[Deck] The Rock

The maindeck Tracker is amazing, and I wouldn't cut it for anything right now. I cut Duress for it. It's great. Opponents rarely counter GSZ for X=1 since they think you're fetching a manadork. It's wonderful.

After analyzing everything, I think I may have made a few play mistakes, but I don't think they ended up costing me the game.

Cards I liked the most all day were Sylvan Library, Tracker, Knight (obviously), Tarmogoyf (anyone who says he's awful, he's a tank), and the Ooze.

I don't think SFM would have won me too many games where drawing removal and stuff would have, but I've been off the SFM plan for a while, and I won't be back on it unless combat gets more intense again. It would have dominated the Goblins game, but if I had drawn a removal spell all game, that would have done it as well.

Cards that I liked in the sideboard were definitely Choke and Timely. Zealous was pretty good, but I never ended up using EE much nor Perish since I faced zero Maverick or Elves. I would have rather have faced Elves in the last round, by far.

Overall, in the maindeck, Garruk and Life from the Loam were very good for the long-game. Garruk dominates games, especially with Tracker, and the 1-of Loam is great if you get behind on mana, need Maze/Karakas/Wastelands back from the grave. If you're running Moxen, I'd even suggest running 1-2. It's very solid.

Even though Garruk and Life get boarded out in matchups where they aren't as relevant, I still would keep them as they are. They're VERY good.

For the number of GSZ, I still like 3. I wouldn't cut that. Maelstrom Pulse was good also at 3.

Now, for Props and Slops.

Props:

Coconut water and granola bars
Tim Hortons coffee
Ultra Pro Pro Matte Sleeves
People thinking my Beta duals were collectors edition
People recognizing me by my Beta duals
Winning $50
American burgers
Going to the bathroom between every round

Slops:

Missing the fact Noble Hierarchs should have died to Zealous Persecution
Never drawing removal against Goblins
Not being aggressive enough in Game 1 vs. Goblins
Having to explain what Magic is to border guards

Hope you enjoyed it! Pictures to come!

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Live cards against goyf: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, relic.

Live cards against SFM: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, lightning bolt, forked bolt, quasali pridemage, stifle, phyrexian revoker, ancient grudge, duress, thoughtsieze, clique and whatever else affects creatures/cards in hand/triggered abilities.

Being rediculously huge for no commitment provides offense, defense, utility and even makes the player better looking to the opposite sex.

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Tseize and Clique hit goyf.

Some of the others (Stifle, Revoker, Duress) are seeing minimal play. Ancient grudge is SB only.

The only real standouts are burn spells. And it's just something you have to accept. It's also very easy to deal with. I've won so many games by just baiting burn spells with other creatures, then Stoneforge into win.

Your described advantages of goyfs are all over the truth spectrum:
Utility - no. He swings or blocks, that's it
Offense - eh, hopefully. Does it count when you're in a goyf stalemate, chump blocked by tokens, or losing to KotR?
Defense - yup. He sits there and blocks things pretty well
Sexiness - This is truth. The fairer sex finds Goyf players much sexier than Stoneforge players

They hit goyf just like they hit mystic but they hit the equipment in hand even harder. If you don't want to listen thats cool but if you are having trouble early game, which you are, then play more goyfs. Mystic almost competes with knight in the mid game slot and is much better on turns 3-5 when you have lands in play to cast the equipment.

Most of the plays I am describing are tempo plays that will just seal you out of the game against the faster aggro decks in the format.

SFM is a control are played in control decks

Goyf is the reason goblins stopped being tier one.

On goyf being utility: he is a walking abyss against Merfolk, zoo, and goblins. The best removal spell for a goyf is a goyf obviously, and you want to be the better knight deck than other knights(confidant allows you to out gas maverick). He also attacks like a truck.

Tempo argument, yes you're right. But I don't see how Goyf provides enough tempo to win, compared to the raw power of SFM

Confidant/Goyf/KotR are the three creatures that should definitely have a home. Numbers may vary, but they should be in your list. From there, it's a hodge-podge of Ooze/Stoneforge/etc.

The key to surviving against the faster decks is to survive the early turns, make your land drops and get to the point in the game where you can play maelstrom pulse/Garrick/multiple cards per turn/SFM/knight tricks aka where rock is good at the game.

Against fast decks goyf mucks up the ground and eats creatures until you get your bigger spells online.

Against combo goyf provides the fastest clock possible for your disruption to buy enough time to win.

He doesn't provide tempo as much as stops tempo when he needs to and races when he has to.

-Early game survival can be iffy for Stoneforge-over-Goyf builds, this is true.
-Goyf also gives you the most pressure for your money (relevant in those unfair deck MUs).

But outside of those points, Stoneforge does everything better. That's why I aim to play Stoneforge and buoy the few bad MUs than play Goyf and attempt to compensate for a greater number of bad MUs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Props:
Tim Hortons coffee

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Well, it was Canada Day. Sunday mornings Canadian pastors swap out their communion wine for the stuff.

