[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You guys are aware that running the heavy green board, 2 green lands and basic(s) is kinda absurd now AFTER we cut Gemstone Mines? :)

That sideboard and gameplan (Decay vs D&T ... Was horrible with 12 lands and even with 14 postboard 1BG against Thalia/Wasteland is a bitch. Mother of Runes on top of that) requires the rollback to 5 Fetches/2 U.Sea/2 Volcanic/4 Gemstone imo considering that, depending on the Swamps return in place of the 7th fetch, you have 4 iffy lands for your starting grip to contain. I doubt this is acceptable. As D&T is cooling down atm and people began to cut down stifles and Wastelands for the Treasure Cruises, I'm not convinced a second green land is required. I can see the beauty of Bayou providing a combo-color unlike Tropical Island, but I have not made up my mind which one I would prefer in the end. I will test 2 U.Sea/2. Volcanic/1 Bayou/1 Tropical MB with 4 Decay in the Sideboard over the weekend and see how it goes.

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Now that I'm thinking of it, I could just go back to Basic Swamp and play Bayou over Tropical in the sideboard since Tropical isn't really needed. I disagree on the absurdity FWIW, the match-ups in which green is used Wasteland isn't prevalent.

For reference:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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I agree, I just don't know if I want to flop the numbers on Swarms/Needles. It's a metagame call. I really like the list I posted above.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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Isn't it a pretty big deal that Volcanic + Bayou can't cast Decay though? I have never played 4c, 13+1 and with an only fetch base, so I wouldn't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Isn't it a pretty big deal that Volcanic + Bayou can't cast Decay though? I have never played 4c, 13+1 and with an only fetch base, so I wouldn't know for sure.

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Well, among other opinions one I'd like to know (apart from yours Lem of course)!
a) Bahamut, which current manabase are you currently running in your TES build?
b) What do you think about those latests developed ManaBase builds? for example for me that Byant manabase some posts above is nonsense.

I really fear not having Gemstone in my TES build... and I really don't mind the context of the colors TES has OR the context of the metagame, for me having polivalent lands is the one of the main matters in any TES build, and sure for me even U.Sea or V.Island are not polivalent lands, I prefer not talking about Bayou, basics or Tropical, not even as a 13th land...

I remember your latest build which consists in 4I.T. 3B.Wish plus EtW main not sure about 3 Discard or Silence, I think full discard. and 13 lands long time ago...

For me is simple:
If running Xantids, Gemstone is a must if you run 12 or 13 lands
if running A.D. you can consider play 13 Lands 8 fetches 3 U.Sea 2 Volcanic. and Trpical from side.
I prefer anyway 12 lands main full of I.T. and Trpical in side - still 7 Protection plus full of Decay.

@Peli

The oddity about Tropical is that it adds nothing to your combo which leaves you in an awkward spot if you fetch for it just to cast Xantid against High Tide or S&T, which isn't quite the case with Bayou. If this fact outweights the issue of not being able to cast cantrip

Soo after many struggles of losing games due to not finding a tutor. I am finally switching from ANT to TES. Is there any updated info I should know?

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Originally Posted by culby218

Soo after many struggles of losing games due to not finding a tutor. I am finally switching from ANT to TES. Is there any updated info I should know?

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"Updated" in terms of new testing results for Bayou vs Tropical since the last posts or about stuff/switches we discussed within the last 6 or so pages and you want Feedback for?

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Well, among other opinions one I'd like to know (apart from yours Lem of course)!
a) Bahamut, which current manabase are you currently running in your TES build?
b) What do you think about those latests developed ManaBase builds? for example for me that Byant manabase some posts above is nonsense.

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I run a pretty old school list with 4 Duress 3 Silence and I'm still playing 2 AdN. I think the above build looks very strong. it's not the first time people have ran 3c TES with a fetch base. I wouldn't play the basic Swamp or 4 Wish 3 Tutor though.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

"Updated" in terms of new testing results for Bayou vs Tropical since the last posts or about stuff/switches we discussed within the last 6 or so pages and you want Feedback for?

