[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by keys

Troop- I'm curious what the rest of your card choices are, and how it compares to Sarah Brennecke's deck from the Minneapolis SCG.

She ran 4 Knights but no Hierarchs or Elspeth.

Also, how do you feel about the interaction between Wasteland and Path to Exile?

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My list is 9 cards different from hers.

+3 Noble Hierarch
+2 Elspeth
+1 Chain Lightning
+1 Fetchland
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Volcanic Island

-1 Wasteland
-2 Fireblast
-2 Loam Lion
-2 Horizon Canopy
-1 Plateau
-1 Mountain

I know that Path and Wasteland conflict, but in practice it doesn't always come up. Usually you hold Path for as long as you can, and use your burn first. Wasteland is all about the early game advantage, whereas you hold Path until you absolutely have to use it. The deck puts on enough pressure early on to get ahead with Wasteland to the point where the basic doesn't matter anymore a good deal of the time. You also have to figure the amount of times you won't see both the cards together at all. Wasteland gives you a window of time to capitalize on. Until you play that Path, you use that window to win the game, or at least put yourself in a good position to win. l admit that it lacks synergy, but the cards individually are too powerful not to play. I'd rather give them a basic than the 4-5 life with STP at that point.

Troop, how does Big Zoo do against other (non-aggro) decks in the format? It seems pretty clear to me (in theory, at least) like it would do better against CounterTop and Chalice decks because of the higher curve and better against Lands because of the Noble Hierarchs, Meddling Mages, and Wastelands.

But what about more dedicated control decks (Landstill, Thopters) or combo decks (Survival Madness, Show and Tell, Storm, etc.)? It clearly has a slower clock, but I'm wondering if the ability to play Meddling Mage or to play more bigger, more resilient threats helps out in that regard. Can

I would say it does better. Against Landstill, all you really need to win is to stick one creature than can attack through Mishra's Factory. Wasteland is also pivotal against the Landstill deck. Theres no sense in playing a bunch of 1 drops to get through a Factory and walking into Wrath. You play more Exalted guys, and more Knight of the Reliquarys, so you're in great shape. Resolving Elspeth is also fantastic. You still play Qasali Pridemage to be pro-active against Standstill, and it's not like the clock is much slower. Loam Lion and Kird Ape really suck against Mishra's Factory, whereas all of our beaters can attack into it. I would say Big Zoo is better against dedicated control, because individually it's threats are stronger.

As far as combo is concerned, I always feel like a dog to it. That's why I board 3 Silence, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and 4 Meddling Mage to deal with it. Meddling Mage is very good against the combo decks you mentioned, and a very unexpected piece of hate. People at least expect to be able to play their cards against a Zoo deck, and sometimes they've only got one card you're afraid of. Often times there will be a match where Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and Path to Exile are lackluster. In those cases, you simply board them all out for Meddling Mages and some other cards. Meddling Mage is great against removal cards like Perish, Firespout, STP, and Innocent Blood. He's there for the combo decks mostly, but he often comes in to replace Lavamancer and can be amazing. The ability to switch gears and play the midrange Naya hate deck is what makes the deck great, imo.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

As far as combo is concerned, I always feel like a dog to it. That's why I board 3 Silence, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and 4 Meddling Mage to deal with it. Meddling Mage is very good against the combo decks you mentioned, and a very unexpected piece of hate. People at least expect to be able to play their cards against a Zoo deck, and sometimes they've only got one card you're afraid of. Often times there will be a match where Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and Path to Exile are lackluster. In those cases, you simply board them all out for Meddling Mages and some other cards. Meddling Mage is great against removal cards like Perish, Firespout, STP, and Innocent Blood. He's there for the combo decks mostly, but he often comes in to replace Lavamancer and can be amazing. The ability to switch gears and play the midrange Naya hate deck is what makes the deck great, imo.

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Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

If it costed 0, then yeah it'd be good.

MBT is about as "good" as it gets against Storm. I always give a slight sigh when I play my 1 drop when my MBT is in hand (it's always been in my opening hand, like a charm) as to put on a helpless show, then stack the storm triggers and windmill slam the trap. If you Storm players would simply duress or chant Zoo players on your combo turn, GG.

