Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Sascja

With decks in the top8 of ovino, you do not think would have been better Vendilion main deck?
The only "bad" match up, where vendilion are not good, is merfolk.

Last question, the mountain is so bad main deck?
Not being able to put REB agaist RUG deck is a real shame (and every blue deck with wasteland), especially now with TC e DTT.


ps I apologize for my bad English

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Couple thoughts.

Cliques are extremely powerful in this deck. In the list I've been running currently, I have three in the main deck. (Unless that week I happen to switch to Ein's... I like trying as many lists as possible). With the ponder build, you are trading power for consistency. You can more consistently find what you are looking for, which, at the base of things, can give you an advantage. Ponder replaces clique, as well as the third snapcaster, as they are both accomplishing similar goals. Clique is a threat that helps filter your deck or distrupt your opponent, and snapcaster generates extra card advantage. Ponder generates pure card advantage and is an extra shuffle effect. I realize that that doesn't really answer the question, as I have not looked at the top 8, but having 3 Cliques out of the board sounds like it'd make things easier.

Mountain is bad if you don't have MD Blast effects, as it makes some number of opening hands incredibly awkward. You take a bit of a hit in the delver matchups as REB becomes unavailable, but with 3 Flusterstorms, 3 Cliques, and EE in the board, PLUS 3 snaps and 4 swords in the main, you should be able to strongarm your way through the matchup. This is also, on a sidenote, why Disenchant is run over Wear // Tear. You want to be grabbing a red source only when you absolutely need it, or when you know your opponent isn't running wastelands, or is only running it as like, a one or two-of, and the red is relevant in the matchup (Stoneblade). Not to mention between your MD and SB you shouldn't NEED REB effects vs. Delver decks (though, I can see how it'd be nice, and am in fact running a basic mountain in my current go-to list)

I've said this before and I'll say it again, TC and DTT are going to change legacy, but they will not shift the meta. I don't think two cards should force you into playing a basic mountain and screw up your manabase just to counteract it. Between flusterstorm, counterspell, snapcaster, and force of will, you should be more than capable of handling the card. REB effects are the ace in the hole vs. the card, but in at least the eyes of ein's deck, where almost 50% of the time you require a blue source on turn 1 (have ponder, don't have top), you don't want to take the chance.

That being said, I'm very much in the camp of building Miracles the way you want to build it, and find a build that suits you. That's why I'm so ok with trying out different builds. I've only been playing the deck since March. Currently, I happen to like the Legendary Build. In two weeks, I could be back on Ponders. That, to me, is in part what makes the deck great.

EDIT for pedanticism ;)

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Originally Posted by exallium

Clique is a threat that generates card advantage, as is snapcaster.

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I don't mean to nitpick but...
Clique does not generate card advantage. It replaces the card in your hand/opponent's hand. That's not advantage or disadvantage. You're disrupting their game plan or putting useless cards in your hand on the bottom of your library.

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Originally Posted by sauce

I don't mean to nitpick but...
Clique does not generate card advantage. It replaces the card in your hand/opponent's hand. That's not advantage or disadvantage. You're disrupting their game plan or putting useless cards in your hand on the bottom of your library.

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Distruption, sure. I guess I was thinking less about removing a card / gaining a card altogether and thinking more along the lines of the filtering effect. It's a high variance effect, but can definitely make your hand better / their hand worse. Depends on how you define card advantage. If you just think raw number of cards in hand, no, this does not provide such a thing, but if you replace, say, a dead entreat you have no interest in keeping around, and draw, say, something useful at the current stage in the game, I'd see that as advantageous. Of course that's neither here or there.

Hopefully people know what I mean / meant.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Couple thoughts.
Cliques are extremely powerful in this deck. In the list I've been running currently, I have three in the main deck. (Unless that week I happen to switch to Ein's... I like trying as many lists as possible). With the ponder build, you are trading power for consistency. You can more consistently find what you are looking for, which, at the base of things, can give you an advantage. Ponder replaces clique, as well as the third snapcaster, as they are both accomplishing similar goals. Clique is a threat that helps filter your deck or distrupt your opponent, and snapcaster generates extra card advantage. Ponder generates pure card advantage and is an extra shuffle effect. I realize that that doesn't really answer the question, as I have not looked at the top 8, but having 3 Cliques out of the board sounds like it'd make things easier.

