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With all the talk of improving the awful Omni matchup, has anyone considered just running 3 Iona in the board? I play in a fairly large meta (Seattle area, Card Kingdom, etc...) and every show and tell player has exclusively switched to Omni over Sneak, making bridge pretty useless in most cases.
Iona off S&T is pretty much game over for Omni. The only workaround is to Cunning Wish before they cast S&T for Eladamri's Call. We can even conceal it under the top 3 with top to hide it from probe.
This is pretty much the same answer as canonist + blast only canonist has more utility against other MUs. The biggest problem is that you will probably get probed at some point and then they just play around it (eg. S&T Emrakul). Not that it's terrible or anything. But I think 3 x canonist would be just as good, and is also good against storm, belcher, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
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If you're truly overrun by Omnitell in your local metagame, I bet Iona would be totally insane. Also worth noting that they can't even cunning wish for eladamri if you put a painter out first and name whatever color you name there.
I don't think it's useful in any other matchup though, as hardcasting it would never happen, and never fast enough, and we don't have any good ways to get it in the graveyard or otherwise cheat Iona into play.
Regarding omni and miracles I think vexing susher goes a long long way to way we want to be doing. Hold up reb mana then get him into play and counter SnS and wishes as needed.
Iona is totally wrecking, but as others state it's way too narrow as our only way of getting is down is via Show and Tell. However I really like the interaction with Painter's Servant, completely locking whatsoever.
How about cheating her out with Summoner's Egg? Egg can be tutored with Recruiter or Enligthened Tutor, cheated in and out with Welder, so it fits as a 1-of.
Still a bit clunky as we can't easily find Iona, and running several is a little meh, but just a thought ..
Been in the Nic Fit section, have you? Lol :laugh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcrux
If you want to start running stuff you don't mind sacrificing, you can also consider running cards like Cabal Therapy and Diabolic Intent. They both serve as fine sac outlets and either disrupt your opponent or fetch cards you need.
Consider lines of play like cast Recruiter, find the Egg, sacrifice Recruiter (it's done doing its job anyway) to Diabolic Intent and find Iona :smile:. Then cast Cabal Therapy to see if the coast is clear, drop the Egg and flashback the Therapy :laugh:. I can tell you from experience this works more often than one might think :laugh:.
Have to say I really like the sound of this.. weird tech with awesome line of play, simply perfect. Maybe I'll fool around with this and Thrull Wizard at some point ^^'Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As for the normal Rw Painter, we also have Gamble, but that's a bit too farfetched maybe..
Anyways, heading back to reserved thread, I really think Ethersworn Canonist still is an underrated answer to Omnitell. Combined with a decent clock we shouldn't have too much problems.
As for the Vexing Shusher, I think our 8 hardcounters for 1 mana in the 75 is sufficent. Also it doesn't help against Omnitell's Boseiju, Who Shelters All, or against Miracle's Sword to Plowshares or Terminus.
But I might be mistaken.. it's tutorable with Recruiter, so if you find a place in the board, try it out!
I do not mean to be overly negative, but as an Elves! player I can tell you the Canonist is mostly nothing more than a mere speedbump for decks looking to resolve only 1/2 spells a turn for the win. It buys you 1 turn at best. It shines in MU's where your opponent wants to resolve a string of spells before going lethal (ie. ANT/TEST), forcing them to dig for their Chain of Vapor before they can go off (though at that point, you might have your 1 CMC hardcounters to deal with that :smile:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcrux
No it doesn't help much against elves, but the main discussion for quite some time have been Omni-tell, where it really shines. Elves is a completely different question, we have our answers in Firebolts, Bridges, Revoker and maybe EE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I agree with Echelon it's lackluster vs Omni-tell. It's not bad (better then nothing), but it doesn't really lock the game down, and it's not hard for Omni-tell to break though the speed bump from Canonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcrux
I think the only way to gain ground versus Omni is to warp the deck in ways we do not want. As that will ruin many other matchups. Now if your local meta is 40% or > of Omni sure these options are okay such as multiple main deck Canonist or Rip's. If it's not, just go beat down path with Grindy control fight over the important spells of theirs. Our spells just do not do much here. I'm going to specify that we use ten blast for their things and not to force though things of ours. Never put up a fight over one of our spells
Against Omnitell if you have canonist and a blast in hand you are typically in good shape. You drop canonist with their show and tell and then blast their omniscience and they can't respond. The only problem is if they know it's coming and drop Emrakul with show and tell. You have to hope to have a bridge or containment priest for that scenario. Sad for fighting overt their important spells, of course we have our blasts to attempt to counter the show and tell but if I have a canonist in hand I would try to hold one blast for the omniscience. As far as I can tell, this is the best plan for beating Omnitell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
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I feel like the Emrakul-in-hand kill is infrequent enough that if you have Canonist and Blast, it's better to YOLO it and let the S+T resolves and blast the Omniscience, as this actually sets them far enough behind for you to have a chance at putting the clock on them. Leaving them with an extra combo piece makes it very easy for them to reassemble quickly, so I think the risk of Emrakul in hand is usually worth taking. This depends a lot on which list you're playing against, but I think most only run 1-2 Emrakul, so it's far more likely that Omniscience is coming in.
