Use docs.google.com and put them in there and make it so that everyone with the link can see it, then put the links in your sig :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
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Use docs.google.com and put them in there and make it so that everyone with the link can see it, then put the links in your sig :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Okay, that does it! I am getting into Nic Fit. I am a convert. I have been toying around with Pox lists lately. BG and BGw, both with loam. I love grindy, control decks and playing non-blue control is tons of fun. I am down to proxy and try all versions of Nic Fit to see what I like the most but I don't own any red duals and the blue duals I own don't tap for green! So, I will go the Rector build first to see how I like that. I have most of the deck, just need to pick up some of the bullets and utility 1-ofs.
GSZ is universal I assume, even in the Rector version? It seems as though it's still used just not as heavily? Also, I noticed that the Rector versions don't seem to use as many enchantments as I would expect. Deed, Nightmare, Moat (of which I have none), what else? I've seen Phyrexian Arena, Fetters, and not much else...so I will go this route and try to break here further.
Thanks for always creating a great discussion to follow. Now, I can take part in it.
Welcome to the club =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
Non-blue control is definitely awesome!
GSZ is indeed universal. All versions run either 3 or 4 copies, although 2 has (rarely) been seen as well. Off the top of my head, Rector features the following as targets:
4 Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe
2 Witness
1 Empath (-> Titan + Yosei)
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
(SB) 1 Ooze or Deathrite
That gives a total of 12 creatures, which is a fifth of your deck. While it's true that Green Sun can't find things like Rectors and Baneslayers, there's still plenty of utility to be had. Also, there have been many games where Green Sunning for X=0 just for a shuffle for Top is perfectly acceptable. I'll grant that it might not be quite as much of an all-star in Rector as it is in something like Scapewish (or Maverick, obviously), but it's still definitely quite powerful and integral to the deck.
As for enchantments:
3 Deed
1 Moat
1 Fetters
1 Nightmare
1 Arena
(SB options)
3 Rectors with 7 targets isn't a bad ratio, especially since you can't rely on them to go off. There is a go-to enchantment in those 7 for each situation. It's worth keeping in mind that Rector can always act as removal thanks to Fetters, and that works for -any- non-Progenitus permanent, including Thrun, Emrakul, etc. You can reasonably expect to set off one, maybe two Rectors per game. That lets you get your go-to, and then any one secondary. You'll also be drawing some naturally, of course, Topping to find them, etc.
The other thing with Rector is that, there's only so much room for bullets maindeck. The list as I have it is incredibly tight, and it's really hard to find room for other fun stuff. Most of that gets relegated to the board. I usually have anywhere from 3-6 "bullet" enchantments in my board that I can bring in to wreak havoc on any specific archetype I don't like. When you consider those alongside the maindeck options, there is actually quite a large number of targets. It balances out a lot better in actual play than it seems like it should when you just look at it.
If you don't have access to a Moat, you should at least proxy it for now and try it out. It really does make a big difference to the deck. That said, you can run Rector without Moat -- it just requires a few design considerations (Baneslayer isn't quite as necessary, although she's still stupid good....you need an Armada Wurm for sure at that point, etc).
But yeah -- welcome to the discussion!
@arianrhod
Did you finally get rid of that stupid rusalka? :D happy days
Also regarding moat, moat is a good card but not a must IMO. Been playing with a humility in that slot instead and to be honest, I do find myself sideboarding out the humility quite a lot buuut when I actually play against a deck where its good, its crazy good.
Moat stops like all the tribal decks? elves/goblin/merfolk but thing is, deed does that as well. Deed destroys(destroies? no that cant be right) everything they have whereas Moat doesnt and as soon as they find an answer to it(moat) - they run over you as they still have all their shit in play.
But again, if I had the option to run Moat i'd probably do that. That card can save you a lot of time but again it's really not the end of the world if u doesn't own one.
Been playing with the Rector version a lot now against all kind of decks. I like it more and more and big thanks to you arianrhod for creating this. Not running the exactly same maindeck as you do but its close. Faith's Fetters is indeed better than o-ring. I was just playing with a friend of mine, an hour ago, and I put faith's fetters onto his jace through rector and like 4 turns later he played another jace not realizing that his previous jace is still in play as I didn't actually o-ring it. :-)
Isn't that just the greatest feeling ever @jace vs Fetters?Quote:
Originally Posted by litenkatt
Also, you're right -- it's destroys. English is dumb, I know.