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Fundamentally, here's the biggest difference: Ponder allows you to make your land drops, which is perhaps the 2nd most important thing in Miracles. As a control deck, you need to make your land drop and not lose to Wastelands, so many matches are due to Wasteland. By making land drops, you get yourself out of tempo deck's Daze and perhaps Pierce.

However, after those land drops, Ponder's return starts to diminish. You can achieve shuffling effect of Ponder by using Top + fetchlands. When you reach mid-game, you really want Clique to do its wonderful things like shoving equipment back into the library, taking out combo pieces, ambushing a Planeswalker, and trading it against dudes when you lack removal. Last but not least, I can't count how many times Lossett just kill his opponent outright with Clique. Snapcaster is not even close.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Couple thoughts.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, TC and DTT are going to change legacy, but they will not shift the meta. I don't think two cards should force you into playing a basic mountain and screw up your manabase just to counteract it. Between flusterstorm, counterspell, snapcaster, and force of will, you should be more than capable of handling the card. REB effects are the ace in the hole vs. the card, but in at least the eyes of ein's deck, where almost 50% of the time you require a blue source on turn 1 (have ponder, don't have top), you don't want to take the chance.

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I disagree. When TC and DTT become popular, Goyf will start to lose its effectiveness. Goyf usually can become 5/6 easily; now..., it's very possible it'll just be a 3/4. Hence, The meta is changing, fast. Bob Huang mentioned that Swiftspear is Red's new Goyf, in his deck at the least. Here's another trend: TC just laughs at Ancestral Vision; yes, the threshold requirement at sorcery speed is that easy, why wait for all the turns or bother to set-up with shardless + brainstorm?

The problem with TC and DTT is that when they cast it, they're usually out of Pierce range. Hence, without running a specific build, you need to counterspell it, or double Pierce using Snapcaster. That means you have to run more CS and less Pierce, which makes you more vulnerable in other match-ups. One solution is just run Lossett's build, because MD Blasts have no problem taking care of these cards, along with Delvers.

Overall, it's time to adopt, especially if you're going to NJ.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Fundamentally, here's the biggest difference: Ponder allows you to make your land drops, which is perhaps the 2nd most important thing in Miracles. As a control deck, you need to make your land drop and not lose to Wastelands, so many matches are due to Wasteland. By making land drops, you get yourself out of tempo deck's Daze and perhaps Pierce.

However, after those land drops, Ponder's return starts to diminish. You can achieve shuffling effect of Ponder by using Top + fetchlands. When you reach mid-game, you really want Clique to do its wonderful things like shoving equipment back into the library, taking out combo pieces, ambushing a Planeswalker, and trading it against dudes when you lack removal. Last but not least, I can't count how many times Lossett just kill his opponent outright with Clique. Snapcaster is not even close.



I disagree. When TC and DTT become popular, Goyf will start to lose its effectiveness. Goyf usually can become 5/6 easily; now..., it's very possible it'll just be a 3/4. Hence, The meta is changing, fast. Bob Huang mentioned that Swiftspear is Red's new Goyf, in his deck at the least. Here's another trend: TC just laughs at Ancestral Vision; yes, the threshold requirement at sorcery speed is that easy, why wait for all the turns or bother to set-up with shardless + brainstorm?

The problem with TC and DTT is that when they cast it, they're usually out of Pierce range. Hence, without running a specific build, you need to counterspell it, or double Pierce using Snapcaster. That means you have to run more CS and less Pierce, which makes you more vulnerable in other match-ups. One solution is just run Lossett's build, because MD Blasts have no problem taking care of these cards, along with Delvers.

Overall, it's time to adopt, especially if you're going to NJ.

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Again, I say one thing and mean another. Legacy's constantly changing, and this'll definitely represent a CHANGE in the meta, but I don't think the top decks are going to suddenly become invalid (besides shardless, which seems to have gotten the solid shaft by these new cards), which is what I meant by SHIFT. Miracles doesn't become worse, you just need to plan ahead.

I'm actually currently running Chi Hoi Yim's build, which is very close to what Joe runs, and includes MD blast. I've been very happy with this build so far.

Can you elaborate on adopt? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Did you mean adapt?

EDIT: I'm quite upset that Shardless is probably going to die off. It was back for such a short period of time.

Lists for most of the Ovino Top 16 have been posted - http://www.mtgq.it/liste-top16-main-event-legacy/
There are 5 Miracle Players, the 2 Ponder builds already mentioned; A Clique/Karakas build; a 4 Jace/3Entreat build; one not listed.