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I am interested in the results of the testing. I have read alot of the updates about the switches, but I didn't see any results whether the Bayou move was a success or failure. Is there anyone who is running the list @ Worcester?

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Originally Posted by culby218

I am interested in the results of the testing. I have read alot of the updates about the switches, but I didn't see any results whether the Bayou move was a success or failure. Is there anyone who is running the list @ Worcester?

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I had no time to test Bayou vs. Tropical enough to dare dropping a line on the topic (blame Sarah and my two projects @ work atm :P). Maybe one of the other regulars in the thread had the chance to test those and help you out (Thinking of Bryant and Max).

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I run a pretty old school list with 4 Duress 3 Silence and I'm still playing 2 AdN. I think the above build looks very strong. it's not the first time people have ran 3c TES with a fetch base. I wouldn't play the basic Swamp or 4 Wish 3 Tutor though.

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Sounds like a mid-2013 throwback :P

What does your field look like to be able to still run Silence and no Therapies to support EtW?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I had no time to test Bayou vs. Tropical enough to dare dropping a line on the topic (blame Sarah and my two projects @ work atm :P). Maybe one of the other regulars in the thread had the chance to test those and help you out (Thinking of Bryant and Max).

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My deck has pieces in the mail getting signed. I haven't had time, but I'm 100% on Bayou over Tropical.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sounds like a mid-2013 throwback :P

What does your field look like to be able to still run Silence and no Therapies to support EtW?

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I feel like the fields I play in are just extremely random. I'd say there's an above average amount of (storm) combo, and probably a below average amount of decks like D&T that run hatebears. There's also much more tempo than Miracles. I have lost tournaments to getting in that one situation where you have to guess your Therapy, and if that opponent is playing random cards in a random metagame, that just really really sucks.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I feel like the fields I play in are just extremely random. I'd say there's an above average amount of (storm) combo, and probably a below average amount of decks like D&T that run hatebears. There's also much more tempo than Miracles. I have lost tournaments to getting in that one situation where you have to guess your Therapy, and if that opponent is playing random cards in a random metagame, that just really really sucks.

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D&T is not my point in regards to hatebears as I mentioned in Nov '13 which made me starting to test all-discard, but the combination of Hatebears with counters/discard like in UWR Delver, Deathblade, UW Stoneblade, UWB Esperblade and via splash, even in Shardless BUG. Against every combination of discard+counter or counter+hatebear, Silences are plain bad and I was curious as I have not seen the trend of dual-angle-disruption reverse. I still like my black Ancestral Recall :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

D&T is not my point in regards to hatebears as I mentioned in Nov '13 which made me starting to test all-discard, but the combination of Hatebears with counters/discard like in UWR Delver, Deathblade, UW Stoneblade, UWB Esperblade and via splash, even in Shardless BUG. Against every combination of discard+counter or counter+hatebear, Silences are plain bad and I was curious as I have not seen the trend of dual-angle-disruption reverse. I still like my black Ancestral Recall :)

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I should make clear that I don't systematically test TES or keep good track of the metagame over here. I just occasionally attend tournaments in a bunch of different places in the Netherlands. I can say that, although something like UWR Delver with Cannonist scares the hell out of me, I can't remember the last time I met anything like that. Actually, I played against something that boarded in Meddling Mages (but it wasn't quite tempo), but I think he named Tendrils with it...

Most people seem to play UGR Delver here, and although Therapy is useful in that matchup to improve the EtW plan, I think Silence is more important. I also very much like having Silence to improve my combo and Ichorid matchups, since I'll most likely meet at least one of those in any given event. If I were to go to some Legacy GP, I think I'd play Therapy over Silence too.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Bayou talk.

