Do you really consider a card which is uncastable before like turn 5 "better against combo"?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
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Do you really consider a card which is uncastable before like turn 5 "better against combo"?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
You might be right, that DTT is not needed in miracles... But yes, DTT is definitely better than Jace or Entreat vs combo. Also, it is easily castable on turn 4, and sometimes on turn 3. The beauty of DTT is that it is an instant, and frequently costs 2. Those are its distinct advantages over the other usual late game bombs. I think it is something worth at least testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
100%. ..btw: so is Jace. You will never ever tap out on your turn on turn 4 against Combo. Being able to cast it eot to refill your hand with the perfect disruption pieces (to complete CB/Top or find the FoW you need to survive) is huge!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Also: more often than not Combo will attempt to go off run into a well-timed counter spell, which may buy us a couple of turns. DTT is the perfect tool here to keep the upper hand.
I suppose you mean the deck Bob Huang won the SCG Open with.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13reaper666
Deck seems to be pretty sick. I tested the MU against a friend of mine.
It does have a blistering fast clock, plays a strictly better Goblin Guide, has Pyromancer that will go crazy, once they untap with him and has draw spells to refill their hand consistently. I had a positive record against it, but that was due to the fact that i play 4 Terminus, 4 STP and MD blasts and SFM in my SB. If you don't play the full set of removal preboard (4 Terminus&4 Sword&Snapcaster) and a couple of blasts, it is definetely a tough MU.
So many people don't respect/ expect the deck and are unprepared, especially online, so i'll play it over Miracles for quite some time, because it's really powerful and a lot easier to play, which is good if you want to double queue.
I really like the deck. I also got smashed by it last night too. Mainly due to a GIGANTIC play error on my part (I was executing a more complex line of play to get terminus set up, got interrupted in the middle of it, and when I looked back I was like "oh brainstorm? let me put this island and fetch back---- GAAAAHHH!") that would have not happened if I was playing in a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13reaper666
I'm still not sold on a zero-creature MD, and have really been liking the legends package. Moving a Terminus to the board for a Verdict in the main is interesting, and I know lists used to do this. I believe though someone (maybe PV?) said that we're a miracles deck damnit, and we should be running all of them, and thus a lot of people switched it up to 4 (maybe not the cause, but it's happened)
As for Dig, I've cut a snapcaster from the list I'm currently running but haven't drawn it yet:
/// MD
1 Snapcaster
3 Clique
1 Venser
3 Jace
4 Terminus
2 Entreat
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Swords
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
4 Force
1 Dig Through Time
2 Karakas
1 Mountain
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic
4 Tarn
4 Strand
2 Mesa
/// SB
1 Cage
1 RIP
1 Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Keranos
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon
1 Verdict
1 Staticaster
1 Wear // Tear
1 Venser
1 Council's Judgment
After playing a couple of matches against the UR delver deck I can say that the deck puts up a great fight against miracles. Their weak point is that they only have 12 threats so having the maximum number of swords to plowshares and force of will can really help you stave off the early game. After that it's about landing either counterbalance or stoneforge mystic to lock up the game before they recover with treasure cruises. Sulfuric Vortex from the board can be a pain and is another reason why Force of Will is super important in the matchup.
Hydroblast could also be considered for the sideboard.
I still highly recommend playing thopter miracles. It improves the delver, bug and mirror matchups by so so much. Currently at 31-4 in matches with my list on magic online http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247965#online
I'm definitely interested in trying your list in the coming months... There's a few pricey things here I just don't have the funds for even online at the moment (Leylines, batterskull, 4th Jace...).Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiasNL
What do people think TC is going to do for BUG delver? It seems like the Eternal Central guys at least are going to drastically improve it's matchup vs. Miracles, and I'm inclined to agree with them to a point. I think us having access to Blast effects will definitely help keep them under control, but the matchup definitely gets harder because we need to pick and choose when we use them.
My money's on UR Pyromancer being the best of the Delver decks. I think Treasure Cruise works better in a deck that can empty it's hand more effectively. Plus, not only can this deck Blood Moon the other Delvers, it's less vulnerable to graveyard hate than the others. If both both players are delving, I see a lot of 1/2 Tarmogoyfs and vanilla 1/2 Deathrites coming.
Yeah, RIP seems like bad value vs. the deck because you're only hitting 4 cards. I think Blast effects are going to be a much better answer, at least vs UR. I could be wrong though. I'm wrong all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
It'll be interesting to see the new changes this weekend in the open. Should have some vital information on trends in the metagame for those of us going to NJ. Allows us to Adapt before it becomes a problem.
I'm going to switch up (read: back) to Ein's 4 ponder build for the time being. I do want a blood moon in that sideboard though.
