'm thinking maybe this could be a good choice? I'm wonder how hard this deck is to pilot with very limited legacy knowledge and how good it is in the current meta? Those are the main things I'm looking for in a deck, as well as maybe future options to build from it. I'm on an about $1,500 budget though I do already own some of the stuff from this deck. Thanks!
Hey Figurative,
The only deck I would be tempted to play for competitive reasons besides this one is miracles. That deck is really strong and balanced (matchup-wise) and it lets you outplay just about anything. 4C loam is similar. It isn't as balanced, because some decks are super weak against it and others are near unbeatable matchups. Most decks have those. Fortunately ours are fringe decks like Nic Fit and High Tide and such.
As for difficulty... I've been playing similar versions of this deck for 3+ years now and I think I'm still learning. Unfortunately (for you, fortunately in general) the deck is not set on a single strategy or game plan. You have to/get to mold your playstyle around what your opponent is doing.
Hi guys, this is Tom from the NJ Open!
I was very pleased with the deck and the outcome, thanks for the congrats Schniggaz. ;D
Major props go to him for designing this current list. It really does have a lot of play and has so many angles and packages jammed into it, with Mox Diamond and Loam holding it all together. It basically is the best parts of Jund, Maverick, with a dash of the R/G lands deck engine.
I am always happy to hear feedback and if anyone has any other decisions or plays they want to discuss or comment on, please bring them up.
In regards to Schniggaz three points:
1. Yeah, I don't want to talk about missing that trigger either. It was the only one I recall missing in the entire tournament, but it was on camera which made it feel worse (it didn't help that was my first time ever playing on camera). Glad it didn't end up mattering.
2. You are totally right on the clock dynamics. It didn't feel like I was taking that much time when I was playing the games, although watching the recordings, there are parts where I play painfully slowly and it could have cost me the match. I think I was just very concerned about playing too fast and getting sloppy and missing something.
3. You aren't missing anything. That is almost certainly the right play, although, I thought about it at the time and had a reason for not copying the Chain of Vapor, it was just not correct. The previous turn, when Ross cast Chain of Vapor targeting Thalia, I read over the card again and concluded that copying it must add to the storm count. In the turn Ross tried to go off, I figured he was missing one storm count from killing me and I didn't want to copy the Chain of Vapor and give him that extra spell. I 100% should have verified my understanding with a judge, but I thought I understood the interaction. As it turns out, copying it does not add to the storm count and thus bouncing the Bob to take that line away is almost certainly right.
I am catching up on real life stuff I neglected over the weekend, but will try and put together a small tournament report or something soon.
Keep on fighting the good fight everyone.
Tom
I'm going to be trying this after exams are over, since, nostalgia:
3 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
8
3 Sylvan Library
3 Seismic Assault
3 Punishing Fires
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Devastating Dreams
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Life from the Loam
1 Burning Wish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
29
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf-Run
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Whatever
1 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Worm Harvest
3 Slaughter Games
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Regrowth
2 Krosan Grip
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Thoughtseize
Congrats on the win Tom! I would like to hear your opinions on the nocley* version of the list that has the dd + stage combo in it. Have you tried this build? If so what caused you to select the build you did. I myself have tried both of the lists and tend to prefer the version with 2 basics and the combo. I have won plenty of games I could not have otherwise with the combo and have survived several blood moons with the basics. Again congratulations on the win!
In the wake of the discussion about Flip Garruk - what makes him good against Miracles?
Is it the mere ability to produce a constant stream of 2/2s? Because I'm looking for more tech in D&T to fight Miracles more effectively and the new Ally Gideon can do the same, except he also doubles as -1/-1-effects hard counter.
2WW vs 3GQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
White is a splash in the deck and double W in a deck is harsh.
You just want a constant stream of pressure... I thought of Sorin also but Garruk is just better.
The only option that I still did not try was Xenagos.