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I picked up TES a couple nights ago and ran it through a daily, running the newer configs, 13 land main, Bayou in the side. I choose to forgo Swamp and a couple fetches for 3 Gemstone Mines, the idea being that with 3 I'm less likely to draw multiples in control matches, but if I have to fetch the Island I could at least fire off anything I wanted after the cantrip. I also just enjoy having a lot of lands that aren't stifle-able and in control matchups I like having a lot of IMS from lands since Rite of Flame can't quite compete with Cabal Ritual in lategame mana generation (barring some luck/Infernal Tutors). I was initially drawn away from Swamp because its miserable to open with, and pretty much the worst land in a non-wasteland matchup. During the daily, though, I ran into a Delver list which found room for wasteland in it's cruise shell and pretty much lost a game because I had no Basic Swamp, though. Sure showed me, I guess. 12 lands was the standard in TES for a while, so I guess if the 13th and sb 14th land can't fire off cantrips, its likely not the end of the world because those hands postboard or post-13th land config wouldnt have had a blue source anyway, they'd have the Tutor/Ponder/Mox you'd otherwise have in that slot, and the latter is as much a mulligan as it is a blue source anyway. Something like this is probably just fine:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest/Gemstone Mine (adjust to taste and control/stifle density)
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

1 Bayou (sb, never really cared that it wasn't a blue source as stated above, it's also nice to just have more black sources against Daze/Control decks).

The only other point I'd want to bring up is how awkward the current sb feels. Using this as an example:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre

While this list can wallop the Griselbrand/Counterbalance DTBs, it feels lackluster in other matchups. In the list I ran this weekend, I split 2 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapy in the main, just because with no Chain/Seize in the board, Duress is abysmal in DnT/Elves or Burn and I'm just not that big a fan of Abrupt Decay (pretty sure you just fold to Ruric Thar/Eidolon, considering how painful it'd be to Wish for Snare, though you can Decay the latter). Against control, I'm also considering boarding out 1 discard to make room for Decay/Needles and also so that I can actually Wish for protection. I don't know if this inconvenient options for boarding will actually catch up to the deck in the form of losing matches, but I wonder if something like 3-color with 3 Needles+3 Pyroblast wouldn't be better, if nothing else, because it conserves 3 slots in the sb.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I should make clear that I don't systematically test TES or keep good track of the metagame over here. I just occasionally attend tournaments in a bunch of different places in the Netherlands. I can say that, although something like UWR Delver with Cannonist scares the hell out of me, I can't remember the last time I met anything like that. Actually, I played against something that boarded in Meddling Mages (but it wasn't quite tempo), but I think he named Tendrils with it...

Most people seem to play UGR Delver here, and although Therapy is useful in that matchup to improve the EtW plan, I think Silence is more important. I also very much like having Silence to improve my combo and Ichorid matchups, since I'll most likely meet at least one of those in any given event. If I were to go to some Legacy GP, I think I'd play Therapy over Silence too.

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Systematic tests devour hours, which is the reason, I can not afford to do these because of every switch made.

Deathblade gave me headaches during BOM 8. T1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Meddling Mage, turn 3 Snapcaster + Thoughtseize all with FoW backup is close to unbeatable for storm. Even UWR Delver was tough because of Flusterstorm, Canonist and Meddling Mage postboard but not as disgusting as the trinity of discard, counter and hatebears.


Edit:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

The only other point I'd want to bring up is how awkward the current sb feels. Using this as an example:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre

While this list can wallop the Griselbrand/Counterbalance DTBs, it feels lackluster in other matchups. In the list I ran this weekend, I split 2 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapy in the main, just because with no Chain/Seize in the board, Duress is abysmal in DnT/Elves or Burn and I'm just not that big a fan of Abrupt Decay (pretty sure you just fold to Ruric Thar/Eidolon, considering how painful it'd be to Wish for Snare, though you can Decay the latter). Against control, I'm also considering boarding out 1 discard to make room for Decay/Needles and also so that I can actually Wish for protection. I don't know if this inconvenient options for boarding will actually catch up to the deck in the form of losing matches, but I wonder if something like 3-color with 3 Needles+3 Pyroblast wouldn't be better, if nothing else, because it conserves 3 slots in the sb.

