[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/203268

Preliminary draft of a pseudo-walker list I'm contemplating on building. Elspeth 1.0 is there as the main win-con, making dudes, making them jump, and if possible further breaking the symmetry with Deed with her bomb. Barring that, going with a classic Two Towers engine and both Swagtusk and Sacred Rhino to help with the long game stabilization.

A few things Im worried about though:

1. Lots of self-inflicted pain. Without 4 GSZ, I can't rely on tutoring Rhino or Tusk when I need to, which may be a lot here.

2. Dedicating too much room to advantage and selection or removal and sweepers ... and not enough for utility creatures. I like the creature package as is right now ... just unsure on this.

3. Removal/sweeper suite in general.

Any thoughts?

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The Two Towers are too susceptible to Wasteland to be reliable. Hence I wouldn't use Primeval Titan to tutor them - it's more efficient to just GSZ for Sigarda. In that regard - I'd cut a land, Eternal Witness no. 2 and Primeval Titan for 2 GSZ & Sigarda. Maybe also cut an Anguished Unmaking for a SDT. Consistency is a desirable thing.

Oh, and -1 Painful Truths, + another Top. Truths is powerful but slow and costly.

I'll post my current list tomorrow. It takes a somewhat different approach, maybe that's worth taking a look at (also, maybe not. I tend to run some unusual cards and make some unusual choices).

So...

- the list has 2 Witness to bring back Stronghold if it gets wasted. And after that Stronghold to bring back Witness. So it is not vulnerable to Wasteland unless they have recursion.
- why Tribe Elder over another copy of GSZ? GSZ is literally always better.
- I know I am talking to a brick wall with this. But why Path over Swords? Wrong deck for this choice.
- Playing 1 Tireless Tracker over a Painful Truths would be good to strengthen GSZ.
- Not playing Sigarda is a criminal act.

Junk Planeswalkers huh, well time to dust of the Academy Rector/Doubling Season festival.
Always fun to play, can seriously wreck opponent's. Mainly due to Humility. But on the other hand, there is just so much value in here it is ridiculous. The only real issue with this deck is that cards need cards and nothing really works on its own (barring Sigarda). Current main is pretty streamlined, board is always dynamical. But all-in-all there is still a lot of design space and synergy's not currently present. For example: Spike Weaver/Feeder/Archangel of Thune, which all double up under a Doubling Season. Also optional is the Contamination/Starfield thing, but i find that a bit clunky and requires more dedication. To the very least, i hope the list below will inspire some more deck building.

Main 61 cards
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan library
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Humility
1 Doubling Season
2 Lingering Souls
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
7 Basics
7 Fetch
5 Duals

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Worship
1 Nether Void
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Curse of Death’s Hold

Main: stall board with Veteran/Therapy/Removal/Lingering Souls/whatnot.. until you can sneak in a Humility or Doubling Season depending on the MU/Game state. (sidenote: Humility + Curse of Death's Hold for a creature heavy meta or Doubling Season + Collective Blessing or Primeval Bounty in a more control heavy meta).
Lingering Souls / Combat Walkers steal the game under either Humility or Doubling Season.
The creature package all have their added value under a Doubling Season, but function on their own:
Tireless Tracker doubles its work under a Doubling Season!
Gaddock Teeg is there to stop/delay combo such as Elves/ANT/Sneak (more of less) so you can setup Rector.
Sigarda, well is just a hot smoking chick.
Sylvan Library is there to free up mana, where SDT often needs some extra and this deck is pretty mana hungry in it's early game. Also being able to draw a few extra cards to setup a faster Rector can be needed to prevent losing.

Side: Zealous Persecution is just magnificent when you have a Humility out. The leylines are there for random opening hands. Worship is mainly for burn(ish)/fast decks. Needs testing tho. I suppose Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles could be replaced with Eidolon of the Rhetoric and Spirit of the Labyrinth.

Edit: come to think of it, replacing Rector 5 card package for SFM package puts in into a nice direction aswell.

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Originally Posted by Tao

So...

- the list has 2 Witness to bring back Stronghold if it gets wasted. And after that Stronghold to bring back Witness. So it is not vulnerable to Wasteland unless they have recursion.
- why Tribe Elder over another copy of GSZ? GSZ is literally always better.
- I know I am talking to a brick wall with this. But why Path over Swords? Wrong deck for this choice.
- Playing 1 Tireless Tracker over a Painful Truths would be good to strengthen GSZ.
- Not playing Sigarda is a criminal act.

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Hmm ... for Path over Swords, back when I was playing some combination of Swords and Decays, I always found it difficult to close out the game after usings Swords. Then again that may have just been myself playing too cautiously: the ranp can be much more potent than a few measly life.

The rest I'll look into and maybe proxy test.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

@Ulysse95

Looks very interesting, but I do think your mana base and win cons are a bit on the unstable side. The removal and general Starfield + Deed plan looks awesome, but the R splash makes the deck look real wobbly. Particularly since you want to cast Lilianas with no DRS and 11 black sources.

Is it reasonable to drop the R? I get that Assemble the Legion and Blood Moon are powerful cards, but it might be worth it to move things to a Taiga + Blood Moon in the side and just have a much more stable mana base game one. For wincons, planeswalkers work, as does Sigarda, or if you want an enchantment option there's always Heliod/Nylea both of which are likely to win any Humility-based standoff. It's a real pity that Karametra, Athreos and Pharika are all so underwhelming. Vinecrasher is a wincon, but you already have a list with a lot of recursion in, so I don't know if you need more resilient threats. Might be worth playing more multidimensional creatures instead, or stuff that doesn't have serious trouble with RIP.