Any chance of a primer update its three years out and contains tech like 4 of peacekeepr in the sideboard with matchup analysis on goblins new horizons merfolk and zoo :rolleyes:
I think Ein was working on one... Take a look at his signature for some solid primers / articles that he wrote for SCG and other sites. I really feel like we need a "reset" and a new thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Since no one person seems to be putting together a full premier, perhaps we could do a community version. That way the work for each part can be spread out. Here's an example starting page on Google Docs. All I did was copy the current table of contents from the beginning of this thread over, but it should still give you a flavor of what we could do with this system. Currently it's setup so that anybody with the link can view and comment. Try it out yourself to get a feel for it! You can actually do full edits this way, but instead of being directly updated on the main version, they will show up as potential changes until approved by anybody with full edit privileges. Currently that's just me, but I can add people to give full edit privileges if people would like to be more active in updating a primer like that. Additionally Google Docs will keep a history of revisions, so if for some reason we need to revert a change that will all be tracked for us.
So what do you guys think, do you like an idea like this? It doesn't have to be my document or with Google Docs, but I think putting together a community primer could definitely be very effective. And I would be more than happy to manage the page and edits, although I might not be able to do much writing for awhile.
The only worry might be some conflicting opinions on what exactly should be in the primer, but as long as the number of people with full edit privileges is kept low I think that there shouldn't be too many issues with things like this. Another advantage to a community edition is that anybody who has done work already can just integrate their writing into the open document.
I think the best way to do a Miracles primer would be in the same style as the Painter one. That is three people have opening posts that each explain a different take on the deck. Since there are (from my count) 4 ways to build Miracles, that could be effective.
Went to locals last night with 4 Ponder list in a meta of TC Delver decks. I am a bit busy right now and cant elaborate yet, but Ein was very much correct in his initial assessment.
I went 3-0-1 beating TC BUG Delver 2-0 (g2 he resolved 2 cruises and a Sylvan Library...still won somehow), TC Storm 2-1 (a brew), and Cruisin USA 2-0 (g2 he resolved 2 cruises, g3 he resolved 3). I split r4 but we played it out anyways, and I was demolished by TC BUG Delver 0-2.
My conclusion from this night of testing (as little as it was) is that CounterTop does not care about TC. At the moment Ein's list is the strongest CounterTop list and I think moving forward it is a good idea to play.
My biggest concern, however, is beating the TC BUG decks because it seems Top alone cannot beat Treasure Cruise. I am actually so worried about it that I am starting to consider Blood Moon over the 3rd Flusterstorm.
Compare to Grixis Delver or UR Delver, TC cannot possibly be as good in BUG/Sultai Delver. What good is holding Abrupt Decay in your hand when you need to reach Threshold? Even if he doesn't have AD, it's entirely possible the BUG Delver's opponent is harassing BUG Delver player's graveyard via DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
If Bob Huang's UR Delver ever takes off, which many of us still doubt, then it's actually good for Miracles.
1. RUG/Temur Delver suffers tremendously, since every tempo deck including RUG is trying to abuse TC, they are diminishing their own Goyf and Mongoose.
2. Wasteland and Stifle might become less common. Again, to rush toward threshold, holding Stifle is not desirable. That UR Delver runs no Wasteland.
Bottom line, DTT is competing against Snapcaster's slot, makes little sense to run both. The creatureless version (Reid Duke) can integrate DTT in the best, simply by replacing Preordain.
I don't mind starting out writing the primer as a community version. Also, as stated earlier, I'd be willing to take primary responsibility for creating the primer after I'm done with my midterms, which will be done in a week. I am the one who wrote the Team America primer so if you want to see an example of my work go look in that thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...a-(BUG-Delver). The Miracles primer I would create would probably be bigger than that since there is more than one build for this deck. In that vein at least I would ask people probably to write sections of the primer if you have experience with a particular build like thopter miracles or legend miracles. I would also be open to suggestions for other sections and content that should be in an updated Miracles primer. Let me know if you guys want me to get the ball rolling on this soon.
@AnziD: Have you actually played against the BUG Delver Cruise decks much beyond what you reported about? I don't mean to offend you or anything but the matchup seems fine for miracles still. At worse it is even rather slightly favorable, which just means you have to play as tight as possible.
Why would you cut snap for DTT. Both are insanely good cards? Also snapping back DTT is awesome. I'm cutting 1 counterspell for dig. I will regret it on turn 2-3, but after that dig is basically counterspell with insane upside (since you can find FoW + blue cards about 50-90% of the time depending on how many cards you've seen).
Paying 3 cards, 2 Mana and delving 6 to counter a spell seams like a shit trade to me.
Edit.
I think I just talked myself out of playing the card.
Every draw spell is awful if you tack Force of Will onto it.