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Yeah, Duress is bad against D&T, that's why I remove my 2 MB Duress for the SB Land and Thoughtseize as I still have Massacre to sweep the board. Ruric is a bitch to handle anyways if it comes down before you can combo and I can't see us boarding CoV just for speculation of having it in our Hand if he enters the field. I rather try to discard Natrual Order in this matchup and race the pointy eared ambush. In terms of burn you can speculate for Pyrostaric Pillar coming from their SB and remove parts of the discard for Decays and the Infernal. I'm not sure CoV is needed atm :/

Recently just started playing this deck and I was wondering of the third Abrupt Decay is really necessary in the sideboard, I feel like a chain of vapor or Grapeshot is a better choice to play.

When you are going to sideboard in the land, do you want to increase the land count or hit a fetch land?

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Recently just started playing this deck and I was wondering of the third Abrupt Decay is really necessary in the sideboard, I feel like a chain of vapor or Grapeshot is a better choice to play.

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If in your meta has a lot of hate that involves the like of Thalia, Canonist, Teeg, Cage, Leyine of Sanctity and other permanent hates that has 4cc or greater, sure thing it is great to see that extra vapor in the SB (Grapeshot in the case of creatures).

The main reason why AD is there is because of the unbridled attendance of counterbalance users.


@Howishotgun
Bring in the Bayou together with the ADs or Xantids. The current configuration of TES doesn't carry any rainbow lands anymore.

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Originally Posted by Howishotgun

When you are going to sideboard in the land, do you want to increase the land count or hit a fetch land?

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You side in the SB Tropical/Bayou to increase the land density in longer games (Removing Moxen), against Tempo (Stilfe/Wasteland) and for matchups in which you want to also side in the Decays/Xantids.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Recently just started playing this deck and I was wondering of the third Abrupt Decay is really necessary in the sideboard, I feel like a chain of vapor or Grapeshot is a better choice to play.

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The moment you play against Chalice or Counterbalance and not have at least 3 Decays would be the moment you regret putting chains/Grapeshot into your SB. With the current number of Miracles in Europe atm having 3 Decays is justified.

CoV is a tool against Thalia, Eidolon, Ruric That or Leyline of Sanctity, but between Massacre and Vapor Snag plus the fact that Leyline vanished and D&T/Burn can be simply overwhelmed by speed, siding in stuff like CoV isn't a neccessarity. Grapeshots value was waning since the hatebear to beat wasn't named Gaddock Teeg anymore, but Meddling Mage and Ethersworn Canonist took it's place. Unless the trend is reversing, I'm sure Massacre serves you better than Grapeshot.


PS: Dear Folks, how relevant has the Void Snare/SB Discard/SB Business spell of choice been for you in the last months?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

PS: Dear Folks, how relevant has the Void Snare/SB Discard/SB Business spell of choice been for you in the last months?

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I think Void Snare is a necessary spell without Chains/Grapeshot. I haven't been impressed by the sideboard discard spell in quite some time (It's worth noting, I end up shaving a Therapy when siding against Miracles to create a sideboard discard spell - Duress hitting anything on turn one is more valuable in this match-up) and is this business spell Infernal/Cruise? The last few times I've played TES, I used the Tutor in the sideboard more than once each event - Granted, it's been a month since I've cast Dark Ritual. I hope my cards arrive back to me soon (I sent out stuff to get signed)!

