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It would be great if people posted how they side boarded vs different matchups.
Most pertinent matchups in my opinion are BUG(Bob,Shardless Agent and Delver versions), Esper Stoneblade, Mirror, Jund, UW Miracles, Storm, Show and Tell, and RUG Delver.
Not all versions of Elves are built the same, nor are all sideboards created equal. Do some thinking, find which cards/quantities are weak in the given matchups, and sideboard accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Hint: You can shave some numbers on the Combo elves engine like Heritage Druid and Llanowar Elf.
Boarding plans can also be playstyle dependant. I dislike boarding out Heritage Druid for example.
Don't care if someones sideboarding is correct just want to know what others are doing and get a discussion going on how people sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
If you really want to get a discussion going, then why not post your own sideboard plans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Fine, I'll bite:
For this 75 cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid
2 Regal Forge
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Fetch
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest
SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
B/x Midrange with E-Plague & DRS:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Scavenging Ooze
UW/x with CB / Terminus / Jace / EE:
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Gaddock Teeg
Combo (Storm):
-1 Regal Force
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Emrakul
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Priest of Titania
-2 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia
+2 Gaddock Teeg
Combo (S&T):
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Regal Force
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia
RUG:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Scavenging Ooze
Mirror:
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Cabal Therapy (Play) / Abrupt Decay (Draw)
This doesn't tell you much, however, since you're shaving here and there from redundant and slow portions of the deck. Each list may run a different configuration of excess elves, and so the cards you're taking out are harder to find and select. Knowing what comes in is the easy part - the SB is intuitive like that. Knowing which cards can be cut is the challenge. This comes best from testing, rather than theorycrafting.
Seems like a lot of dilution to try and beat combo. How, on average, does your postboard combo matchup playout? What are your most common named cards with therapy? If you stop their combo, are you usually able to win before they rebuild (against a deck like storm you can beat em down with just four or five 1/1s before they can scuplt another hand, but what about a deck like reanimator or SNT that only need maybe 1-2 cards to combo again).
It depends against which combo deck (turn, board etc.) you play. Against Storm (TES/ANT/CAB etc.) i start naming a tutor (infernal tutor), because most storm decks play only a few finisher spells (1 tendrils, 1 past in flames, maybe 1 ad nauseam). With Cabal Therapy you have usually two shots, so naming a good mana ramp can also be an option. If you can stick thalia, teeg or thorn, you can also go for abrupt decay (the new catch all star). Last Weekend (local store tournamend) i got paired vs a good storm-combo opponent. I won 2:1 but need all hate (3 Cabal, 1 Thalia, 1 Gaddock, 1 Thorn) to have a chance. Comboplayers can discard your disruption spells or abrupt decay permanent hate before they go off (and they are faster than elves), one hate-spell per game isnīt enough to win. So yes - you need more than enough combo hate, or you can just ignore the matchup (if you have a friendly meta ;) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
If you win the disruption-war against combo, beatdown with some 1/1s (or deathrite grind out) is more than enough, which means you donīt have to combo (but a small glimpse chain to find some spells can be a good move).
Show&Tell usually have 8 Spells (4 S&T, 4 Sneak Attack) to go off, you can also discard one of the 8 creatures to disrupt their combo. Some of us use Humility or even Oblivion Ring in the sideboard, if you have enough space and/or S&T decks are a meta factor, go for some additional permanent hate. Like koby i play emrakul as my prefered win condition (access via 2 living wish). Against S&T i move living wish to the sideboard and bring in 1 emrakul and 1 karakas (also an out vs reanimate or linvala) and some additional hate (cabal therapy).
Reanimate is much more difficult to fight (because they also have access to show&tell, so graveyard hate isnīt enough). I play 3 deathrite shaman and 1 ooze maindeck (and 1 more ooze sideboard) to have something vs graveyard. Maybe it is to slow, but reanimate isnīt a meta game factor here.
Conclusion: Against combo decks, i prefer split hate among spell and permanent solutions. In my option, you also need 6 minimum slots to have a real fighting change.