Also, threw together a big Zoo list for testing purposes, troop whatcha think? Am I too far off?

4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
3 Lavamancer
3 KotR
3 Hierarch

4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path
2 Elspeth
2 Library
3 Wasteland

11 Fetch
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard options: choke, REB/pyro, MBT, leyline of Sanctity, teeg, bog/crypt, etc

Just putting together a list to begin testing, as I am interested in aquiring some of the cards in order to have both decks.

You're very close to my list. You have to ask yourself why you think the need the Mountain maindeck anymore firstoff. It doesn't help you play Qasali Pridemage, so if it's land #2 in your hand it kinda blows. All of your red cards cost 1, and you're not based in red anymore without Kird Apes or Fireblasts. I'd play another Plateau over it, which helps in casting Elspeth. I play KOTR #4, and only 10 Fetches. I built the deck when I saw this.

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless...mps_2nd_E.html

@ Bryant : At least it's something. I agree that Meddling Mage sucks against Storm, because you can never call the right card, but it definitely comes in. Its not like Grim Lavamancer is going to do more. What I'm saying is that it has many other applications that are much stronger.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

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True, but Mage is also great against other bombs like Loam.

Edit: troop got the gist of it.

Hmm I just tried modern warfare zoo (or big zoo) with 2 elspeths and 3 KOTRs, It's been testing very well for me. Has won me alot of games in the aggro mirror and very good vs countertop bant etc. Tried against landstill, elspeth didn't actually win me a game (damn you spell pierce!), so that's still a hard matchup. Speed wise, both felt the same (I play 4 steppe, 4 necatl, 3 grim lavamancer as my 1 drops), just have to mull into a 1 drop more often. I'd rather have a game winning elspeth come down turn 4/5 than more consistently having a dumb bear T1.

In order to accomodate the higher curve, I added 4 wastelands (24 lands total). I cut 1 coloured source and + 4 colourless, so the addition doesn't affect my colour consistency much. Didn't get flooded at all, wasteland was very useful in conjunction with kitties. Wasteland wasn't a huge bomb, but it was definitely useful. It doesn't singlehandedly win games but I felt like it helped me prolong my early game period for my kitties to get that extra swing in. Also helps me make landdrops for lynx and helps grow KOTR. I'm liking big zoo, would play it over "safe/traditional" zoo anyday, but I'm still 50/50 on a more sligh based zoo (greedy zoo) or big zoo. Sligh based maybe better against dedicated control decks and combo. I hate basics in zoo, screws my drops a lot, and having 1/2 doesn't help my resistance against wasteland very much.

List for reference:

4 Necatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Pridemage
3 KOTR

4 Path
4 Lightning bolt
3 Chain
2 Elspeth
2 Sylvan library

12 fetches
2 Horizon canopy
1 Savanna
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wastelands

I didn't feel that noble heirarch was needed heavily. If I were to test it, what would your recommendation be to cut from this list? I felt grim lavamancer was really crucial in the aggro MU and helps make zoo the dominant deck it is against tribal. Cutting it for noble IMO will be pretty unwise. Is making your bomb drops 1 turn earlier that important? Thoughts most welcome,Thanks!

EDIT: Ah I see that it was the lynx that got the boot and not grim. I have to say that lynx is pretty broken with 12 fetches and 24 lands. I recommend trying it out in place of noble.

I've played this deck and it's good okay, but it's slower than other zoo decks^^
against control it has a bette matchup as I tested but against aggro decks it's not that good anymore.

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

I've played this deck and it's good okay, but it's slower than other zoo decks^^
against control it has a bette matchup as I tested but against aggro decks it's not that good anymore.

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Listen, not to be rude, but I've never seen you post anything insightful on these boards ever. If you'd like to elaborate on this with more than 2 sentences, (What aggro decks you tested against, What your observations were, How Big Zoo's differences lost you games, etc) I'd be much more inclined to take you seriously. As it stands, you're just trolling.