The deck also looks like it could do well with a Recurring Nightmare shell in there, although that might be a bit too deep on the graveyard plan. One of the advantages of running the Enchantment build is that DRS can't exile noncreature enchantments, which makes you significantly more resistant to hate than people might expect. Running a Nightmare loop might remove that advantage.

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Thanks, for the note. I will try a bit with no red to see if I miss it or not. But until now I had no really B problem since I run 3 Phyrexian tower too (so it get to 14 B source with 3 of them giving 2B).

Also I will try Nylea over Vinecrasher to see.

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Originally Posted by Brael

You've put much more work into this idea than me but I was thinking of something similar yesterday. Contamination and Bitterblossom are enchantments so I was starting to wonder if there's something to it. I was actually looking through a few of the constellation options. Eidolon of Blossoms could be cool as could Underworld Coinsmith and Brain Maggot but I dropped the idea after thinking it's just a bad version of Enchantress. Your idea with Starfield is intriguing though. I don't agree with 4 color but there could be a solid engine in here.

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I don't think contamination would run in a 3 color deck. And I'm not fond of Bitterblossom while running deed...

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Originally Posted by Navsi

For the Enchantment build - Animate Dead seems like a good fit for the deck, since it lets us do dumb things with Contamination + Starfield, and generally goes well with both.

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Animate dead can give a rebound against control to get back a previously managed creature like rector.
It's quite insane with eternal witness.
I tried it but left it on the road for now because it can often stick in hand, needs target (while running less creatures) and fears deathrite shaman.

Perhaps I will give it an extra try while playing Lili again.

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Originally Posted by emuhell

@Arianrhod: guess it doesnt matter, but you miss the commander 2014 planeswalkers in your list. Maybe someone wants to yield 5/5 demons or something.

Other than that - big thank you for the in-depth analysis of the current state of Nic Fit. I'm tinkering with an updated version of the scapeshift list - cutting whishes, and the wacky PFire engine (mainly because of consistency).

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Actually I used to play Freyalise, Llanowar's fury on a humility base and liked it.
+2 to get a llanowar elve is great and the -2 manage some of the worst card: equipment and needle.

Nahiri the lithomancer can be an option in a SFM version.

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

Thanks, for the note. I will try a bit with no red to see if I miss it or not. But until now I had no really B problem since I run 3 Phyrexian tower too (so it get to 14 B source with 3 of them giving 2B).

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The problem with Tower is that it can't make B on your first turn, making it harder to cast Cabal Therapy on turn 1.

Anyways - I said I'd post my own current build, so behold:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Path to Exile
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

A lot of beef, a bit less interaction. More beef means less trouble finding a body for Diabolic Intent, Diabolic Intents leads me to skip on SDT (risky as it may be). Skipping on SDT does leave me wanting for other sources of CA, hence Courser & Tracker. On a sidenote - when playing with Diabolic Intents, one needs to tread incredibly carefully. If it resolves, you're in a very good spot. Get it countered and you just fucked yourself. The Pridemage originally was a Sakura-Tribe Elder. Not running AD ment I wanted something targeted to deal with lockpieces game 1. Adding Pridemage means I have 5, thanks to GSZ. The list is a bit more aggressive than the standard list and a bit more high risk, high reward.

I'm going to start thinking of a way to bend this around to a Big Maverick type list. Incorporate some Thalias MB and whatnot. That's something that might actually help with the Storm MU.

I think I've made a breakthrough for BUG. Unlike Junk that color combination is looking for one shot effects which means a lack of top in favor of cantrips. Most notably though, changing away from Top changes the whole CA package. Rather than Bob you want Strix, rather than Courser you want Edric, rather than Tracker you probably want Shardless. Basically a bunch of ETB CA rather than sustained on board (aside from Edric).

Don't have a complete list yet, but here's what I'm thinking
22 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Others

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Baleful Strix
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Trygon Predator
1 Shardless Agent
2 The Gitrog Monster

Spells 17
4 Brainstorm
2 Far // Away
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Feels a little light to me on removal, only 8 removal and 4 discard is a bit low on interaction.

This list is kind of all over the place right now, so it needs some work. I think I want to go deeper on Shardless but that changes a few other card choices. Are there any creatures Shardless Agent is good at cheating out besides Strix?

The problem with Cascade in NicFit is that you have to many targets with higher cmc, and you can't GSZ into cascade and you can't GSZ from cascade (only X = 0). So i do not see any benefit from Shardless Agent.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

The problem with Cascade in NicFit is that you have to many targets with higher cmc, and you can't GSZ into cascade and you can't GSZ from cascade (only X = 0). So i do not see any benefit from Shardless Agent.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

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High cost targets don't really matter as long as you have some low cost ones to hit, it's not like the card suddenly misses when you pass over a 4 drop and hit a 2 drop. GSZ is certainly an issue, but Dryad Arbor is a hit for 0 there (my above list left out the Arbor, only had 19/22 lands listed) and Traverse can supplement so that doesn't happen as often, especially since Traverse is easy to turn on with Strix+Shardless being artifacts.