Garruk is also the occasional overpriced removal
I think what barook meant was that he is a Death and Taxes player and wants to know if he should be playing Gideon in his sideboard to bring in against Miracles since it's comparable to Garruk as a 4 mana planeswalker that pumps out 2/2s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Ajani Vengeant has seen play as well but flip Garruk is better overall (as in other matchups). I like Xenagos and try him in RG Lands because I don't like the Spheres plan vs. Miracles...and haste can be great vs Jace.
Miracles has a hard time dealing with non creature permanents. I think the new Gideon would be a fine sideboard card against them in DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I've had a bit of a debate regarding this following me not boarding it in against Storm at the GP, but bringing in Leylines is absolutely correct in my opinion. You already have more cards (Decays, P Fires) that want to come out than non-leyline storm hate, and the goal is to be as disruptive as possible. Leyline is a great disruption, as it turns off stuff like Cabal Rit that typically utilizes their GY plan, while you already do enough with a Chalice on 0 or 1 to disrupt their other big mana lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Also, as for the Gideon vs Garruk - Gideon doesn't offer removal strategies against stuff like a jammed Monastery Mentor, or a DRS (yes that leaves him vulnerable to Decay, but I think DRS is more disruptive to our strategies AND we already stress them with a high number of AD only targets (Lili, KotR, Libray)), plus WW as mentioned is difficult.
Nocley, how many cabal rits do you see in this decklist?
Grave hate isn't 100% dead, but it is maybe 90% dead. THE SCG decklist has 9 cards to bring in against TES. You can take out 4 decay, 3 pfire, 2 loam/cycle/scooze. 9 for 9. Anything more and you are cutting cards that are either necessary or better than Leyline.
There is some chance they are playing a list with 2 c.rit and you manage to draw leyline in a keepable hand they draw the c.rit... or you get super unlucky/manage to misplay such that it is turn 5+ and you don't have a threat or a lock and they can take their time to go for BW->PIF->win. Those scenarios are both less likely than you just drawing a dead card when you would prefer anything else.
Gideon vs Garruk is a matter of reading comprehension.
edit: mixed up cabals
With last year's performance of Aggro Loam i am actually surprised that this deck does not show up more often. After reading Apocolyps match-up analysis on his sig i am convinced this is the deck to be playing in my current meta (and aiming at some results). The nice thing about this deck that it has various components of archetypes i enjoy playing so there we go. After i receive the last missing cards for the deck i can take it out for a spin and plan to stay on it for a while.
Planned list:
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
This following list is where i plan to start with, but i have some questions about some (maybe too cute or already discarded) options:
Scryb Ranger, i have seen this card in action in a Punishing Maverick list and was really impressed with the utility it provided to KotR (plus DD combo) and Dryad Arbor and whatnot. It was able to snipe an EoT DD Combo out of nowhere on more then one occasion.
Courser of Kruphix, Maybe as an alternative to Bob. In conjunction to Sylvan Library it provides cardadvantage, (marginal) lifegain, is green for GSZ, has a bigger body, filters your top of library for better Sylvan Library draws. But on its own it is pretty descend as well. On its own it can accelerate development, just because it flips lands from the top into play.
Hey Bobmans, thanks for giving that a read. I've updated that now, since it a) mentioned tech that isn't relevant any more b) was last touched during the TC era. It isn't super different tho.
Looking at your board, you have 0 proper board wipes and 0 grave hate. Instead you have a bunch of Slaughter Games and more white chicks, and Pulse, Kommand, and Garruk. If I had to guess, does your meta have 0 graveyard and creature decks? Your deck deems set up to beat Omni/high tide (combo decks where our normal game plan is so weak we need Slaughter Games) and miracles/shardless (decks where we can/must side in more cards to out-value them). If this is not the case that board is probably not ideal.
Scryb Ranger is a sweet card, and if I could I think I'd be playing it. Unfortunately we just don't have the creature density.
Courser of Kruphix has been talked about, particularly as a SB card that could come in against burn/aggo as well grinder decks. If the format were grinder and I would want an extra Bob, this guy would be it.