@ Steppe Lynx : Now believe me when I say this, I've tested the shit out of this card, and it is very tempermental. Generally in Magic, being Greedy is a bad thing. Being Greedy can be a good thing sometimes, and can win you games, but you need to evaluate how many games you've won or lost by taking a particular risk. This involves alot of playtesting. Playing Steppe Lynx is a risk in itself, presenting design constraints onto your deck as well. You become heavily devoted to having a turn 1 source of white mana to cast it, making you want to play more inital sources of white. Steppe Lynx is at his best turn 1, and gets exponentially worse as the game goes on. It's terrible off the top, and if you don't open a Plateau or Savannah you need to fetch for one, and Steppe Lynx won't get the juice from that land. You need additional Lands to sustain it, and if you have no land to play, it becomes a dead card. You can compare Steppe Lynx to Kird Ape and Loam Lion, and it looks pretty good by that comparison. But when you compare it to Noble Hierarch, in a deck running Wasteland and Elspeth, I think it's pretty clear what the safer choice is. Mana denial is rampant in this format too. You need to get lucky with Lynx, and I'm not the kind of person that wants to stake myself on getting lucky in tournament play. I've played with Steppe Lynx a great deal, but I think he's just too unstable for the gameplan I'm going for.

^Ignore him until he actually posts something of substance. I got a message a few weeks ago from him asking about something and I went into depth explaining things, not even a reply saying thank you or anything. He's just posting in a foreign language, and he's only after what he wants. Nothing towards contribution.

I'm gonna test out Lynx in a big zoo list just for the option of having an explosive start in a slower deck. Maybe that's not what the deck needs, but man can it end games. Kird Lions are gone from my lists entirely. I, too, am in favor of sligh Zoo with Lynx and lots of burn or now Big Zoo with Elspeth, Libraries, wastelands and hierarchs. the thing about Lynx is; if you don't open up wtih a Lynx hand, you open with a Nacatl hand, and if that's not it, then it's a lavamancer hand. Rock paper scissors. Sometimes you have a mixture of the three and life is good. Merely having the option has been a bit of a blessing for me. And I think it comes down, again, to personal preference. Play it safe and play Kird Lions, go for the throat with Lynx.

I have yet to find for myself if Lynx has a place in big zoo. here's a question to those who have more experience with the deck: Is a Big zoo with a transitional sideboard viable?

I have to admit my list is very damn greedy with lynx, no basics and high cc drops. I'll tune it and become less greedy as my testing progresses. I'll be having a play session today with some buddies and I'll grind out the heirarch vs lynx in big zoo question. Another question to more experienced zoo players. Is basics mandatory in zoo? I find that basics save you 10% of the time but slows you down (sometimes only minor) 30% of the time and are ok the other 60% of the time. In those 30%of games when I couldn't land two 1 drops or a pridemage T2, I found that I usually lost those games because my basics screwed me over. Thoughts appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

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What do you even name against TES? Tendrils, Warrens, and Grapeshot all seem pretty bad since storm can just get a different one. Same issue with naming either burning wish or infernal tutor. Maybe LED?

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Originally Posted by DFY889

What do you even name against TES? Tendrils, Warrens, and Grapeshot all seem pretty bad since storm can just get a different one. Same issue with naming either burning wish or infernal tutor. Maybe LED?

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The first thing I would name if I played Meddling Mage would be Ad Nauseam, and then Burning Wish.

I'm really interested in what a sideboard with Leyline of Sanctity would look like. I moved 3 KotR back to the MD today, and replaced Steppe Lynx with Kird Apes. Finished 4-1 (Beat Dredge, Canadian Thresh, lost to Burn, then beat Merfolk x2) today, losing only to burn, which had me at 10 life before I cast a spell in g3 and won after a quick start. Current playing:

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast


In a mixed and random metagame with what seems to be more tribal / control at the moment, lots of CB/Top, Vials, and Standstill (both from Merfolk and Landstill) flying around today in general, but like I mentioned Burn was what wrecked me. Any suggestions?

Lightning Helix? It's like +1 cards against Burn and its serviceable everywhere else but a little slow in some matchups like the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Lightning Helix? It's like +1 cards against Burn and its serviceable everywhere else but a little slow in some matchups like the mirror.

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Yeah, unfortunately I chose not to run the card today, the last time I played in that metagame I made out well without it (Chain Lightnings served better), but this time I went in without. Whoops.