Or, maybe leaving out Arbor and just going with 4 Traverse would be better.

Glissa the traitor would be a good choice since she's strong with strix and shardless

Played in an SCG IQ today with the junk fit list in my signature. Ended up 11th out of 28, going 3-2. Tireless Tracker is a HOUSE.

Match 1: Burn, 2-1.
Game one he had a solid start and my vet let him double fireblast me ftw. Games 2 and 3 running Siege Rhinos got there.

Match 2: U/B Tezzerator, 2-1
Game one he turn 2 foundry, turn 3 sword and I got wrecked. Game two I brought in PoP and domed him for 10. Game three was similar.

Match 3: Burn, 1-2
Game one I had a Siege Rhino every turn, games two and three I couldn't get sulfuric vortex off the board and lost.

Match 4: Jeskai Delver, 1-2
Random deck check!!! opponent got a game loss for also having a modern deck in his deck box, which was then followed up my me not drawing p much any lands either game.

Match 5: Pox, 2-0
TIRELESS TRACKER is A BEAST.

Hey guys! Usually I play maverick but my local meta has a lot of fair creature decks with some storm and a little miracles thrown in among the other 1 off random deck you might play. My Maverick list was slowly getting more midrange and midrange so I figured why not play the "ultimate" midrange deck.

I was wondering if you fine folk could take a look at the list I cooked up and help me with the SB.

Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 dryad arbor
1 gaddock teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
2 tireless tracker
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda host of herons

Instant/Sorceries
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Enchantment
2 sylvan library
2 pernicious deed

planeswalkers
1 garruk relentless
1 gideon ally of zendikar
1 sorin lord of innistrad

lands
4 windswepth heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower

Sideboard
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 swords to plowshares
1 choke
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
2 tormods crypt
4 ???????

The sideboard I am not really sure what I am doing with and put in cards I thought would be good against combo like storm/elves among other things.

Any advice is appreciated.

Step 1: Switch StP for PtE. No need to give your opponent life when you can give them... Nothing. The bigger the thing you kill with it, the more noticable the difference is.

@Brael: Nice way of looking at it. I'm not sure you'd want Shardless over Tracker though. Tracker has a lot of potential. Anything from just replacing itself to drawing multiple cards, growing out of control and finishing the game. Tracker is a must-answer where Shardless is a "Meh" once it has hit the board.

You could also incorporate the Fierce Empath & Diabolic Intent tech. Drop Empath, get a Delve-creature, feed the Empath to Intent to get whatever it is you need (or bait a counter), drop the Delve creature (making the Intent pretty much free).

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

Hey guys! Usually I play maverick but my local meta has a lot of fair creature decks with some storm and a little miracles thrown in among the other 1 off random deck you might play. My Maverick list was slowly getting more midrange and midrange so I figured why not play the "ultimate" midrange deck.

I was wondering if you fine folk could take a look at the list I cooked up and help me with the SB.

Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 dryad arbor
1 gaddock teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
2 tireless tracker
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda host of herons

Instant/Sorceries
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Enchantment
2 sylvan library
2 pernicious deed

planeswalkers
1 garruk relentless
1 gideon ally of zendikar
1 sorin lord of innistrad

lands
4 windswepth heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower

Sideboard
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 swords to plowshares
1 choke
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
2 tormods crypt
4 ???????

The sideboard I am not really sure what I am doing with and put in cards I thought would be good against combo like storm/elves among other things.

Any advice is appreciated.

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- I personally like Swords over Path even in Rhino lists, but there are good reasons for both. Test and decide for yourself
- I think a second Phyrexian Tower is a good choice. The card seems not like much if you are new to the deck, but with Explorer and no Therapy it is a difference like night and day. Normal land adds one Mana, Tower adds 4 Mana this turn and 3 for the next turns.
- The rest of the MD seems fine to me.
- In the SB I like Spirit of the Labyrinth over Canonist, unless you have lots of Elves in the Meta. Against Combo what really kills you is their cantripping. Canonist prevents dying, but that is all he does. They can just cantrip until they have their solution. For the 4 "???" I think Thoughtseize are a standard good choice.

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Originally Posted by Tao

- I personally like Swords over Path even in Rhino lists, but there are good reasons for both. Test and decide for yourself
- I think a second Phyrexian Tower is a good choice. The card seems not like much if you are new to the deck, but with Explorer and no Therapy it is a difference like night and day. Normal land adds one Mana, Tower adds 4 Mana this turn and 3 for the next turns.
- The rest of the MD seems fine to me.
- In the SB I like Spirit of the Labyrinth over Canonist, unless you have lots of Elves in the Meta. Against Combo what really kills you is their cantripping. Canonist prevents dying, but that is all he does. They can just cantrip until they have their solution. For the 4 "???" I think Thoughtseize are a standard good choice.

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Vs. Elves! SotL stops both Glimpse of Nature and the BFF engine, so it isn't bad at all. Heck, as a former Elves! pilot I can say Canonist mostly is just a speedbump. After you have a couple of creatures on the board (4+), you're fine with just casting NO for the turn.

Yeah, you've got to love those T1 Explorer, T2 Tower openings.

Hi guys,

I see the thread is still very well alive. I am following from far away, but I saw some discussions about PW, Rhinos and things, and wanted to add my 2 cents.