Rusalka is still there and is still an all-star, sadly. I just forgot to include it on the list, because it's a fucking Rusalka.
The issue with Deed vs Tribal is that isn't doesn't necessarily stop them. Goblins in particular can be rough because so much of their stuff is higher CMC. Moat is more to supplement your Deeds and other removal. It can also cause serious problems for Maverick, if they can't draw a Green Sun. It kolds Metalworker except for Hellkite...and most of them only run that as a one-of (then there's Karn, but we don't talk about him...)
But yeah -- I do agree that Moat isn't necessary, but I would say that once you start winning with the deck without Moat, you probably want to put your winnings towards a Moat. It definitely makes a difference once you have it.
And thanks -- she's my baby =)
EDIT-
It occurs to me that I should note that while I believe Moat to be good but "optional," Nether Void, IMO, is not. If you don't want you underwear pulled up around your head vs Storm and Omniscience, Nether Void is the only correct choice. I've tested out a whole hell of a lot of ways to piss off combo decks, and I can definitely state that Void is far and away the best. It's definitely an expensive, hard to find piece -- but it's your best out to combo, and IMO you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't put the effort into finding and acquiring one.
The one thing about Moat as compared to deed is against Goblins (the most heavily played tribe) cannot answer a resolved Moat. At that point their only way they can win is with Seige Gang Commander. Merfolk can fly over with Coralhelm Commander, Elves has the best chance of destroying the Moat if they have a Viridian Emissary.
Deed is honestly not that good vs Goblins... They can reload so quickly and easily.
Why not Engineered Plague over Moat for Tribal?
Plague sucks against lord effects and doesn't help against Delver or Maverick.
What do you guys rocking Scapewish think of cutting a Wood Elf for an Oracle of Mul Daya? It seems like such a beast in that deck on it's on, and even better seeing as that list runs x4 GSZ.
Damia, Sage of Stone seems hot in those Future Fit builds.
Plague sucks yeahQuote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Damia: Not really I guess. I mean it is playable with Gift, Nightmare and so. But seems to me too heavy to set up. And you will want to set Future Sight first. In terms of castable creature, I would rather go for Consecrated Sphinx, or even Sphinx of Uthuun.
@Megadeus: kinda weird, with BGw I never had any trouble vs goblins. And Rector/Deed always won the game. I mean, Veteran and Rector are Moat-like.
@Qweerios : That reminds me this, I still don't understand why, but Goblins are coming back in the meta, and you can't quite ignore them or they would hit hard enough to remind you why StP is StP. I mean OTD Lackey Turn 1, without Veteran in the starting 7, and Decay instead of StP... Baaaaaaaaaaaah
Question: please can I have your opinions to fine tune my deck for the Dutch Legacy championship this Sunday.
Although I am aware that Starved Rusalka is still a favourite for rector nicfit I also noted that Ooze gets boarded in quite a lot. So why would I not play mainboard Ooze instead of Rusalka. imo it does a lot more, especially game 1.
SB: 9 slots taken
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Humility
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Memorocide
This leaves 6 slots: 11 cards to choose from
1 Nethervoid (if I can borrow it)
1 Vraska
1 Abrubt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raking Canopy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Curse of deaths hold
2 Aven Mindcensor
Apart from the above I am going to run the standard Rector list thanks to Arianrhod
I must admit I've more experience with ScapeFit (or whatever the best name if for the Scapeshift/Burning Wish version) but here goes...
Starved Rusalka is only in the deck for being a Zenith-able sacoutlet for Academy Rector if you ask me.
Scavenging Ooze fits a completly different role: gravehate (and incidental lifegain) The requirement for gravehate highly depends on the matchup.
-Dredge hate: You need a shitload of mana to keep up with the dredges. Getting Moat into play with Rector solves most issues (unless they use Flayer of the Hatebound and/or Angel of Despair)
-Snapcaster hate: Are you really worried about the flashback of spells with Snapcaster?
-Knight of the Reliquary hate: Moat solves that.
-Loam hate: Getting rid of Loam helps (especially against AggroLoam) but Lands doesnt roll over without Loam. Ooze might be better than Moat here but you still have Memoricide
-Reanimator hate: Ooze is better than Moat since allot of fatties fly and Moat gets bounced by Tidespout Tyrant.