I saw you used Tracker a bit in your report, but did you find he was worth it? Have you considered Sylvan Safekeeper in your slot so you have a non-white Mother of Runes that you can Tutor up? Seems pretty handy in keeping your KotRs safe from spot removal, and can grow them and Goyf if you sac Dryad Arbor. Maybe it would be better in a dedicated loam list, but seems decent enough.

Fingers-crossed SCG posts the list.

For sure. If I didn't have any Timmies, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have done quite as well.

Tracker was definitely worth it, but I haven't tried Safekeeper yet. I think I'd want more Loams like you said if I was on that plan.

Does anyone know who I contact to try and get Junk put up there? I mean, just because Cedric Phillips played Maverick doesn't mean they need to list him, and he came in 135th.

-Matt

It's worth a quick email. Not sure why they would have any problem when it just gives people a reason to buy Bobs and Bayous

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

-Early game survival can be iffy for Stoneforge-over-Goyf builds, this is true.
-Goyf also gives you the most pressure for your money (relevant in those unfair deck MUs).

But outside of those points, Stoneforge does everything better. That's why I aim to play Stoneforge and buoy the few bad MUs than play Goyf and attempt to compensate for a greater number of bad MUs

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Outside the fact that goyf helps in most/all problem matchups, stoneforge is better? I'm confused. Doesn't that make goyf a better card in this deck? I would suggest running 4 GSZ and 4 knight before any SFM, the card isn't better than your planeswalker of choice and takes up too many slots to justify running a vulnerable threat/board control engine.

I feel that stoneforge does nothing better than goyf other than search for jitte in matchups that it matters, jitte or other aggro hosers can be placed in the sideboard.

Please explain why SFM is the better card in rock or what matchups SFM would be a better late game card over planeswalkers or other antics.

Goyf is very good in only two fair-deck MUs: Merfolk and Goblins. Against Elves, you need Jitte; against RUG, you need lifegain and/or removal; against Maverick, the solution varies by situation, but you need utility to answer it.

SFM is good in all fair-deck MUs that Goyf is good in (and the MUs that Goyf is not good in), and is even better in those MUs than goyf is. The two points from my previous post are the ONLY situations where Goyf is better than SFM. Basically, SFM fully handles all the fair-deck MUs (the single most common MU in any tournament), and Goyf doesn't.

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

I may be wrong, but if we intend to go to the late game (thus optimizing sfm) we need pernicious deed (wich invalidates sfm). That's why I dropped it and decided to a more tempo-like version (mox, hymn, goyf). It's the build that is giving me the best results. Also my sb loam wants to go to main, but then I think I'll have to run 23 lands instead of 24. Any suggestions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

I may be wrong, but if we intend to go to the late game (thus optimizing sfm) we need pernicious deed (wich invalidates sfm). That's why I dropped it and decided to a more tempo-like version (mox, hymn, goyf). It's the build that is giving me the best results. Also my sb loam wants to go to main, but then I think I'll have to run 23 lands instead of 24. Any suggestions?

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Fine tuning the number of lands in Rock deck is an interesting exercise. If you go to 23 lands, just cut down on your fetches and you should come out just fine!

NB:
Sughayyer, your mention of Deed and SFM is correct. That's why most Rock decks play one or the other. Deed is for mid to late game, and is a stabilizing tool. SFM is for early to mid game (and can cover late game, if you hit more than one) and is for stabilizing (obviously not quite as superbly as Deed) and for winning

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Goyf is very good in only two fair-deck MUs: Merfolk and Goblins. Against Elves, you need Jitte; against RUG, you need lifegain and/or removal; against Maverick, the solution varies by situation, but you need utility to answer it.

SFM is good in all fair-deck MUs that Goyf is good in (and the MUs that Goyf is not good in), and is even better in those MUs than goyf is. The two points from my previous post are the ONLY situations where Goyf is better than SFM. Basically, SFM fully handles all the fair-deck MUs (the single most common MU in any tournament), and Goyf doesn't.

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

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Great post bro. Unless you actually find an argument where you are correct, I will stand by my view that goyf>SFM in all cases. Fair or not fair is for anyone to decide, goyf helps in more or the rocks problem matchups than SFM.

Tempo thresh cannot deal with a resolved goyf and can molest a SFM, I'm not sure where you are finding out otherwise....

Elves does fold to an active jitte but the fastest you can resolve SFM into jitte is turn 4(turn three with mox) and they should easily be able to combo off, GSZ for a shaman to kill the jitte, or use dryad arbor to keep counters off of the jitte, but whateves... SFM is a good card, herp derp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Tempo thresh cannot deal with a resolved goyf and can molest a SFM, I'm not sure where you are finding out otherwise....