Clique/Spell Pierce vs Ponders seems more based on preference.

Spell Pierce and Cliques are better vs combo while Ponders increase consistency vs fair decks.

I run zero ponders and can accept the general decrease in consistency against fair decks. But that's my general preference. Also without Cliques this deck is slow as a turtle in Killing combo decks.

Joe described it perfectly at the invitational. His deck is better suited for the combo match up and Philips list is better suited for the fair decks.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Can you elaborate on adopt? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Did you mean adapt?

EDIT: I'm quite upset that Shardless is probably going to die off. It was back for such a short period of time.

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Yes, I mean adapt, stupid auto-correct. This is not the first time. Decks don't die off, they just evolve. Abrupt Decay + Liliana + Jace = good "Sultai" decks, see? Already evolving with the deck names. As to Miracles, yes different builds focus on different things. I'm not even sure if the Ponder builds can take the fair deck MU well now, with all the Cruises and Digs running around (people prefer to test new cards).

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I'm not even sure if the Ponder builds can take the fair deck MU well now, with all the Cruises and Digs running around (people prefer to test new cards).

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Wow, for the first time I'm realizing that Treasure Cruise s**ts on Counterbalance. Not that it was great in that matchup in the first place, but game 1's will be worse if you rely on the combo and try and wait them out of cards. You can still counter the majority of cards they draw off the cruise, but giving them Ancestral Visions just increases the number of Decays they draw, along with awkward casting cost spells. We don't run Remand in Legacy, but Venser at least should be better.

But maybe running as many cantrips as High Tide will be so much better at finding Terminus and Entreat that they'll prove better than incremental cards like Clique. I assume that 4 Ponders is better against Shardless.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Clique/Spell Pierce vs Ponders seems more based on preference.

Spell Pierce and Cliques are better vs combo while Ponders increase consistency vs fair decks.

I run zero ponders and can accept the general decrease in consistency against fair decks. But that's my general preference. Also without Cliques this deck is slow as a turtle in Killing combo decks.

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Hey guys this is Tomáš, thank you for your support.

Game 1 you hardlock all combo decks with CB. You do not need to be very fast. (you can still entreat) Game 2-3 to you have 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm...

I have found that, against Cruise, Counterbalance is a house. While you can not directly counter the Cruise, they almost never draw anything we cannot just hit with Balance anyway. So while they win the battle and draw 3,they lose the war and get to cast almost none of them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

Game 1 you hardlock all combo decks with CB. You do not need to be very fast. (you can still entreat) Game 2-3 to you have 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm...

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You don't hardlock Sneakshow with Counterbalance and even with 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm etc. Sneakshow is not a positive MU overall.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Wow, for the first time I'm realizing that Treasure Cruise s**ts on Counterbalance. Not that it was great in that matchup in the first place, but game 1's will be worse if you rely on the combo and try and wait them out of cards. You can still counter the majority of cards they draw off the cruise, but giving them Ancestral Visions just increases the number of Decays they draw, along with awkward casting cost spells. We don't run Remand in Legacy, but Venser at least should be better.

But maybe running as many cantrips as High Tide will be so much better at finding Terminus and Entreat that they'll prove better than incremental cards like Clique. I assume that 4 Ponders is better against Shardless.

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I agree with what Dice Box says on CB versus Treasure Cruise decks. It's probably less of lock against Abrupt Decay, but that is not a problem since Miracles was even to good against Abrupt Decay decks before anyways. One of those decks, Shardless, is probably on its way out of the metagame, as much as I hate to say it. RIP Shardless :cry: The other BUG Deck, Team America, is not even guaranteed to maintain its rank either. BUG decks, at least those that were in the Tier One metagame prior to Khans, may generally see a decline. There is empirical evidence that this may be the case since Team America and Shardless BUG did pretty bad at Ovino according to one of the person's part of the TO staff I presume (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-info/page2).