If I were to play the Championship (too bad I cant attend...) and would play RectorFit, I would maindeck Rusalka over Ooze. You need to know what your bad matchups are and determine if Ooze is better than Rusalka. I just feel that overall Rusalka is more flexible since the deck resolves around Rector allot.
I do know where you're coming from with the Ooze question though. I had the same feeling with the ScapeFit list. I cut a Huntmaster for Ooze a couple of times because I felt cold to graveyard decks. If I were to play ScapeFit I would run the 3rd Huntmaster over Ooze (not even putting it in the 75) because it feels like the better creature overall.
@Kanti -- Cutting a Wood Elves for anything is a horrible idea. If you need to shave a spot anywhere, take a Huntmaster. I still don't advocate cutting them, but if you need to cut something, that's the "weakest link." Wood Elves is the glue that holds the whole deck together. The deck gets much worse without 3 Wood Elves.
@Cire_DK -- XdeckX is pretty much spot on as far as Rusalka goes. There's an important point to note here:
I don't think anyone will disagree that our deck runs off of synergy. The whole thing looks like an enormous pile, but it's so synergistic that works really well. That's because it's a Web. Nic Fit runs off of multiple tutor axes, and the whole deck revolves around them. The best Nic Fit decks run more than just Green Sun, but all of them share Green Sun. Let's dissect Rector a bit.
You have two axes: Rector, and Green Sun. Ideally, you want it so that each axis interacts favorably with the others, and you want a cross-fire coverage. So, let's look at vs Show and Tell, let's say. Rector can find Humility, and GSZ can find Empath, which in turn can put Angel of Serenity into your hand. Alternatively, GSZ can also find Harmonic Sliver. Humility is the strongest option here, so if you have a Rector and a GSZ, you probably GSZ for Rusalka to sac Rector -> Humility.
If you need a sac outlet, you can Rector for Recurring Nightmare, or GSZ for Rusalka.
Combo? Rector Nether Void or GSZ Ichneumon Druid.
Playing vs a fair deck and need a bomb? Nightmare loop, or Sigarda/Empath.
Need some card advantage? Phyrexian Arena and Thragtusk/Witness.
Removal? Fetters and Witness (or Sigarda).
Ramp? Carpet of Flowers and Explorer/Sakura-Tribe.
And so on. If thinking of it like a Web doesn't work for you, try thinking of it like a parallel drive engine. You have two gears (Rector and GSZ), and you want those two gears to do essentially the same thing (propel you forward), but at different rates. Sometimes Rector's bullets will be more powerful, sometimes GSZ will. Etc.
Now, for your board. What kind of meta are you expecting at Dutch nationals? They tend to play a lot of combo over there, right?
Ooze is falling the rest of the way out of my favor now that we have Deathrite Shaman. As XdeckX pointed out, you have to sink a ton of mana into Ooze to keep up, and Ooze leaves you more vulnerable to Reanimator, whereas Shaman comes down much quicker.
Especially considering Europe's fondness for combo, I would do anything you can get to your hands on a Nether Void for the event. If you just can't make it happen, run Curse of Exhaustion instead (4-mana 1-sided Rule of Law). It's nowhere near as good, but it's the best you'll be able to do.
Vraska is junk. I've tried her, and she's sadly unplayable.
You definitely want the Cranial Extraction to go along with the Memoricide. That is a pair -- I wouldn't just run one or the other. It's your best line of defense against combo -and- control, because it hits control's few wincons, and it strips away key cards from combo. I mean, if you get them under Nether Void, then that's awesome -- and then if you can work up enough mana to Cranial, you can take away their out (probably a bounce spell, or a wish) and just leave them hardlocked. It's also solid against Show and Tell. Those cards are universal -- Humility doesn't come in vs storm, and Nether Void doesn't come in vs non-Omniscience Show/Tell (only Omni varieties...and I guess Hypergenesis, for the 2 people that play that).
Mindcensors are junk. I'm experimenting with those slots currently. One of them I'm sure I want to test is Angel of Serenity, because that gives GSZ web/dual drive coverage against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, but is ALSO a huge bomb in any kind of grindy matchup / a Nic Fit mirror, which Angel of Despair can't do. The other slot has been changing something like 5 times a day, but they're both experimental.