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Not trying to pick a fight, but wouldn't Goyf only block a Goyf or a Mongoose? Delvers and Burn still get in there for a bit. While I chumps Goyfs and is better than Goose, it doesn't seem like the be all and end all (not that SFM is either).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Not trying to pick a fight, but wouldn't Goyf only block a Goyf or a Mongoose? Delvers and Burn still get in there for a bit. While I chumps Goyfs and is better than Goose, it doesn't seem like the be all and end all (not that SFM is either).

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Yes, that is correct, goyf only stops 2/3 of their threats so you can hold down the fort until your knights arrive.

Now I'm finally home and I can write a decent post :)
First, I'll talk about the metagame where I play, then I'll post my list explaining my choices... all suggestions are welcome!
At my local shop there are about 2 burns, 1-2 gw, 1-2 esper (one with lingering souls, the other is a traditional esper stoneblade), affinity, sneak & show, reanimator, bw deadguy, mud, tes, belcher, elves, goblins, merfolk, spiral tide/solidariety (I don't really know the difference) and a bw pox. These are mostly the decks I find there.

My list:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 thoughtseize
These usually are the best pointed discards, and work early and mid-game. The life loss that seize brings is seldom relevant.

4 hymn to tourach
I LOVE hymn. It is very rare for a hymn to be completely useless. It may not take away exactly what I need, but it hinders my opponent. Also is great against combo decks. It will always be a 2 for 1 (unless snared). I never had a hymn misdirected, but that would hurt, I know.

2 vindicate
2 maelstrom pulse
As I posted before, vindicate is an all-purpose removal, and pulse hits multiple targets.

4 swords to plowshares
3 mox diamond
fixes mana as well as enables nice turn 1 plays

1 sylvan library
3 sensei's divining top

3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

2 liliana of the veil

Lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

This is basically the dark horizons deck with -2 gerrard's veredict -1 bob + 1 library + 2 liliana.

My side is:
2 enlightened tutor (most of the side revovles around them)
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 pithing needle
1 conversion
1 nihil spellbomb
1 life from the loam
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
1 elspeth, knight errand
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 duress

I want to fit a choke in the side, and was thinking about moving loam to the main.
Maybe change to 23 lands, but I can't cut fetches - maybe the bog or karakas?

Another option is:
remove hymns, work with 6 pointed discards, 2 gsz, add fight bear, qasali on the main.
What do you think? (hope t wasn't too confusing)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Great post bro. Unless you actually find an argument where you are correct, I will stand by my view that goyf>SFM in all cases. Fair or not fair is for anyone to decide, goyf helps in more or the rocks problem matchups than SFM...

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I feel like both sides are making pointless arguments now.

Using Canadian Thresh as Goyf/Stoneforge protection? They play Goyf. goyf will stare at each other for a long time (Until someone finds any form of burn/removal - not pulse) or you die from them swinging overhead with Delver. Stoneforge also beats the deck as they can't reliably beat a Batterskull. Granted, they can just burn the mystic (if they have the burn spell). Or they may get a goyf that's big enough to block it.

Against Elves, both are too slow. And the example given against Stoneforge (tutor up Shaman...) is pointless. If they can tutor up shaman, they can tutor up THE INSECT and make the Goyf a time waste just the same and the Stoneforge. "Block. Bounce. Oh, you meant to just tap your guy for nothing? Ok... I guess". Removal is the only thing that matters there and Stoneforge acts as virtual copies of removal (Jitte). The only issue there, it's slow removal. Too slow.

Is Stoneforge Fragile? Yes. Goyf is typically the same or bigger on turn 2. Ironically though, outside of the red decks (admittedly, there are a lot right now) Goyf's impressive size isn't going to matter. All of the removal says Kill, Exile, or -5/-5. All of which solve an early Goyf.

Is Goyf utility? No. Goyf does two things: Turns sideways and stare. Both have their uses but that does not make it anymore utility than Vorstclaw.

What good are they?

Stoneforge allows you to find an answer for what you're playing against. Between what apears to be the two standard equipment (Jitte and Batterskull) one makes control upset while the other makes Aggro upset. A recurring creature is great vs control. Re-usable removal that doesn't strip spells from hand and speeds up the clock stomps aggro into the ground.

Goyf is a 'big' creature that swings quickly (since if you have the time you're probably dropping equipment first) and can usually provide pressure/protection in the early turns of the game. Mid-late game? You'd both probably agree you'd rather have a Knight or Ooze as they'll tend to be larger.

So which is better against unfair decks? Does it matter? You're not racing a Griselbrand or surviving an Emrakul's attack with either of them alone. Trying to race isn't going to work out too well. Try stabilizing their condition instead. I've been in places where I could mill the Emrakul decks because they let themselves get too far behind and I could hold it. Instead of arguing over beaters, why not try to figure that out instead.

As I ready my last couple posts I realized that I sounded like an asshole and for that I am sorry. I still feel like I am correct but I need to find a way to express the fact that my amazing girlfriend and I have been drinking since 10 form coming through in my messages.

TL:DR goyf still>SFM, but not in an angry drunk way.