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I think Void Snare is a necessary spell without Chains/Grapeshot. I haven't been impressed by the sideboard discard spell in quite some time (It's worth noting, I end up shaving a Therapy when siding against Miracles to create a sideboard discard spell - Duress hitting anything on turn one is more valuable in this match-up) and is this business spell Infernal/Cruise? The last few times I've played TES, I used the Tutor in the sideboard more than once each event - Granted, it's been a month since I've cast Dark Ritual. I hope my cards arrive back to me soon (I sent out stuff to get signed)!

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I know you are stripped from your cards atm and that you cutted the SB discard. I just thought about it being time to take a closer look at the SB once more and see if we still need all cards or if they are still good enough and decided to ask around :)

The point about Void Snare brought up lately of being maybe too mana/spell intense to handle certain hate like Ruric Thar or Eidolon made me thinking about the naked number of times I really wished for Snare in the last months, compared to siding it in against D&T or Burn to replace the 2 MB Duresses of mine. Then I read Rodrigos report about his lost win-and-in the previous weekend against Burn and pondered if I don't want to have CoV back in my board, so I was looking for input for my Brainstorming.

I named it the "SB Business spell" as I know we have people in the forum not running either IT or TC in that place but Bribery, Dim.Ret. or other stuff and I want to hear their thoughts as well. Personally, the TC-plan is a fine one even if I have to ask myself if I can abuse it nearly as good as most of the upcoming Delver decks and if it isn't kinda redundant with PIF (my tests so far say no due to available mana, but who knows).

Long time lurker here. I've been testing Bryant's latest list (with Trop instead of Bayou) as prep for GPNJ. I have played a ton against Delver decks running Treasure Cruise and wondering if a Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard is worth packing.

I am an advanced beginner with the deck so take that into consideration. I've been 40-60 in my games against cruise decks. I expect a ton of them in New Jersey.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

No.

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Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker

Long time lurker here. I've been testing Bryant's latest list (with Trop instead of Bayou) as prep for GPNJ. I have played a ton against Delver decks running Treasure Cruise and wondering if a Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard is worth packing.

I am an advanced beginner with the deck so take that into consideration. I've been 40-60 in my games against cruise decks. I expect a ton of them in New Jersey.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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In short: you cannot afford to fight treasure cruise and need to get going before they burry you with the cardadvantage. Fortunately running TC caused Delver to reduce their Spell Pierces, Stifles and Wastelands a bit, which is fine for your gameplan of dumping Goblins quickly.

Edit: if you want some radical solution for Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Treasure Cruise, Dredge, Reanimator, ANT, etc. try Planar Void

Is anyone playing at Eternal Weekend? I have been getting my reps in with TES for SCG Columbus. I must say The Bayou is def the way to go.

with additional lands in the sideboard this deck gets the potential to fight in the long game, i like it.
Sounds like a Belcher-ish Maindeck with an transformation Sideboard into a Stormdeck like Ant (we are slowly getting there)

Reminds me at my Ant Deck with 2 Ad Nauseam in order to execute the combo on Turn 1-2 more often.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

with additional lands in the sideboard this deck gets the potential to fight in the long game, i like it.
Sounds like a Belcher-ish Maindeck with an transformation Sideboard into a Stormdeck like Ant (we are slowly getting there)

Reminds me at my Ant Deck with 2 Ad Nauseam in order to execute the combo on Turn 1-2 more often.

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It was ever just a question of Belcher-Potential vs. Lategame Power with the respective disadvantages of either running "bad" cards like Moxen/RoF on one side of the spectrum and mediocre Ad Nauseams/graveyard dependency on the other., as you know. Maybe WotC does us at some point the favor of printing a card that finally melts both decks together.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It was ever just a question of Belcher-Potential vs. Lategame Power with the respective disadvantages of either running "bad" cards like Moxen/RoF on one side of the spectrum and mediocre Ad Nauseams/graveyard dependency on the other., as you know. Maybe WotC does us at some point the favor of printing a card that finally melts both decks together.

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They could give us back mind's desire >>

That can happen, right?