I also think you are spot on with your second paragraph. The reason I believe that Miracles is the only good hard control deck at the moment in a fast and diverse format like legacy is because Sensei's Divining Top gives it unparalleled card quality. The card quality it provides is so good that I have been able to shirk off many Treasure Cruises because i just don't care as long as I have top I am still in the game. This is not to say it is important to get counterbalance top online as soon as you can against these decks, but I never felt like I was just completely dead when my opponents resolve Treasure Cruise unless I'm behind on board and have little to no resources left to interact with my opponent. As for whether playing 4-Ponder is correct or not, I am not going to say whether or not you guys should be playing it or it is the best build of Miracles. I do not have enough experience with the deck to feel like I can militantly push it like Ein is doing. However, I will say that I do prefer it and I think that playing 4 Ponder just makes Miracles ability to generate unparalleled card quality even better and more consistent, which is something you want in a more open field. For smaller metagames like your LGS I'm sure the other builds can do better depending on the given metagame's conditions.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

You don't hardlock Sneakshow with Counterbalance and even with 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm etc. Sneakshow is not a positive MU overall.

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Are we only talking Ein's list or Miracles in general? I think the Legends build has a fine matchup vs. Sneak and Show, because of Karakas, Venser, Blasts, Pierce, Needle, etc.

EDIT: by fine, I'm talking not bad. Yes, there are unwinnable hands but as long as you know what your board plan is and you know how to prioritize your spells you can definitely win.

jussayin: DTT is likely to replace SCM. You heard it here first :cool:

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Originally Posted by exallium

Are we only talking Ein's list or Miracles in general? I think the Legends build has a fine matchup vs. Sneak and Show, because of Karakas, Venser, Blasts, Pierce, Needle, etc.

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That is not true.

Game 1 is self-explanatory.

SB games get more complicated: Sneak and Show could bring in: Boseiju, JTMS, Blood Moon, Through the Breach.
Boseiju shuts off all counters, Blood Moon is against less skilled Miracle players and it would shut off Karakas, Through the Breach is harder for CB to lock-down, also work with Boseiju. If all fails, they can still try to jam Jace.

Rather than stressing Ponders, it's more about Snapcaster Mages. Once you stop running 3 Snapcasters, maybe 1 or 2 instead, you will naturally incline to run less than 4 Ponders. It's only natural to go down in Snapcaster count, once you run DTT. Without much testing, it's really Snapcasters vs. DTT, difficult to have Snapcasters and DTT in the same deck.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

That is not true.

Game 1 is self-explanatory.

SB games get more complicated: Sneak and Show could bring in: Boseiju, JTMS, Blood Moon, Through the Breach.
Boseiju shuts off all counters, Blood Moon is against less skilled Miracle players and it would shut off Karakas, Through the Breach is harder for CB to lock-down, also work with Boseiju. If all fails, they can still try to jam Jace.

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I think the only really scary card in that list is Boseiju. The rest can be fairly well played around, especially BM with 8 basics. That being said, they can't cast Sneak Attack with Boseiju and keep it uncounterable, and if they cast Show and Tell, you have plenty of options (like Needle, but list dependant) to keep whatever they stick into play under control.

Yes it's not positive. I never said it was. It's a hard matchup against a blundering, linear, stupid deck. But if you know what angles you have and what your opponent is trying to do, and what cards to look for off your brainstorms and fetches, I don't see how it's insurmountable. I actually find it quite fun. Especially when you crush them. Miracles isn't supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be effective and rewarding of strong play.

Remember kids, you get to see what they put into play with Show and Tell before you name anything with your Needle.

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Originally Posted by klaus

jussayin: Pyroblast is likely to replace SCM. You heard it here first :cool:

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Fixed.

Let's give fights over Ponder a rest for a bit, shall we?

Hey everyone, I am relatively adequate with miracles (meaning i think im average), and I am wondering how much We, as Miracles players should care about Treasure Cruise. I plan on going to GP New Jersey in 4 weeks and I would like other miracles players opinions on treasure cruise and Dig Through Time. My take on these cards is that they dont matter when I have the Counterbalance lock because those cards search for cards that are within range of Counterbalance's usefulness. This may have been answered already, so I apologize for any redundancies.

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Originally Posted by grabacr

Hey everyone, I am relatively adequate with miracles (meaning i think im average), and I am wondering how much We, as Miracles players should care about Treasure Cruise. I plan on going to GP New Jersey in 4 weeks and I would like other miracles players opinions on treasure cruise and Dig Through Time. My take on these cards is that they dont matter when I have the Counterbalance lock because those cards search for cards that are within range of Counterbalance's usefulness. This may have been answered already, so I apologize for any redundancies.