Raking Canopy is good vs Miracles and Delver. Miracles will oftentimes bring in O-Ring/Sphere, or Disenchant...rarely both. The strategy is regardless the same -- you attack their deck with Extirpates and Cranial effects, while deploying permanents that they MUST solve before they can beat you. Deed, Raking Canopy, etc. They can't actually win with those cards in play. I like Canopy personally, but it depends on how much Miracles/Stoneblade you expect to see. It's good vs Delver, but Delver isn't a reason to board it.
Curse of Death's Hold is something that's fallen out of favor for me. It's too expensive for too little gain. If it was -2/-2, then I'd probably run it....but 5 mana for a blanket -1/-1 is steep. You can do better.
Thoughtseize is something I have mixed feelings about. I could see them in the 2x Mindcensor slot, At the same time, the one thing that the deck REALLY just straight up curls up and dies to is Sanctified combo -- any combo deck with Leyline of Sanctity. You can steal wins here and there with Rector finding some bullshit, but that is overwhelmingly a bad matchup. If the deck has an achilles heel, that's it. Thoughtseize does nothing to rectify that problem -- and in fact just makes it worse, because you have more dead cards in your deck. I would rather run more nontargeted ways of interacting instead of Thoughtseize.
From the little I know of the European meta in general (I'm thinking GP Amsterdam specifically here), I would suggest the following:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Humility
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Raking Canopy
1 Nether Void/Curse of Exhaustion
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Angel of Serenity/Angel of Despair
1. I'm unfamiliar with Maverick, but Delver flies over Moat anyway.
2. Of course plague is going to be bad if you play it before you deed like you can with Moat. In fact it's the opposite: you deed first then lay down the plague to keep them off their beats.
@XdeckX Thanks for your input, very usefull advice. Sorry you cant make the championship'.
@Arianrhod
Thank you for your fantastic reply and analysis. The more I read about Nic Fit and play the deck, the more I am loving it.
Unfortunately I do not own a Ichmeun Druid or Curse of exhaustion but I might be able to get the last one before Sunday.
I will try to remember enough about my games to write a hopefully usefull report next week.
Scryb Ranger for mana accel? Seems very easy to take advantage of, and is far less susceptible to wasteland hate like Arbor Elf. Only problem is that it only works on your turn as mana accel (though you can save the Forest during any turn). Kinda competes with S-TE, but might be useful in very color-intensive lists (ya'know: the one's that run 3 colors and want two of each color with four mana open?).
Haven't been near a computer much lately, but here I am to share some thoughts!
No. Just no. It doesn't even accelerate unless you don't have another land in hand. It sets you back land drops and we have zero creatures worth untapping anyway. It's good in Maverick because they can operate on few lands and have plenty of creatures worth untapping like Knight, Mom, Hierarch, and Fauna Shaman and wears equipment like a boss. It does nothing in this deck. Play StE, play Wood Elves, play Nature's Lore, play BoP, but for the love of God, don't play Scryb Ranger.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
G/B is still really good by the way. I know some of you are moving away from it, but with a tuned list, it's still awesome. I've had no problems killing people with Grave Titan/Primeval Titan and not getting fancy about it.
On another note, I've been developing a Future Sight list as well. I'll post the list and some thoughts about it later when I get home.
I'm going to a small local tournament tomorrow (between 8-16 people, but almost only tier decks). This is the deck I'm gonna bring:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
G/B Nic Fit
5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Malestrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Angel of Despair
1 Golgari Charm
Dryad Arbor:I used to play arbor. It was great when I had just cast a Therapy and either whiffed/hit and discovered that my opponent had two or more of the same card in hand. Then I could just use my fetchland, find the arbor and destroy his hand (this was really important against combo, not so much other decks). However, with Golgari Charm in the sideboard in addition to the lack of synergy with Deed (also a surprisingly number of times I draw arbor with my starting hand), I decided to cut it and added another forest instead. The addition of a playset of Abrupt Decay makes it very important that I consistantly hit Green/Black on turn two, and it sucks if my only green source is a dryad arbor with summoning sickness.