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Other Sideboarding:
I agree with koby, most of time i board out -1 heritage, -1 priest of titania, -1 quirion ranger which frees 3 slots. Than i decide what i can also switch (-1 viridian shaman if the opponent have no artifact). Against most fair decks i board in:
+3 abrupt decay (works against everything, most of the time i need it vs engineered plague, but is also good vs goblin sharpshooter, jitte, dark confident and so on)
+1 umezawas jitte (no one board in artifact hate vs elves and you have an additional out vs the enemy jitte or can interact with the board situation, kill goblins, deathrite, confis, delver etc.)
+1 scavenging ooze (i play one main, but ooze is so good vs the new deathrite hype and can swing games after your elves faced deeds, explosives, plague, perish hate)
I am not agree with your IN / OUT Koby. ;)
I don't like keep Regal Force in this Mu. Your opponent play Plague (so you don't want overextend) and maybe Perish. Priest is good.Quote:
B/x Midrange with E-Plague & DRS:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Scavenging Ooze
You can cut two Forest in this Mu and the second Regal Force.Quote:
Combo (Storm):
-1 Regal Force
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Emrakul
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Priest of Titania
-2 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia
+2 Gaddock Teeg
IN DECAY for the fucking DELVER ! :) -2 Regal Force (you have never the mana for play it) -1 Emrakul (you have Decay for Delver, Ooze for life and Archdruid for Pyroclasm, you can pass the turn).Quote:
RUG:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Scavenging Ooze
REALLY? -2 Forest -1 Archdruid -1 Viridian +4 CabalQuote:
Mirror:
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Cabal Therapy (Play) / Abrupt Decay (Draw)
With so many decks using Abrupt Decay these days, do you guys think it's worth using Leyline of Sanctity? It's 4cmc so it dodges AD, helps aginst storm, burn, and discard spells. The downside is how many sideboard spots would you dedicate to it.
Elves doesn't mulligan gracefully due to the low land count. I'd shy away from Leylines altogether.
@blind
Are you giving this Matt Nass' list a chance? I've been using it and it's more prolific and consistent that the Chris Andersen's double Mirror list - at least in this current metagame. The Natural Order + Craterhoof Behemoth synergy definitely makes the deck more threatening.
This is an excellent point and I agree that Leylines aren't the best hate for Elves. Although I would say that it doesn't mulligan gracefully due to low land count and lack of cantrips. Delver decks have low land counts, but mulligan well due to running eight or so cantrips and spells that cost only one or two mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
I really believe that natural order into crater hoof is the way to go with this deck. I personally tested out natural order back when progenitus was first released and the problem was that they always had 1 if not 2 turns left after it resolved. Now that we finally have a green creature that can win on the spot for only 4 mana, i believe its better than even glimpse of green suns zenith in many cases. A hand such as natural order a couple lands and 4 or so guys is stronger than the same hand if you replace that order with glimpse or zenith. Another great perk to craterhoof vs emrakul is that its fetchable with zenith, so you effectively end up with an extra 4 possible win conditions than if you ran mirror or emrakul. Additionally, if drawn it is much easier to cast than emrakul, and while sure this deck generates more mana than perhaps any deck in the format, the diffference in 8 versus 15 is still staggering and does come into play in actual scenarios.
Basically, craterhoof has all of the perks and then some over emrakul/mirror, but without any of the drawbacks. Only scenario I can think of where you would want emrakul but not craterhoof is if you drew it in your hand, and then additionally were able to somehow generate 15 mana but not able to generate 8 with one or two guys untapped. Even mirror entity at this point has slightly more perks then emrakul, and those perks are still nowhere on the level of craterhoof. Ive certainly had cases where craterhoof didnt win me the game that turn, but it gave me a fighting change whereas with emrakul i would have never been able to tutor for it or cast it for 4 mana in the first place and with mirror I would need to have a savannah + draw it naturally. Basically what im getting at in this little rant is that... I really dont see a good reason to run something like emrakul and natural order seems to be the way to go as an easy to cast, low requirement win condition. Off of the topdeck it will almost always be better than glimpse or zenith, if you get a scenario where the dude you lose if they counter was game changing, then chances are neither glimpse nor zenith would have saved you either.