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Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

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Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

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Originally Posted by grabacr

Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

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There are generally two approaches you can take in boarding against BUG Decks. You either try to overload their Abrupt Decays by siding in more good targets (usually V Clique and Rest in Peace) while also keeping your counterbalances or you side out all your counterbalances and abstain from siding in anything that would be a good target for Decay. Obviously, both approaches have their pros and cons. Which path you decide to take should be tailored by your own testing, experience, and how your opponent his sideboarding. As Gerry T says don't ever make your sideboarding completely absolute. However, I will say that the Miracle players I have talked to about this favor the no good decay targets plan most of the time. They side in blast effects and more removal.

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Originally Posted by grabacr

Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

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Vs Delvee it's all removal for me, including both copies of Council's Judgement, and possibly even the Wear/Tear, depending on how much I feel they're boading for me. Against non-Delver, you need a really good mix. Draw 3's can be devastating from the bigger versions that have more 3's and 4's, Grips, and a full set of Decays. You lose out really quickly. I'm a fan of switching up your board between G2 and 3, depending on how many Decays you're expecting to see out of them. Boarding in a load of good targets in G2, then boarding them all (apart from Moon) out for G3 has been the sole factor for my wins before now. They had a less in G2, then in G3 I had 2 Blood Moon and they had 4 Decays. You should be keeping in only a small amount of countermagic overall, but enough that you can interact with their card advantage engines. Tax Spells are a no, Spell Snares should be ramped up if you have them. You need to beat Jace, mainly. Everything else should die to you ~8-9 removal Spells.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

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In this line of thinking (relying on the Counterbalance lock) I wonder if that makes it being a 4-of more of a necessity in the future.

I think my strategy vs. the BUG delver decks would be to simply overload on targets, bringing in Blood Moon, RIP, and a few other choice cards from the sideboard to make their Abrupt Decays have as many targets as possible. Presenting such a large range of threats that they likely only have 4 removal spells for (if any, depending on how they board) forces them to make a lot of decisions, and gives them more chances to use a decay on the wrong target.

As for Dig, I'm currently running it as a one-of in place of one of the Snapcasters in the Chi Hoi Yim build, but I may just swap this for the 4th Counterbalance, as that seems to be the way to answer TC, and answering cards is what we want to be doing as a control deck.

I tested both Dig and Cruise and found myself liking Cruse more. From my post on this in the Patriot thread:

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On Cruise.
I have tested out the RU deck that runs it and I have seen it in action. I feel like it doesn't fit in this deck. I feel like we are looking to play less of a tempo role against many of the decks that run this card and push more the control side. For this I have found Dig to fit in very very well. The instant speed is a plus, but it's strength is the chance to look for answers. I subscribe to the idea that you do not Brainstorm unless you have to, unless you know what your looking for. I find Dig offers that same deal. You do not cast it unless you know what you want. Hold it like a Brainstorm otherwise and treat it like it's made of gold. Cruse sucks, Dig, not in the slightest bit here.

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This is my view on Dig. Cruise is ponder to Dig's Brainstorm. You use Dig when you are either seeking answers or combo cards. In a control build, weight of cards does not hold a candle to selection of cards. You draw one less card and pay one more mana for Instant speed and increased options. That to me screams "Control toy" right there. After all we often have more mana on tap and we do often seek answers. Be that a Force, a Counterbalance or if the situation calls, a Swords. The card also lets you seek out Brainstorm and Miracle if you are lucky. Add on the fact that it does not say "Draw" and you can clear off 7 and top again and still have the option of hitting Terminus. In effect a shuffle. I like Dig, I like it a lot.

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it. Because while Ponder into more draw is just shit to do, Ponder into "Find target answer" is dam swell and filling the grave is handy too.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it.

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I suppose now the question becomes what is the optimal number of Digs, and what are the cuts? Though I'm sure that'll require some testing to figure out.

3 and 1 feels like a good split (ponder / dig), as we want to draw more ponders than dig, and earlier, and 3 ponders / 4 tops / 4 storms makes it feel like we can get where we need without necessarily flooding on cheap cantrips. I've definitely had games with the deck where all I saw were more ponders and brainstorms. They're great at finding answers, but they're horrible at answering things on their own.

Permanents: 13
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms

Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels

Lands: 21
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique

EDIT: So I deleted my post when pasting my list in. Go me.