Deathrite Shaman:I use 1 as a target for Green Sun's Zenith. The card has proven strong in testing, helping against a wide variety of match-ups: Against burn, U/R Delver, Reanimator and Dredge. Funny story: Last tournament it saved me against [card]Blood Moon[/card]. I was playing against Imperial Painter and was locked out of black mana. I drew into a Green Sun's Zenith, tutored for a shaman and next round exiled a fetchland in my yard for black mana, cast Pernicious Deed and destroyed the blood moon as well as a grindstone and a [card]Magus of the Moon[/card] (unfortunately also my shaman, but c'est la vie).
Abrupt Decay:Very useful card. Great against RUG Delver, counterbalance. There is always something for it to hit, in almost every matchup. (Although I board it out every now and again, for example against Hive Mind). Many people play three instead of the full set, but I love this card to death and I'm almost never sad when I draw it.
Angel of Despair:Combo can be tricky. There is quite a bit Show and Tell in my local meta. Mostly in the form of Hive Mind and Omnitell. Angel of Despair kicks ass when it hits. However, it might be difficult running such a narrow hate card instead of a card that has broader applications against combo in general (more pointed discard, memoricide-effects, etc.). This is a meta-call.
Golgari Charm:Just testing this. It's useful against Maverick, Death & Taxes, Belcher (to kill goblin tokens), Affinity, Elves and Enchantress a way to kill my own Explorers. The regeneration effect is less useful, but it can still come up from time to time.
@Vicar: I'm just getting into Nic Fit and am curious how your list plays out. I have been testing RectorFit which is very tool box oriented. This has made it fruitless to goldfish. I still have just to see how certain hands unfold after 2-5 turns our so. But your list looks more like traditional mid-range control, which I am far more used to.
I will post questions and comments after more testing this weekend. I can already say that I need that stupid Rasulka. Y'all were right, being able to GSZ for a Sac outlet has been so important. You can keep so many more hands. Anyway, I won't blow my load, I'll post all of my newbie insights later.
@Vicar
Re: Golgari Charm. I'm playing it in my G/B board as well. Don't forget it blows up Sylvan Libraries, Humilities, Moats, and Counterbalances too.
Hey guys, new to The Source here, I've been lurking here for a while and have been wanting to make a move into Legacy. I love the colors and style of Nic Fit and it seems relatively inexpensive compared to other Legacy decks.
I recently got a fairly good deal on 3 Rectors so I am locking myself into that build.
Based on Arianrhod's WIP Primer (Thanks a lot, Arianrhod, very well done primer so far):
I have been making changes to this list based on budget reasons and here is what I have so far.Quote:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Wood Elves
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Moat
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Aven Mindscensor
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
Swapping duals for shocks
Duals are simply too expensive for me right now.
-3 Windswept Heaths, +1 Verdant Catacombs, +2 Marsh Flats:
I read in earlier posts that it is very important for fetches to fetch basic forests but are the 3x Windswept Heaths worth the extra $90?
-1 Vindicate, +1 Maelstrom Pulse:
Not too concerned about this.
-1 Thragtusk, +1 Kitchen Finks:
I understand Thragtusk is much better than Finks, but with 'Tusk being in standard I think he is overpriced at the moment. Finks should do fine for the time being.
-1 Moat, +1 Island Sanctuary:
This is the biggest concern for me, Island Sanctuary has a similar effect to Moat but doesn't affect my creatures, opening up some finishers that are not normally considered for a Moat build, skipping the draw step, however, is a very large drawback. I'm very certain running Island Sanctuary probably isn't worth it at all, but I have always like the card since I started playing Magic ~10 years ago (One of the older players at the time had a sick Sleeper Agent/Island Sanctuary/Peacekeeper deck, probably the first control deck I have ever played against).
-1 Sigarda, +1 Thrun:
Without Moat Thrun seems much better, cheaper too.
The only issue in the sideboard is Chains of Mephistopheles. It seems like a very unique card. I'll likely have to just bite the bullet on that one eventually.
I have been trying to find other alternatives to Baneslayer and Kokusho (Kokusho probably isn't replaceable) but there are so many options. In his primer, Arianrhod explained the purpose each of the finishers but without Moat I feel the line of thought in regards to finishers changes completely.
I would just like to hear your guys' opinions on my changes, most specifically my Moat problem. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks so much for all the work you guys have done already.