I play something cryptic, and don't want to disturb the flow of ideas here. Quickly the core is:
4 SDT
4 Vet / 4 Therapies
1 DR Shaman / 2 GSZ (Used to be the opposite before Chalice of the Eldrazis)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Deed
3 Decays / 1 Go for the Throat of the Eldrazis
4 Lingering Souls
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

That's a great shell with 10 slots left to make it strong. On my side it's a Rector package.

I used to play 2 Garruk and 2 sexy Lili for a long time, but Monk_Elementals find her too sexy at the moment.
Sorin is the non WW-Elspeth, and his emblem comes to play very well with Lingering Souls
Nixilis: To me he is the black Jace, he is *the* monster. Ralf said don't underestimate Ultimate abilities. That's all the more true for him.
If you want PWs as finisher, you can add a Grim Nemesis there.

I never liked Rhinos too much, and agree with Arian when he says it is not the gameplan we want to.
Nic Fit is here to tank the game until we fold it up, whichever path we choose. There are Scapeshifts, Attrition-Pod, PWs, and Aggro with Rhinos now.
I just don't like the idea of spending the whole time to deny Delver's aggro and become the Aggro, the turn of table is weird to me.
In a way Lingering Souls offer a better compromise, and can eventually turn into a soft Aggro plan.

I'd love to see Tracker to be as insane as she is for Dominic Pain. Love your list bro, even though I personally would tweak a few slots for Souls and 1 more Top.
But I run too few GSZ to make her shine, especially since without Chalices around, I would play only 1 GSZ. Personal choice to not run green creatures-pack.
She should work well in Pod too.

One thing I find odd: I keep reading here that Miracle is the absolute nightmare.
In my opinion, it is more 60/40 for them. Which means it is playable, difficult on both sides on of the table.
I have been asking to Miracle players around me, and they don't especially like the MU. Independent of the version we run, there's always a bomb coming which they have to be careful of.
Don't give up guys, it's not "desperate", not like Storm/Combo. (that's just Karma I guess)

Kudos to Bobmans, for dusting off Doubling Season. I had tried, poorly I must say a few years ago. I feel that with Oath of Nissa it is worth thinking of it again.
I never spent too much time on it though.

In a meta with D&T, Miracles and Grixis would NicFit list you recommend?:eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by vilnico

I'd love to see Tracker to be as insane as she is for Dominic Pain. Love your list bro, even though I personally would tweak a few slots for Souls and 1 more Top.
But I run too few GSZ to make her shine, especially since without Chalices around, I would play only 1 GSZ. Personal choice to not run green creatures-pack.
She should work well in Pod too.

One thing I find odd: I keep reading here that Miracle is the absolute nightmare.
In my opinion, it is more 60/40 for them. Which means it is playable, difficult on both sides on of the table.
I have been asking to Miracle players around me, and they don't especially like the MU. Independent of the version we run, there's always a bomb coming which they have to be careful of.
Don't give up guys, it's not "desperate", not like Storm/Combo. (that's just Karma I guess)

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Miracles is considered a nightmare b/c people just hate, hate, hate the MU. It's always grindy and has the potential to come back from near-death.

One thing I wonder when people cut GSZs - aren't you hurting yourself horribly in terms of consistency? Less GSZ equals less starts with early Veteran Explorers, making it harder to pull in front of your opponent.

@JohnBell: Depends on the breakdown of the field. How much % Miracles, how much % Grixis etc.

@JohnBell: I would play NicFit, eyes closed in your metagame (but that's just me)

@Echelon: I never felt missing Zenith's even when I was playing only 1.
The thing is since I play a Rector package, I have little numbers of green creatures to value, like Thrun/Sigarda/Tusk/Name-it. And I kept cutting GSZ from 3 to 1.
More to the point, since I don't have the big-greens, I never liked drawing GSZ midgame. I looked at it more this way.
At some point it looks more reasonable indeed to play at least 2. I may have just been foolish earlier, even though I never had to pay for it (or had the feeling).
2/3 GSZ must be fine depending on the shell, 1/4 are a bit extreme I think.

On Miracles: well it lives by its name doesn't it ? but I think Nic Fit does the same, we often come back from the brink of death. So yes it's a MU where both can come back from nowhere, both, us included.
NicFit is a grindy deck by excellence, you have to know you will get to fight other grindy decks, which makes great games to play I think. And yes, grindy games are the most difficult.

You want to win Miracles ? play Miracles with Future Sight :p

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Miracles is considered a nightmare b/c people just hate, hate, hate the MU. It's always grindy and has the potential to come back from near-death.

One thing I wonder when people cut GSZs - aren't you hurting yourself horribly in terms of consistency? Less GSZ equals less starts with early Veteran Explorers, making it harder to pull in front of your opponent.

@JohnBell: Depends on the breakdown of the field. How much % Miracles, how much % Grixis etc.

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About 10% Miracles-D&T-Grixis...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnBell

About 10% Miracles-D&T-Grixis...

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I don't think Grixis is too bad of a matchup. Rhinos really do go the distance.

D and T is also okay, just use your removal carefully, and use Deeds when you can. Don't let them sit, and make sure to respond to Vial activations.

With both of those in mind, make sure you run 2-3 additional sweepers in the board. Golgari Charms or Deluges.