Though, this Khan's block is designed a lot like Alara, and we got Ad Nauseam in Alara... I'm willing to hope we get something cool

Hello Guys!

I picked the deck in the middle of the present year and been playing monthly legacy events with it since then.
I run the list from 8/5/14 (except I run 1 of each blue fetches) and I've been reading this thread since the day I picked the deck, looking for improvements.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

PS: Dear Folks, how relevant has the Void Snare/SB Discard/SB Business spell of choice been for you in the last months?

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Personally, I've used Void Snare as a 3rd CoV against Burn decks. I still both CoVs, not sure if I should, since there's no more D&T in my metagame, but sometimes I run into some random Bant decks that run both Thalia and Gaddok (and maybe Canonist),
Besides that, I rarely tutor for Void Snare, but if I would cut CoVs, I'd keep it in the SB.

About the Discard spell, I rarely use it. Mainly in longer games against counter-heavy decks, when I have a second tutor and no other discard spells in hand. We might have a slot here. What would go in that slot?

My SB Busines spell is IT, and I'm 100% with Bryant here. It's a must and won me many games.


My main concernment is about Bayou x Tropical. Bryant said he is 100% sure about that change, Why's that, and why we're considering moving it to the sideboard, again?
Another land-issue, what about the basics? I've tested them online and got in some weird situatins where I could've won if I had another land (rainbow or any dual-land). I really like Gemstone (I know they suck) and I really need someone to evaluate the ups and downs of adding more fetches/basics instead of the full set of Gemstones.

Btw, this is my first post in this thread, probably I'll be more active and willing to improve the deck from now on. Hope you like my contribuitions! (:

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

Hello Guys!

I picked the deck in the middle of the present year and been playing monthly legacy events with it since then.

I run the list from 8/5/14 (except I run 1 of each blue fetches) and I've been reading this thread since the day I picked the deck, looking for improvements.

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Welcome on board :)

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

Personally, I've used Void Snare as a 3rd CoV against Burn decks. I still both CoVs, not sure if I should, since there's no more D&T in my metagame, but sometimes I run into some random Bant decks that run both Thalia and Gaddok (and maybe Canonist),
Besides that, I rarely tutor for Void Snare, but if I would cut CoVs, I'd keep it in the SB.

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Boarding the VS together without CoVs is natural against Burn, but unless the number of burn decks, Gaddock Teegs and Leylines notable increases, I always have a tough time to justify these CoVs in my board even if I like the application for storm chains and Safety net character against random stuff like Gaddock Teeg/Ruric Thar. I see the card more relevant for ANT to deal with graveyard hate. If we look at CoV for mainly handling creatures (Ruric aside) it could be a Disfigure instead ;)

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

About the Discard spell, I rarely use it. Mainly in longer games against counter-heavy decks, when I have a second tutor and no other discard spells in hand. We might have a slot here. What would go in that slot?

My SB Busines spell is IT, and I'm 100% with Bryant here. It's a must and won me many games.

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Both topics above are actually tied together. If you run the SB discard you have virtual 10 discard spells at hand IF you need them (aka longer matches against control) compared to the 7 mainboard discard spells Bryant runs. For the lack of these 3 Virtual discard spells on demand and 1 MB Tutor for your 6-7 mana Belcher mode, you gain 3 more outs to access Ad Nauseam for 9 mana or an extra EtW-stormcount for a total of 8 mana. It's a matter of preference and deck ideology.

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

My main concernment is about Bayou x Tropical. Bryant said he is 100% sure about that change, Why's that, and why we're considering moving it to the sideboard, again?

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The Main advantage of Bayou, especially in combination with Xantid Swarm and Volcanic Island is that you can play your turn 1 Xantid and still have BR initial mana for your turn 2 protected combo to cast your RoFs, DRS, ITs and Wishes. If you have to cast your Xantid off Tropical, this wouldn't be possible without a Petal in addition to your 2 lands. Take notice that Bayou + Volcanic produces all 4 colors in the deck and still enables to chain cantrips (Brainstorm/Ponder/Probe) into protection (Xantid/Duress/Therapy). The "only" but significant downside is that the Bayou is a bad land to have in your opener in combination with cantrips. Atm I have not made up my mind on which I prefer.