Realistically, you're also dead to Emrakul being in play even behind a Bridge or whatnot, since you won't be able to attack well, and Koth/Jaya + Painter etc. are likely so slow that you'll die to the Omniscience/EtI/Clash/alternate kill before you beat an Emrakul in play. Probably best to risk it and grab two combo cards out of their hand if possible.
So on Monday I decided to play painter at the Card Kingdom weekly. They always get a good turnout so it's just 4 rounds of swiss then prizes based on win/loss. I beat burn, merfolk, lost to UR delver in 3, then beat omni in the finals.
My burn win was mostly due to his lack of experience. He burned a lot of lightning bolts on me and didn't save one for defense. I managed to race him and combo off twice. Merfolk was, as usual, a pretty easy matchup. I think this matchup is only ever difficult when they are running chalice, otherwise post board we have 8 blasts + 3 firebolts and we only have to worry about racing true-name (if it even resolves.) UR was very close. I win game 1, surprisingly, even with all my dead maindeck moon effects. Game 2 I try to race him but he has too many counterspells and removal spells. Game 3 I am on the bridge plan because after game 2 he seems to only have 1 maindeck artifact removal spell. It takes me too long to empty my hand, I do get bridge online, but he bolts me to death 2 turns later.
I lost against Omni game 1 despite being able to counter his first attempt at going off with 2 blasts. I got the beats going and landed a bridge but as usual, it didn't matter, he eventually dropped an omniscience and found the wish. Game 2 I won with canonist/blast backup. I managed to draw canonist in my opener. I considered just sitting and waiting for the show and tell but the way he was playing said "I have cantrips and nothing else" so I dropped a welder and then canonist and it stuck. I managed to draw a top and then subsequently filter for blasts for the rest of the game, I countered 2 show and tells and 1 dig through time before I finally swung for lethal about 14 turns in.
Game 3 was interesting. He lets a recruiter resolve (which I believe was a big mistake, he told me afterwards he had a force) and I of course grab canonist. He actually decides to go for the show and tell while I have a red open, and I blast his omniscience. Not sure if he'd played painter before, this shouldn't happen vs an experienced omni opponent. He manages to bolt canonist 3 turns later but not before I find a thorn of amethyst. Thorn was actually great here, It kept him from casting more than 2 spells and allowed me to win the counter war over show and tell twice. I get him down to 6 with a tormod's crypt + grindstone + top and some beaters on the field and I top into painter the next turn and grind + crypt him
I still think Canonist definitely isn't enough to push the matchup into favorable territory, especially if our omni opponent's are savvy enough to just counter the recruiter. Once it's in our hand it's difficult for them to deal with it, since they stopped running dream halls and are forced into accepting the symmetry of show and tell. I still want to test iona, but until I have 60$ to blow on sideboard tech I'm going to try maindecking canonist.
Yeah, the more I test the match-up the more I think just finding and holding canonist with blast is our best chance against Omnitell. Also, has anyone ever tried Goblin Charbelcher in the deck as a secondary win con? It will obviously not always hit for a ton but it has the advantage of taking out creatures when the need arises as well as planeswalkers. I might try it in the SB for a little while and see how it plays. Anyone else have any experience with it?
Love the idea of it, but think it fails purely on the fact that having an alternate win-con be an artifact with an activated ability (or in other cases, a creature) doesn't really provide a new angle of attack against the hate brought in against us in a lot of scenarios. I could be wrong though, what match ups are you thinking of it for? I don't think it's good against Miracles as opposed to the planeswalker alternatives, and all the Goyf/Delver decks have numerous SB options that take care of it, and it seems too slow against all of the combo decks, though I could see Omnitell hitting itself hard enough off of Probes and Tombs that it could work once in a blue moon.
I could be totally wrong though, and I would love to be, given the looks you'd probably get.
I'm definitely thinking miracles and any situation where we are hiding under a bridge and want to get damage through. I actually thought of it as I was playing against show and tell and couldn't swing with koth as they had Emrakul out but I had bridge. Sure, I can eventually try to ultimate koth and then start pinging for 2-3 points a turn but just wanted something a little faster. The problem I've had with koth against miracles is that I'm trying to race a Jace with koth and they have so many answers to creatures that they end up killing my mountains when I animate them.
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The whole point of playing koth is the ultimate. If removal is in their range, try targeting volc/nonbasicsmooned next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
This came up in an EDH game of course but has the idea of Curse of Marit Lage been brought up at all? If we accelerate into this against either miracles or Omni, would it be good enough? It would help give an advantage back to us for them using basics(and volcs and tundra's for that matter). T3 or T4 after they've made 2-3 land drops and haven't won yet this could set them back enough that we can win. This is choke with an upside that it's red and taps islands when it enters, downside it's 5 and not 3. Can be utilized in either shortcake or even MonoR painter(might help mono out more)
I actually really like that card. 5 mana is a lot, but I seriously cannot see Miracles ever beating it provided we're doing anything at all in the mean time. It can come down potentially fast enough against Omnitell, and there's enough junk to board out in that matchup anyway that even if it's not ideal there, it's a better chance than leaving in, say, Revokers, Grindstones, or extra Tops, or bringing in an Ensnaring Bridge.
I could also see it being pretty good against various midrangey decks like Grixis Control, EsperBlade, Shardless, that sort of thing.