For Miracles, you'll need a walker plan, very likely. That's what we're trying, and it's definitely more successful than just trying to jam Rhinos into Terminus. Sylvan Library is also solid tech.
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As an aside, if we're splashing red to try and run Games and nug the fuck out of Eldrazi/Lands, I might just run Blood Moon. Ruination is sick, but 4 mana is a tad slow. Sure, there's more opportunity for interaction, but the speed is sometimes really necessary.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Brael: Nice way of looking at it. I'm not sure you'd want Shardless over Tracker though. Tracker has a lot of potential. Anything from just replacing itself to drawing multiple cards, growing out of control and finishing the game. Tracker is a must-answer where Shardless is a "Meh" once it has hit the board.

You could also incorporate the Fierce Empath & Diabolic Intent tech. Drop Empath, get a Delve-creature, feed the Empath to Intent to get whatever it is you need (or bait a counter), drop the Delve creature (making the Intent pretty much free).

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I think Shardless is the card for what I'm attempting. Shardless and Tracker both represent 3 CMC card advantage, the difference is that Shardless generates a card right away while Tracker generates it over time. Shardless gets me a 2/2 and a card for 3 mana while Tracker gets me a 4/3 and a card for 5 mana. If I'm looking for a mana sink Tracker is good, but philosophically what I'm looking for here is instant CA. Basically, I want a deck of Mulldrifters rather than Baneslayers, the opposite of what my SE Fit build has.

Empath I think I'll stay away from because I want Traverse which means I need a GY.

This whole idea might not work, it may be too heavy on 3's (a problem the archetype has in general). Something else I had considered though was red instead of blue. I have my G/B CA package I really like, it's just missing a 4 drop. A few posts ago I had wondered about Mina and Den, still thinking about them but I'm also considering Bloodbraid Elf. Cascade is an issue with GSZ though and cascading Bloodbraid into Intent isn't particularly thrilling either.

Still going to be pretty busy tomorrow at least, but then things should start clearing up in advance of Mythic this weekend. Here's where I'm going to be looking:

::GBW Control [Columbus prototype 1]::

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Path to Exile

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

sb::
2 Tsunami
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Engineered Plague
1 Celestial Purge

::GBWr Control [Columbus prototype 2]::

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths

4 Path to Exile

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

sb::
2 Price of Progress
2 Slaughter Games
1 Hall of Gemstone
2 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm

::GB<> Control [Columbus prototype 3]::

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Toxic Deluge

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Pernicious Deed

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Glimmerpost
2 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karakas

sb::
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Krosan Grip
2 Warping Wail
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 All is Dust

::GBW Valuetown Control [Columbus prototype 4]::

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Painful Truths

4 Path to Exile

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
2 Tsunami
1 Celestial Purge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite

These are my main, base-line prototypes for Columbus. They're a little rough around the edges, for sure -- as noted, I didn't have as much time as I wanted this weekend to work on them, but I wanted to present something tonight while I had the opportunity to get a post in.

Here's a couple observations about the specific lists and some of the card choices therein:

Prototype 1:
-) This is most of the maindeck spells that I'm interested in running at the moment, and it made room for the three planeswalkers I would like to maindeck. The creatures are lean and tough, and are basically a Rogues' Gallery of the best we have to offer at the moment, other than the obvious exclusion of Siege Rhino, which, as noted previously, I think pushes us into a role we're not really suited to exist in. Every creature in that list either generates a large advantage or effectively ends the game. Knight of the Reliquary as a 1-of (with 1-of Wasteland as a target) is something that makes an awful lot of sense with the direction Gitrog has pushed the deck, and it helps Meren out against Karakas. Regardless of our problems with Meren, which are admittedly many, she checks off every single box from the list of what we're looking for out of our Zenith targets at the moment. Warping the deck around her more might be more correct than cutting her.

-) Sideboard is rough but hits most of the salient points: an extra planeswalker which provides card draw in grindy matchups, a Celestial Purge (which might be better as a 2-of, even), the standard Thoughtseize/Canonist/Surgical package which comprises our best hate options for combo, and a variety of backup sweepers. Gaze of Granite is something that I think is an interesting 1-of out of the board. It's a Deed that wipes out planeswalkers, Needles on our Deeds, and a bunch of other problems. It's common for us to play+crack Deed@2, and really it's only when we go higher than 3 that Gaze of Granite becomes unreasonable.

Prototype 2:
-) Much less refined than PT1. Somewhere halfway through the decklist I fell asleep and didn't realize I didn't leave room for the planeswalkers. The big draw here is the red sideboard. Blood Moon, PoP, and Slaughter Games all help fix the "meta" matchups, with the usual anti-combo package rounding out the list. One Golgari Charm is the only backup sweeper that I could fit in, due to the space absorbed by the red cards. Hall of Gemstone is an interesting consideration that is essentially an on-color Blood Moon, except it shuts down our multicolored cards, which is awkward -- but it does let us continue playing magic under it, which is nice. It's also a World Enchantment, which makes multiple copies less useful.

Prototype 3:
-) Endbringer is big game. Endbringer is a very clean answer to Merit Lage, while also being generically good against a wide range of other decks once active. I like being able to run this card.

-) Losing Path to Exile sucks, but 2 Deluge+2 Deed+Ugin+4 Stirrings+Ulamog yields 10 sweepers/removal spells (admittedly some of them are very expensive). The fragility of this removal package is something that concerns me, but the proactivity of the deck is something that attracts me equally.