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

Another land-issue, what about the basics? I've tested them online and got in some weird situatins where I could've won if I had another land (rainbow or any dual-land). I really like Gemstone (I know they suck) and I really need someone to evaluate the ups and downs of adding more fetches/basics instead of the full set of Gemstones.

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This isn't a new topic. I refuse to run the Basics for just this problem of color-restricting me for early kills and that they disrupt double Red (Wish->EtW) playlines as well as double black's (Duress->Ritual). Maybe if you rely less on the SB EtW due to prefering to burn your Wishes (Pun intended) for infernal instead and aim for longer games, you can get away with Basics

I don't have time at the moment to really elaborate on all of my choices, but thought it might still be helpful to post my current list up. I haven't missed the Xantid Swarm and I feel like the 3 Abrupt Decay are necessary due to the quantity of Miracles in Europe. If I was finding room for Xantid Swarm, I would also be swapping Tropical Island for Bayou.

//Card Draw and Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

//Tutors (7)
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

//Targets (2)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

//Disruption (7)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

//Ritual Mana (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

//Artifact Mana (11)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

//Land (13)
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Boarding the VS together without CoVs is natural against Burn, but unless the number of burn decks, Gaddock Teegs and Leylines notable increases, I always have a tough time to justify these CoVs in my board even if I like the application for storm chains and Safety net character against random stuff like Gaddock Teeg/Ruric Thar. I see the card more relevant for ANT to deal with graveyard hate. If we look at CoV for mainly handling creatures (Ruric aside) it could be a Disfigure instead ;)

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Yeah, a lot of decks in my meta run Chalice/Trinisphere (I know CoV sucks against Chalice, but most of times people Chalice for 0), Thalias and some random hate, like Thorn of Amethyst or Null Rod. That's why I still run Chain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Both topics above are actually tied together. If you run the SB discard you have virtual 10 discard spells at hand IF you need them (aka longer matches against control) compared to the 7 mainboard discard spells Bryant runs. For the lack of these 3 Virtual discard spells on demand and 1 MB Tutor for your 6-7 mana Belcher mode, you gain 3 more outs to access Ad Nauseam for 9 mana or an extra EtW-stormcount for a total of 8 mana. It's a matter of preference and deck ideology.

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Yah, but vs Miracles or against deck that I really want discards I can side out 1x Duress or Therapy to get that 3 virtual discard spells on demand. Do you think this strategy works?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The Main advantage of Bayou, especially in combination with Xantid Swarm and Volcanic Island is that you can play your turn 1 Xantid and still have BR initial mana for your turn 2 protected combo to cast your RoFs, DRS, ITs and Wishes. If you have to cast your Xantid off Tropical, this wouldn't be possible without a Petal in addition to your 2 lands. Take notice that Bayou + Volcanic produces all 4 colors in the deck and still enables to chain cantrips (Brainstorm/Ponder/Probe) into protection (Xantid/Duress/Therapy). The "only" but significant downside is that the Bayou is a bad land to have in your opener in combination with cantrips. Atm I have not made up my mind on which I prefer.

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Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, color screwing. But since you'll only board Bayou in when you need a green source (and probably will take of a Mox for that slot) you wont be color screwed alot.
And what about the last land in the Sideboard? Why's that and why is it that usefull? I never played with 12 lands, that's why I ask (I started playin in the current configuration, exactly the same list as this thread's first post).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This isn't a new topic. I refuse to run the Basics for just this problem of color-restricting me for early kills and that they disrupt double Red (Wish->EtW) playlines as well as double black's (Duress->Ritual). Maybe if you rely less on the SB EtW due to prefering to burn your Wishes (Pun intended) for infernal instead and aim for longer games, you can get away with Basics

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I like the utopia of not getting blown up by wasteland, but basics sucks when they're in your starter hand. I really need someone to convince me about that, haha.