I've actually tested Craterhoof Behemoth and it works surprisingly well. I dismissed it at first, because I was unsure at how effective it could be at winning the turn it comes down. However, after testing it, I can see that it is usually an instant win when it enters the battlefield after the deck combos off. Even if most of your elves are "sick", you can untap your unsick ones with Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger and swing for lethal. I've dropped Emrakul for Craterhoof now. Instant win for 8 mana and targettable via GSZ and NO is a lot better than instant win for 15 mana and not tutorable.
I'm actually am running Summoner's Pact instead of Glimpse in conjunction with Craterhoof Behemoth. Although it was due to budget and availability concerns [Glimpse and Natural Order] at first, I do believe it is a valid option for elves. With that I even fit a playset of Elvish Archdruid to supplement the aggro part of the deck. And is a legitimate threat with all the other elves we are able to dump out.
Haven't played elves in ages, but this new list caught my attention.
My comments & questions:
Played NO back then when Progenitus was a thing and I used it often as a 4 mana (-1 dude) Regal Force. Craterhoof looks like such a strong upgrade, since you can cut Emrakul for the instant win and 8 mana (9 with zenith) is so much easier to cast in a non combo turn.
What is the deal with Deathrite Shaman?
Am I missing anything - the grindy 2 life-loss, life gain seems very weak. Is it just for the color-mana (sideboard cards)?
The downside of not making green mana 100% (especially in the not uncommon scenario that the opponent has a DRS) looks like a huge downside to me. Also Quirion ranger untapping "mana-elf" used to be a strong tech for an explosive (also non-glimpse) turn 2 dumping your hand. Also not guaranteed with DRS.
Why did Summoner's Pact fall out of favour? Best card with an active glimpse. Can see it beeing reduced but completely cut...?
Haven't played Deathrite-Craterhoof Elves yet, but I'd imagine the grindy abilities are quite useful - for one, you can just board stall with Symbiote and drain them with Deathrites without the need to commit to a combo turn. After a bit of draining, Craterhoof can become lethal when it otherwise wouldn't be. You also easily get multiple Deathrites on the field and so can interfere with opposing ones. 2 Toughness, so it can withstand Engineered Plague and a couple other irritations. The mana is the main thing, no doubt, but it seems amazingly useful otherwise as well.
Plus, hey, it helps against Reanimator. Last I checked pointy-ears had some problems with that...
The Pact and other stuff are simply adaptations to a somewhat grindier, less Glimpse-centric gameplan. T1 manadork T2 dump T3 Craterhoof, Symbiote grinding and the like benefit from other search methods much more.
Deathrite shaman has its tradeoffs, and you did a good job listing some of them. However the pros outweigh the cons, especially as we have transitioned into a grindier elf deck that relies less and less on glimpse with each iteration. Turn 2 wins have become less frequent, but turn 3/4 wins have become almost guaranteed. It basically comes down to deathrite being only slightly worse than llanowar in matchups that are already favorable, but better in those that we have to grind out. If we get our board wiped or our hand countered into oblivion, deathrite can be one of the best topdecks to give you reach to seal it out. Kind of the same reason a deck like burn that tries to win turn 3 or 4 still runs grim lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Summoners pact fell out of flavor in that without an active glimpse it really isnt the best card to have and having to pay 4 next turn can really slow you down in a lot of cases. Paying the extra mana for GSZ and not having to pay 4 is better in most instances where you dont have an active glimpse up. We are trying to make this deck more consistent and as least reliant on a four-of as possible.
Also congratulations to John Harduvel for placing 12th at the recent scg. Heres his list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52281 I think if you take a ratio of how many total elf decks there are at these recent tournaments, and how often they get into top 16 spots, it really is up there with some of the best decks. A deck like rug might have 30 people piloting it and get 2-3 in the top 16, but a deck like elves will only have a couple and is still putting people up there.
I also play cheeri0s and recently ordered some Personal Tutor to finish the deck. Going to playtest it as a 2x of right now and see how it goes.