Basically; I built the deck from the ground up again. I wanted to cut the Creatures and I LOVE Dig Through Time. (Could someone mockup a "Dog Through Time", or even "Doge Through Time"?) The main points of interest are:

4 Jaces: We are the best deck in the format, so we better start acting like it. Jace is the best card in the mirror, so we should play as many as possible.
1 Keranos: I love Keranos. Apart from my horrible misplay against DnT recently, it has basically won me ever game. With Top in play it is just so obnoxious.
4 Ponder: Partly to help with Dig Through Time, partly because it's the sixth best card in Legacy.
1 REB: Delve cards are broken so we should counter them efficiently. It also counters every relevant card in the mirror, and helps keep combo decks low on resources early so we can find our combo.
1 Dig Through Time: I want a second, I really do, but it's this or Keranos, and Keranos is too good at killing people. DTT Has been great when I've cast it, but I'm not sure how easy a second would be to support. Time will tell.
0 Snapcasters/Cliques: All of your threats are bombs. There is no tempoing people out, there are no easy games. Every game is either a grind to get Jace to connect, or we find an Entreat.

That's how I built it. Any questions let me know. Any advice definitely let me know. I need to work out how to beat DnT.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I need to work out how to beat DnT.

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See, now this is why I really like snapcaster. Not only can you sometimes trade with their dudes, but you get to rebuy your swords and other spot removal. A smart D&T player will only deploy a threat or two at a time, so Terminus is not going to be able to do nearly as much work. Having more cheap mass damage effects can definitely get you there, but I think the real winner in this matchup is entreat the angels. You just need to get to a point in the game where you can not get hosed by a couple flickerwisps.

Keranos can be good, but it feels REAALLYYY hard to get him on the board when you're battling against wasteland and rishadan port.

That being said, I really like your list.

The match still didn't feel good with Snaps. I admit I've hardly made it easier on myself. I'm also a fan of pulling in Blood Moon. You fetch Basics for a fee turns, then when you get the opportunity you turn them into White Weanie Vs a bunch of completely broken Spells like Jace and Terminus.

This build is excellent against BUG Delver, so long as you don't get overexcited and walk into double Daze, topdeck Waste so that you can't cast Keranos. (Bitterness prevails.)

I don't think Keranos is good enough anymore, at least on Magic Online. You want him against Shardless BUG, Jund and to some extent against BUG Tempo. Although i have zero testing experience i would replace him with Dig through time, which is less clunky and has a similar purpose. Before Treasure Cruise Keranos was a good option in the Maindeck, because Red Delver decks had almost 0 card advantage and having a superdead card against them didn't hurt a lot.

Is Infect offline a thing, did you guys notice an increase in your local tournaments? I mean it's the 2nd best deck on Magic Online and therefore decreased the numbers of Elves and Shardless BUG players. In addition to that it's favored against Miracles. Maybe offline there are too many SFM shells running around.

@Blood Moon
Card is amazing and not playing it in your 75 is just wrong. 2 are even more correct than 0 in my eyes. But i wouldn't board it against Death and Taxes. It doesn't effect the board, you sometimes can't fetch for all your basics and it turns off your shuffle effects. I mean it's okay to bring in if you really don't have anything better, but it's still not good against them.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

But i wouldn't board it against Death and Taxes. It doesn't effect the board, you sometimes can't fetch for all your basics and it turns off your shuffle effects. I mean it's okay to bring in if you really don't have anything better, but it's still not good against them.

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Agreed mostly, but depends on the list of D&T. If 70% of their lands are non-basics then that is good enough to bring in if nothing else is in the side. Granted they have Vials and can still Flagstone in their plains if playing Flagstones.

Keranos is still super-good against fair decks that don't run red. Even against fair decks that do run red like Jund, as long as you are able to Float it, it's extra win-condition, you can still wait for a good opportunity to bait out that Blast, and then drop this indestructible win-con. I would keep a Top, a land, and a Keranos on board even if Cataclysm resolves.