Say you guys have two fetches and a duress in hand, do you open up with the sea or play it safe with getting the swamp if you can? I just picked the deck up, I've played other storm variants throughout my vast years of playing mostly vintage but i know TES is a different breed, I really wish Mind's Desire would come off the list but they need to ban hightide and crap like that in order for it to not get broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PopyMartins

Yeah, a lot of decks in my meta run Chalice/Trinisphere (I know CoV sucks against Chalice, but most of times people Chalice for 0), Thalias and some random hate, like Thorn of Amethyst or Null Rod. That's why I still run Chain.

Quote:

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the deck can get around Chalice @ 0. Chalice @ 1 is really a problem and Chain can't solve that.

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Yah, but vs Miracles or against deck that I really want discards I can side out 1x Duress or Therapy to get that 3 virtual discard spells on demand. Do you think this strategy works?

Quote:

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the SB discard and the SB Infernal are simply switched out if you compare Bryant's and my take. Depends on what you prefer game 1. For G2 & G3 you can switch on demand. It's really not a big deal

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Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, color screwing. But since you'll only board Bayou in when you need a green source (and probably will take of a Mox for that slot) you wont be color screwed alot.
And what about the last land in the Sideboard? Why's that and why is it that usefull? I never played with 12 lands, that's why I ask (I started playin in the current configuration, exactly the same list as this thread's first post).

Quote:

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the SB land is mainly for Stifle/Wasteland matchups and to support Decay/Xantid

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I like the utopia of not getting blown up by wasteland, but basics sucks when they're in your starter hand. I really need someone to convince me about that, haha.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Say you guys have two fetches and a duress in hand, do you open up with the sea or play it safe with getting the swamp if you can? I just picked the deck up, I've played other storm variants throughout my vast years of playing mostly vintage but i know TES is a different breed, I really wish Mind's Desire would come off the list but they need to ban hightide and crap like that in order for it to not get broken.

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This depends a lot in your hand. If you can combo turn 2 and don't need to cantrip turn 1, fetching for U.Sea to fire off the Duress is fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

They could give us back mind's desire >>

That can happen, right?

Though, this Khan's block is designed a lot like Alara, and we got Ad Nauseam in Alara... I'm willing to hope we get something cool

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The Delve mechanic makes my head spin of possibilities here. 7BBB Bargain, 5BB Y.Will, 1B Dark Ritual, 2B Hymn to Tourach, 4B Demonic ... All can happen.

But tbh after the impact of TC & DTT i can see WotC chopping possible other Delve bombs they have on their desk for the remaining block

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The Delve mechanic makes my head spin of possibilities here. 7BBB Bargain, 5BB Y.Will, 1B Dark Ritual, 2B Hymn to Tourach, 4B Demonic ... All can happen.

But tbh after the impact of TC & DTT i can see WotC chopping possible other Delve bombs they have on their desk for the remaining block

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That will be an interesting question to put to Maro after the set is complete. "What did you cut in light of TC's stronger than expected showing in older formats?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

That will be an interesting question to put to Maro after the set is complete. "What did you cut in light of TC's stronger than expected showing in older formats?"

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It's not interresting, it's pointless. You can't expect an honest answer after the Return to Ravnica Block mechanic and Guild-Leader hilarity

Hey Ya'll,

I'm loving this thread and am quite grateful for the time you put into it. I'm learning storm, maybe 40 games under my belt, but last night I was real tired and made some serious faux pas. I played a couple rituals and what not with no resistance only to realize I miscounted. It's quite embarrassing but I would feel better if any of you share your idiotic plays. Maybe I can learn something from your mistakes :P

Thanks!