-) Sideboard is about as well rounded as I've been able to get for GB<>. Platinum Angel shores up a lot of awkward problems, and is tutorable in an ungodly number of ways. 4 Stirrings + Eye of Ugin + Empath + Zenith for both Empath/Eye (via Primeval). Wurmcoil is a backbreaker for Shardless. The All is Dust is experimental. I'm not sure that getting that kind of mana quickly enough is reasonable, but it bears research. If it's not All is Dust, it's probably gaze of Granite.

Prototype 4:
-) People are skimping on their graveyard hate, bigtime. Might be time for Sun Titan nonsense to come back. This was an attempt at seeing what that would look like. Unfortunately, I had to lose a couple of spells in order to keep the creature count high while also fitting in the two most important (imo) planeswalkers.

-) Sideboard is very similar to that of Prototype 1, which reflects my opinion of sideboard cards in those colors at the moment.

So, yeah. Tuning needed, obviously. But as a word-vomit / thought-vomit / concept sketch, these are the styles of deck that I'm looking for at Columbus. I really liked the Consecrated Monster list that I was working on, and I really liked the Ultimate Fit list that I took to Charlotte. But at the end of the day, they're too reliant on match pairings and what the opponent is playing. I want something that's a bit better against the field and less narrowly focused on beating the grindy blue decks, which basically means that GBW is home, sweet home. I still maintain hope and belief that the GB<> builds are capable of fielding a very powerful contender, though.

That Master of the Wild Hunt is some spicy tech. I wonder if it isn't too slow and fragile though.

On another note - I'm probably attending a monthly at the LGS for the first time in months this saturday and I just can't decide if I want to take Nic Fit or Manaless Dredge for a spin. Both have new toys that I want take for a fieldrun and shine in various MUs. With Nic Fit I know I have some sort of chance against most of the field, with Manaless I know I'm dead in certain MUs (or vs. certain cards) but have a wonderful time vs. most of the DtB section and have the potential for some quick games (combo finish FTW).

Master of the Wild Hunt. Wondering how well it would roll in a PFire build with 2 Huntmaster, 1 Garruk R and 1 Arlinn Kord! MD.

That aside. The Devoid build speaks to me the most. With it's huge endgame and midrange bombs. The Gitrog Monster seems a bit out of place, consuming from it owns mana hungry friends. On top of that, the low amount of removal seems out of place. Endbringer can certainly answer Marit Lage but is kinda slow.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Endbringer can certainly answer Marit Lage but is kinda slow.

---

There are a number of rather small white creatures that can do the same. Maybe that can be a thing?

Edit: No, b/c Punishing Fires is a thing. Too bad, otherwise we finally would have had a use for Preacher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

There are a number of rather small white creatures that can do the same. Maybe that can be a thing?

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And green, such as Thornscape Apprentice.

Edit: what about Willow satyr?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sergi

And green, such as Thornscape Apprentice.

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And black. But all the cheap ones have toughness < 3, unfortunately. Still, Thornscape is pretty spicy, being GSZ'able and all. Maybe for the Big Maverick build. Just add in Sylvan Safekeeper & Mother of Runes to keep it safe. The Gitrog Monster as finisher. I'm digging it.

Awoken from Slumber since 2013...

Came back to Magic once I saw Eldrazis got printed. :tongue:

I played a list similar to Arianhod's GB<>, List below


GB<> Nic Fit

[20] Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 World Breaker

[8] Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge

[5] Enchantments
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Pernicious Deed

[2] Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

[2] Planeswalker
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Karn Liberated

[23] Lands
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Karakas

Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Karn Liberated



A little report

R1 - Opps All Spells - Lose 0-2
Nothing to say here, dead flat gg

R2 - Miracles - Win 1-0
Almost went into turns, he conceded once I exiled his last U source. MVP here is World Breaker loops with Drownyard Temple to close the game via Land Exile and Karn Liberated feasting on his JTMS. Thought-Knot pulled a lot of weight in the early stages of the game. Just kept exiling his win conditions aka JTMS and Clique and he was left with not much action but removals and lands in his deck.

R3 - 12 Sol Eldrazi - Win 2-1
Game 1 I got totally wrecked here with Eye into Endless One, Eldrazi Mimic & Eldrazi Mimic into Thought-Knot taking my Pernicious Deed. Nothing much to do against the nuts. Took out Karn, Gitrog, Worldbreaker, Fierce Empath and Drownyard Temple. Added 1 Disfigure, Dismember, Toxic Deluge, Reclamation Sage and Tragtusk.

Games 2 and 3 were won by the tiniest of life left with Tarmogoyf holding the fort extremely well. Saved the GSZ for Sage for their Jitte, and try to move into Prime Time / Swagtusk stage to buy time and quickly turn the corner against him.