I'm gonna start testing Leyline of Sanctity as a 3 of in my build of Big Zoo, int he sideboard of course. It hoses burn, against which I've never played. It forces Storm to go Wish for something, again costing them cards, mana and time, and it stops discard. All relevant threats to Zoo in any metagame. On top of it all, it can be hardcast if it is bounced, or destroyed then drawn. I think it's a good card for Big zoo. Normal/Sligh zoo i'm not so sure, mainly because of the hardcasting part.

If you are running Leylines, I would recommend 4 of them to increase the chance of having them in your starting seven, and to decrease the chance that you have to mulligan just to get them.
But besides that, are you facing a lot of Storm and Burn in your metagame lately? You say that you haven't faced Burn ever before, so what is the reason to take the Leyline in instead of Gaddock Teeg against Storm (except for the fact that you have to take your Elspeths out ofcourse, but in my opinion they're to slow to have a decent effect against Storm). I recognize the fact that the Leyline can get into play before turn 1, but you have to have it in your opening hand, or otherwise wait until turn 4, which is most likely to late. Otherwise, what about True Believer? It can come down on T2, it offers the same amount of protection, and it kicks for 2. Unfortunately, it's completely useless against burn.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

@ Steppe Lynx : Now believe me when I say this, I've tested the shit out of this card, and it is very tempermental. Generally in Magic, being Greedy is a bad thing. Being Greedy can be a good thing sometimes, and can win you games, but you need to evaluate how many games you've won or lost by taking a particular risk. This involves alot of playtesting. Playing Steppe Lynx is a risk in itself, presenting design constraints onto your deck as well. You become heavily devoted to having a turn 1 source of white mana to cast it, making you want to play more inital sources of white. Steppe Lynx is at his best turn 1, and gets exponentially worse as the game goes on. It's terrible off the top, and if you don't open a Plateau or Savannah you need to fetch for one, and Steppe Lynx won't get the juice from that land. You need additional Lands to sustain it, and if you have no land to play, it becomes a dead card. You can compare Steppe Lynx to Kird Ape and Loam Lion, and it looks pretty good by that comparison. But when you compare it to Noble Hierarch, in a deck running Wasteland and Elspeth, I think it's pretty clear what the safer choice is. Mana denial is rampant in this format too. You need to get lucky with Lynx, and I'm not the kind of person that wants to stake myself on getting lucky in tournament play. I've played with Steppe Lynx a great deal, but I think he's just too unstable for the gameplan I'm going for.

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I played Zoo a few months back when the meta was a lot faster with the mystical tutor fueled ANT and Reanimators and Zoo needed the explosiveness then and the risk of Lynx was worth it. But tonight my friend built Zoo and we playtested it with various current tier decks such as UG madness/survival, UB Merfolk, BR Goblins, and 4C Countertop jace, and I completely agree with you on Lynx. The point of a deck like Zoo is its consistency and to punish other decks that stumble and wit the meta different now, I like Sarah's list from the most recent SCG 5k. We all know at this point Steppe Lynx is it's either really good or really crappy, it relies completely on other cards, primarily fetchlands and/or Knight, and without them completely suck. It can win games or completely crap out and Zoo doesn't need that erratic inconsistency for the current meta.

I tested with a friend today (Andrew) and the following were my observations. Noble heirarch initially didn't appeal to me, but on troopatroop's advice, I gave it a shot. The extra mana boost in conjunction with wasteland was excellent, I could play around daze alot more and could empty my hand quicker. I killed at roughly the same speed because it spit out kotrs and elspeth quicker. In my mu vs new horizons, noble was crucial in keeping me afloat against stifles, daze and wastelands. Other observations, new horizons felt positive to me. In the games, I could actually outgrind them. I felt like with 4 kotrs, 2 elspeth and 2 sylvans, I could match their bombs and gas in the long game if not overpower them. Merfolk is still a very good mu, nothing changed. Reanimator was abysmal! Without steppe lynx and price of progress/ fireblast. I had no chance of killing quick enough. IMO playing big zoo is worth it, we don't see as much combo as during the mystical days. For reference I cut lynx and a waste for 4 nobles and 1 more kotr. Still hate basics.