Agreed this is one of those decks where there's no 'one true way' to build and even play the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I would be willing to write a bit more indepth about my thopter foundry build if people are interested in the reasoning behind the card choices and such.
I'd be absolutely interested! Honestly, the more shared info the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiasNL
It's not a 3 for 1. Its a 1 for 1. DTT is literally a counterspell in that situation. You only have to do this in desperate stations. A lot of times you won't even need to counterspell whatever is on the stack after you see the 7. Like if your opponent casts Lilana of the veil, often any miracles player would cast counterspell if they had it in hand. Imagine instead of counterspell you have DTT. You cast it and see: FoW, BS, Vendilion clique, Top, 3 land. You could take FoW and BS and your DTT is basically a counterspell where you had to delve and pay 1 life. But youd probably just take top/BS and Clique and now you can just ignore the lily. But imagine it is a sneak attack being cast instead of lily... Now the FoW+blue card option is pretty nice to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I mean I am probably not playing 100% optimally, but I think it is bold to say that this matchup is slightly favorable at worse. The new trend is to play Stifles and that makes the matchup even harder. When you throw TC into the mix everything just gets tossed in the air. I'm curious as to why you think it is favorable with Ein's list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
I'm not so sure the BUG matchup gets harder with treasure cruise. What is BUG usually cutting? Hymns, thoughtseize, Liliana's, Stifle, bobs, Tombstalkers? Besides the tombstalkers, I think cutting the others is a good thing for us.
As I mentioned earlier, I have a Google Docs up for work on a community primer. I wrote up a brief introduction, organized the page better so it will be easier to add content, and threw in a list from the most recent SCG Open with a 1st Miracles placing. Special thank you to Klaus for getting things started by writing about Terminus. If we all contribute a little bit we can get together a really nice document I believe.
Remember, you can make direct edits to the appearance of the page, just as if you were editing somebody else's paper. Any changes need to be approved before they get implemented into the document. Before approval everybody will still be able to view you proposed changes though, so there's no issue with doing work and then not having it show up. Approval basically means a person with edit privileges clicks accept for your changes--it's not some process that will take a lot of work. Currently only myself and Klaus have these privileges on the page, but if you're interested in doing that role as well with us send me a message and I can give you the privileges. The edit control is just there as a safety precaution to ensure that we get the best possible document written up.
@Klaus
How is Dig through time working out for you?
I really like Dig Through Time in my Sultai deck for Standard but haven't tried it in Miracles yet.
Not sure I like relying on Entreat and Jae with no flash creatures at all. I like the flash creatures to attack planeswalkers and give an end of turn option as well as disrupt with Clique.
@Adryan
I tried out Bob Huang's UR delver deck and it really surprised me how much I like it the drawing cards is nuts with all the cantriping into Treasure cruises.
Haven't tried playing against it with Miracles yet but counter top still shuts off most of what they draw off Treasure Cruise.
@MattiasNL
Your Thoper Miracles looks pretty good for the MTGO online meta. Will have to try that on MTGO at some point. I was running miracles with Stoneforge main deck because of all the burn in the online meta.
How is Thoper Miracles against, Combo, Elves and Death and Taxes? Seems runing less Terminus would be a liability against creature decks or does Batterskull and Thopter tokens hold up aggro pretty well?
@exallium
Treasure cruise is good in BUG delver but what exactly do you cut for it? You can't run Dark Confidant and Treasure Cruise. Dark Confidant is the biggest threat out of BUG delver that was the card I was most scared of out of BUG Delver if you can't get rid of it immediately. If they are cutting 2-3 Dark Confidant for Treasure Cruise that is ok since they trading their draw engine for a different one. Cruise nerfs Tarmogoyf and eats Deathrite food but Dark Confidant is vulnerable to removal. BUG also tends to hold Abrupt Decay in hand and things like Liliana don't go to the graveyard right away.
@Kylehyde
I think they cut some number of Dark Confidant if they run it since flipping an 8 to Dark Confidant is terrible. Hymm is still very good if opponent does not draw a Treasure cruise.
There's a misconception about Hymn being bad now. If my opponent is busy casting Ancestrals to counter my Ancestrals, I want my Ancestrals to find me random card advantage. Ancestral drawing three 1-1's loses to Ancestral into Hymn, a 1-1, and almost anything else. It is easily castable, and can just hit a Treasure Cruise.