That 4 Jace, Keranos, and 2 EtA list is asking for a vicious beating early game. You got nothing going on early game, these 7 cards are pretty useless until you have at least 4~6 lands in play. Why would you want to have this many clunky cards early game? Actually none of these 7 cards would stop any competitive Legacy combos. At least Snapcaster allows you to flashback a counter, Clique can go after opponent's combo pieces.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I tested both Dig and Cruise and found myself liking Cruse more. From my post on this in the Patriot thread:

-snip-

This is my view on Dig. Cruise is ponder to Dig's Brainstorm. You use Dig when you are either seeking answers or combo cards. In a control build, weight of cards does not hold a candle to selection of cards. You draw one less card and pay one more mana for Instant speed and increased options. That to me screams "Control toy" right there. After all we often have more mana on tap and we do often seek answers. Be that a Force, a Counterbalance or if the situation calls, a Swords. The card also lets you seek out Brainstorm and Miracle if you are lucky. Add on the fact that it does not say "Draw" and you can clear off 7 and top again and still have the option of hitting Terminus. In effect a shuffle. I like Dig, I like it a lot.

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it. Because while Ponder into more draw is just shit to do, Ponder into "Find target answer" is dam swell and filling the grave is handy too.

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Honestly, between Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, SDT and plenty of Fetches, do you REALLY need more card selection? Do you REALLY need more cardadvantage between CounterTop, Jace and Terminus? The answer to both questions, the fact that it's another uncastable card in your starting grip, the obvious Problem of being a permanent based deck instead of binnind plenty of cards, leaves DTT as a non-intuitive inclusion. It even interferes with SB Rest in Peace.

DTT is good in S&T decks, TC is tailor-made for all the Delver-decks. Miracles should leave those cards behind imo

Hey YamiJoey, nice list - I've headed in a very similar direction. Here are my two Pence:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Basically; I built the deck from the ground up again. I wanted to cut the Creatures and I LOVE Dig Through Time. (Could someone mockup a "Dog Through Time", or even "Doge Through Time"?) The main points of interest are:

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ask BigUP, he'd be game, I'm sure ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

4 Jaces: We are the best deck in the format, so we better start acting like it. Jace is the best card in the mirror, so we should play as many as possible.

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I'm also a fan 4 Jaces, though depending on the meta, I deploy one on the SB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

1 Dig Through Time: I want a second, I really do, but it's this or Keranos, and Keranos is too good at killing people. DTT Has been great when I've cast it, but I'm not sure how easy a second would be to support. Time will tell.

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3 / 2 is the perfect split imo. The second DTT would beg for the 10th fetchland though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

0 Snapcasters/Cliques: All of your threats are bombs. There is no tempoing people out, there are no easy games. Every game is either a grind to get Jace to connect, or we find an Entreat.

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+1 on this.

For reference, here my current list:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell (my definition of a versatile MD card, never considered to put it in a SB)
1 Council's Judgement
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict (better CMC for CB, more inevitability, less dependence on Top)
2 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels

2 Plains
4 Island
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
(22)

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast (might come in handy over REB to boost DTT)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
3 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Honestly, between Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, SDT and plenty of Fetches, do you REALLY need more card selection? Do you REALLY need more cardadvantage between CounterTop, Jace and Terminus? The answer to both questions, the fact that it's another uncastable card in your starting grip, the obvious Problem of being a permanent based deck instead of binnind plenty of cards, leaves DTT as a non-intuitive inclusion. It even interferes with SB Rest in Peace.

DTT is good in S&T decks, TC is tailor-made for all the Delver-decks. Miracles should leave those cards behind imo

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To be honest I have not tested yet, but dependent on the build of, I can see them going into this deck. While having "4 Brainstorms, 4 Miracles, 4 Tops, 3 Counterbalance and 3 Jace" can more or less define the core, there is much that can be done with the rest of the deck. I think some builds will fine uses for this new card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

To be honest I have not tested yet, but dependent on the build of, I can see them going into this deck. While having "4 Brainstorms, 4 Miracles, 4 Tops, 3 Counterbalance and 3 Jace" can more or less define the core, there is much that can be done with the rest of the deck. I think some builds will fine uses for this new card.

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Without the intent to discuss builds, the conceptional question is, while being a dead card in your early turns and opener (like Miracles), is DTT really better than the decks usual lategame-bombs like EtA/Jace/etc. once you are able to cast it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Without the intent to discuss builds, the conceptional question is, while being a dead card in your early turns and opener (like Miracles), is DTT really better than the decks usual lategame-bombs like EtA/Jace/etc. once you are able to cast it?

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That still needs to be tested. DTT does serve a different role than EtA and it's instant speed which gives it different applications - it's better against Combo for instance.

What do you people think about the U/R Matchup (this list:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109238). I played against it yesterday and he had pretty good hands, so I got smashed. What are your experiences?