R4 - Elves - Win 2-0
This was the game where the power of 4x Thought-Knot showed. T1 Deathrite into T2 Thought-Knot is the sex. With Oath of Nissa finding the Garruk Relentless to beat the tiny elves senseless in Game 1, game easily taken. Game 2 he got massacred the turn before he went off (Thought-Knot buying a truck load of time) with Massacre Wurm :cool:

R5 - Shardless BUG - ID

Quarter Finals - Shardless BUG (not the R5 dude) - Won 2-1
Took Game 1 after I was able to out value him, turns out he drew 3 Ancestral Visions and no Brainstorms or JTMS. Game 2 got valued out with Visions and Hymn and 3 active Deathrites. Game 3 was able to Toxic Deluge his over extended board after Cabal Therapying his Counterspell. Random critter beats took it down.
SB was - 1 Fierce Empath -1 World Breaker +2 Surgical Extraction

Semi Finals - RUG Delver - Lost 0-2
Delver, Daze my Explorer, Waste my Bayou, flip Delver and drop Mongoose and force my Deed = gg game 1
Did not see any of the Disfigures or Deeds in game 2 = sad and dead nic fit
SB -1 World Breaker -1 Fierce Empath -1 Gitrog -1 Karn Liberated -1 Garruk Relentless +2 Disfigure +1 Dismember +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Thragtusk



Thoughts:
Got no idea how to beat the T 0 decks aka Belcher and Opps All Spells, guess it is a concession in playing Nic Fit. Has game vs a wide range of decks but felt poorly against Delver decks with mana denial.

MVPs
Tireless Tracker - This dude makes our lack of draws not so punishing. Makes full use of our mana every turn and makes top decking a land less painful.
Thought-Knot Seer - This guy does it all. LIKE ALL! A T2 TKS is punishing no matter the opponent (well if our combo opponent is slower). Stripping key win-cons in threat light decks like Miracles is great.
Tarmogoyf - Holds the fort like a champ. Note that I also played Oath of Nissa which allows a very fat Goyf. The decision accelerated my death in the semis vs RUG delver thou.

Poor Performers
Fierce Empath - Everytime I drew this guy, I wish he was a Tireless Tracker or Goyf. The tutor is lackluster with Eye of Ugin tutoring Colourless threats for slower matchups and GSZ for the G threats.
Sakura Tribe-Elder - Always rots in my hand, even with mana to spare to cast him I rather use the mana to crack that Clue off Tracker. I think I will still keep him for the shenanigans vs Bridge from Below and Jitte.
The Gitrog Monster - I actually let him die without netting any cards as I was pushing for World Breaker mana in the Miracles matchup. Could be swapped into either Goyf or Tireles Tracker I suppose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Master of the Wild Hunt. Wondering how well it would roll in a PFire build with 2 Huntmaster, 1 Garruk R and 1 Arlinn Kord! MD.

That aside. The Devoid build speaks to me the most. With it's huge endgame and midrange bombs. The Gitrog Monster seems a bit out of place, consuming from it owns mana hungry friends. On top of that, the low amount of removal seems out of place. Endbringer can certainly answer Marit Lage but is kinda slow.

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In my games, Gitrog Monster was terrible, felt like a 5 mana do nothing which need to be sac'ed off the next turn. Perhaps Titania would be much better

It seems a number of cards are performing poorly at the moment while Tracker is doing exceedingly well. Wouldn't it be an idea to run 3/4 Trackers in favor of the Meren/Gitrog Monster/random flex slots?

I could even see it maybe replacing Painful Truths. One of the things the SE Fit build taught us is that it's nice to have cards that fill multiple roles and one of the suggestions I've seen people make recently is to run more meat to overload the opponents removal. Seems like a win-win situation. It's a pretty aggressive, GSZ'able body that's either a lightning rod for removal or takes over the game if left unchecked.

About GSZ, I would always play 4. Maybe people are expecting too much of it, like it can magically turn around lost games. Sure, if it is one of those games in which you get overrun by Eldrazis or the opponent has Griselbrand in play or had Jace active for 2 turns GSZ won't be able to win you the game. But if you neutrally judge the strength of the card I have no doubt that GSZ is still one of the best cards in the deck:

- Explorer is still the key card to our deck and GSZ simply doubles the number of Explorers we can play so that is pretty amazing in itself.
- with Tracker it is great card draw when you are flooded
- with Witness and Path in the yard it is a better Shriekmaw
- it allows to play only one Sigarda and still consistently have it
- it lets you play 5 copies of two of our best hate cards in Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze and only commit 1/75 slots for each

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

About GSZ, I would always play 4. Maybe people are expecting too much of it, like it can magically turn around lost games. Sure, if it is one of those games in which you get overrun by Eldrazis or the opponent has Griselbrand in play or had Jace active for 2 turns GSZ won't be able to win you the game. But if you neutrally judge the strength of the card I have no doubt that GSZ is still one of the best cards in the deck:

- Explorer is still the key card to our deck and GSZ simply doubles the number of Explorers we can play so that is pretty amazing in itself.
- with Tracker it is great card draw when you are flooded
- with Witness and Path in the yard it is a better Shriekmaw
- it allows to play only one Sigarda and still consistently have it
- it lets you play 5 copies of two of our best hate cards in Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze and only commit 1/75 slots for each

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Seconded! Build your toolbox properly and GSZ seldom is a bad card to have.

By the way - I'm honestly considering Thornscape Apprentice as GSZ'able answer to Merit Lage, Sneak & Show, reanimate and Eldrazi. It's pretty fast and can manage some of our biggest problems (which also tend to come from decks that are light on creature removal) at the cost of 1 mana/turn.

Reading zoo forum, there is someone that is using couple of tireless trackers toghether with chandra's parents (dealing 2 damage for every clue) and I found quite interesting in jund builds, as finisher.