The only problem is with Hymn having low impact if drawn off TC aka castable turn 4+Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
That has always been true. The difference is that with Cruises in decks people will have cards in hand in the late-game. If anything it's better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I see a problem if your opponent has already enough lands in play to cast his spells drawn with TC. What if your opponent draws like Wasteland + Delver + X turn 4 after topdecking a TC?Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
anyone have any suggestions of the merfolk match-up? I seems pretty darn grindy and I always feel on the back foot, not unwinnable by any means but would love some suggestions (beyond the obvious countering of aether vial)
Sorry about my last post. I guess my writing got jumbled up because I was in a hurry to make the post. What I meant to say is that Team America is at worst at least even now. By that I'm referring to discard builds. As for stifle builds, I don't have enough experience with Ein's deck against that particular build to say how the match up is. I'd imagine with the inclusion of Stifle it is probably slightly unfavorable as its like a RUG Delver deck with Abrupt Decay, but that is just based on how good stifle can be against Miracles. Thus, my advice at this point would be to just find a way to test the matchup in order to figure it out. I'm sure this deck has some way to solve the problems you're having :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Then your Hymn is just as bad as it always has been in that situation? It's still slightly better. Your opponent could well Cruise -> Goyf -> Go. Hymn -> Removal is probably winning you the game there. Other plays may not have done. I'm not saying that Cruise means everyone has a full hand all of the time, I'm saying that late game people are more likely to have more cards in hand than they used to. If two players decide they're going to Cruise back to hand size for a turn or so and set up some resources, interrupting that with some disruptive card advantage is going to be the difference you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
That's not the point, anyway. If we were to discuss this we'd need to do it on the TA thread or something, not here.
RE: Merfolk:
The current problem is that Merfolk isn't a highly played deck, and has a lot of different builds going around. I've seen Stifle-Waste variants, the Factory/Vault versions. My G/F used to play a 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 4 Force, then just Creatures. Some play Brainstorm, some play White. These all play out very differently. You need your opening not to be soft to one of these, and decent against them all. The only real advice you can get, is play Snapcaster Mage and Swords. Aggro requires you to interact relatively quickly. They have a T3 Goldfish, usually T4, but hold up a decent chunk of disruption for us trying to cobble something like an Entreat for game together, or resilience in the face of Terminus and StP. You need to overload them with removal, and very often it is correct to play into the Daze so that you're not worrying about it when it comes to trying to land a bigger Spell.
Hey all! Thanks a lot for the participation on the community Primer. We're now up to 7 pages of content (which is only slightly inflated due to decklists). I put the link in my signature in case you want to contribute later and don't have the page saved or don't want to look up my original post. Dragonslayer_90 also offered to help be an editor for it, so we're now up to three editors including Klaus and myself.
As for Merfolk, you can always play fire/groves :D That's how I beat our local player on Merfolk anyway. I actually really like Porphyry Nodes against them. It buys a ton of time early game, which is where I always feel most scared against that deck, and it can't even be hit by cursecatcher! It can hurt you later if you're facing an army and need removal now, but I think the early/late game tradeoffs are worth it in this case. Supreme Verdict is also not bad in that regard, since you know if you get to 4 mana you can get a hard reset. Some other solutions are snapcaster + REBs and swords.
LEGACY REPORT - WINNER @ 9 WITH OVINOGEDDON UWR MIRACLES
http://www.metagame.it/articoli-lega...-miracles.html
Google Translate makes it just about readable. Some of it sounds like an acid trip thought...
"
G1: I win the die and childbirth moor
G1: I win the die giving birth Polluted Delta step.
"
English version will be online within one week.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
There will also be an (english) article about the 2nd place at Ovino.
Greetings
So I'be had a ton of practice vs most "fair" decks as the meta I play in is pretty BUG, BANT, and Delver heavy, which I have a pretty good handle against. But every once in a while when DnT shows up I just get my butt kicked. Outside of the obvious "FoW aether vial" how do you approach this match up? With main decked spirit of the labyrinth and aven mindsencor there is just so much I'm playing around.
Thoughts?
DnT I feel like if they have vial its almost impossible. You can get blown out at every single point of the game and they always have 3-4 cards in hand. Otherwise its good.
Hm, I think there is no effective way of fighting tc against bug, you just have to eat it, land a balance/rip and pray to god they dont have too many decays/golgari/pulse. Dont know how the rest of you are feeling about it.
DnT vial active is really tough for most blue-based lists. Miracles at least has Terminus to sweep and reset. On the bright side DnT is fresh meat in front of Elfball so the meta is managing the problem for big blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
As a BUG player I agree on TC being a really tough thing for Miracles to manage against us. It's the same thing for us against UR Delver. BUG almost has to eat the TC's and manage the fallout because going hellbent or nearly so trying to keep them from resolving TC is a disaster if they get it off anyway. I had a game recently where UR Delver resolved two TC's against me and I still won when I finally got the opportunity to resolve my own. On the first two throwing TC to FoW seemed like a horrible idea given the massive CA difference if I failed to stop it.
As long as my counterbalance is online I don't really care if treasure cruise resolves. They're going to have more spells countered by counterbalance?