Just add in Punishing Fire and grind people out, I suppose? Slow but fun. Probably causes a bit of snowballing (which is never bad).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

It seems a number of cards are performing poorly at the moment while Tracker is doing exceedingly well. Wouldn't it be an idea to run 3/4 Trackers in favor of the Meren/Gitrog Monster/random flex slots?

I could even see it maybe replacing Painful Truths. One of the things the SE Fit build taught us is that it's nice to have cards that fill multiple roles and one of the suggestions I've seen people make recently is to run more meat to overload the opponents removal. Seems like a win-win situation. It's a pretty aggressive, GSZ'able body that's either a lightning rod for removal or takes over the game if left unchecked.

---

Taking Arianrhods 1st approach - that I really like - and replacing the Meren and Gitrog with Trackers looks promising. It also interacts nicely with KotR.
The total absence of Abrupt Decay is ominous, but I guess it's ok in the current metagame.
Wouldn't a single Qasali Pridemage be nice?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emuhell

Taking Arianrhods 1st approach - that I really like - and replacing the Meren and Gitrog with Trackers looks promising. It also interacts nicely with KotR.
The total absence of Abrupt Decay is ominous, but I guess it's ok in the current metagame.
Wouldn't a single Qasali Pridemage be nice?

---

I'm a strong proponent of it. Milk that GSZ as much as we can.

I would defend Gitrog in GBW builds, although Meren is, as noted, lackluster at times in the current metagame. Even if they have a removal spell for hypnotoad, he will still cantrip if you've left a fetch in play. If they don't have a removal
spell, he takes the game over -- especially with 8 fetches and a Wasteland. In GB<>, he's likely incorrect, but I want to test him and see how he actually feels.

Tireless Tracker is an unreal Magic card. It is quite possible that we should just be jamming a bunch of them. We're situated in a way to take advantage of that card in a way that not even standard decks can. I would like to note, though, that Clues are expensive to crack. The last thing we want is to end up in a situation where we're spending time and mana cracking clues while people are playing Delvers. I think that there is a very real danger in neglecting the threat that Delver (the deck this time, not the card) poses. It's fine to give a little room vs Delver to improve multiple other matchups -- but we want to maintain our position as the deck that destroys Delver. That is the single biggest thing that we have going for ourselves at this point in time.

Thornscape is fine, but, as noted, invalidated by Punishing Fire and Molten Vortex. Safekeeper helps this, but that will run into the problem that eventually they will either force you to use Safekeeper until you have no lands, and/or Wasteland/Rishadan Port you down enough that Thornscape can't activate. Thornscape will only stop Merit Lage for a turn or two at most, and then Lands will just pivot and change tactics, and they /can/ go around it easily enough. Maybe those 1-2 turns are enough. I'm not sure.

RE@Master of the Wild Hunt -- I wouldn't call him spicy tech, so much as old spice. He used to be run a fair amount pre-Rhino, because he's a Zenithable guy that can absolutely take a game over. An active Master of the Wild Hunt is hell for a lot of decks, as a control finisher. But it's worth remembering that he's adding board presence every turn, when he doesn't need to be shooting things with wolves. He swings for 3->5->7->lethal. Vs a lot of decks, the 7 swing is lethal, because of Probes, Forces, etc...and that's also not counting any chip shots we get in ourselves early, like with Vet beats etc. Like, if Miracles doesn't have a Swords immediately, they are almost required to Terminus, and forcing Miracles to 1-for-1 with Terminus is a place we very much want to be.

RE@Fireiced --

Nic Fit in general is weak to "the nuts." That being said, the format as a whole is moving more and more in this direction. Just having Force of Will is no longer good enough -- consider your Eldrazi opponent's g1 opener, for example. You can't FoW the Eye of Ugin, which is what let him spew 6 power of dudes on turn 1. You /can/ hit the Thought-Knot, but you're still taking an enormous amount of damage and you're way behind in cards and board state.

The Oaths of Nissa are interesting. They're like smaller Ancient Stirrings that can find a wider range of thing. I feel like digging 5 with Stirrings is probably better than digging 3 with Oath, but I could be wrong here.

Surprised you skipped on Ugin. Ugin is a much better top-end planeswalker than Karn is, I think.

Eldrazi Temple is an interesting call. I hadn't actually considered Temples before, but I guess the only real drawback of them is that it makes activating Eye of Ugin harder. Not like we can't still do it, but it would be harder. I think that the Temples are why Fierce Empath underperformed for you. Usually, when I'm grabbing or playing Empath, I can play whatever monstrosity I tutor up with it on the same turn because of Cloudpost mana. I do think that there could be merit in going lowerish, though, for the Temples. Temples give you more clean ways to turn 2 Thought-Knot Seers, which are fantastic and extremely rare in my current build. It's possible that Tron lands need another look, while we're on this topic. That would almost necessitate Titania, I think...but it's possible that she's correct to run anyway.

I've considered World Breaker -- the problem I have with him is that he's not Zenithable, and for a non-Zenithable eldrazi thing, I'd rather go a couple mana bigger and run Ulamog 2.0, which has a much, much better body and effect. Being able to exile 2 creatures has saved my bacon a couple of times now.

Fitting in removal is the last piece of the puzzle, I think. If we can figure out how to squeeze some spot removal into the GB<> versions, I think that we're basically there...just a couple of final tuning issues to resolve, like getting the sideboard and manabase perfect. The space for spot removal is definitely the trickiest problem.