[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Well I don't think playing no permanents is necessarily the way to go. Candelabras aren't even that bad if you hold off on casting them (a very common situation vs abrupt decay) so bouncing them shouldn't be that big of a deal. Sensei's Divining Top is Sensei's Divining Top (plus bouncing it isn't even that bad, though I can imagine situations having to cast it again would be really invasive or difficult).

I was disappointed with the results against eldrazi too, especially because the main reason I wanted to try and include it was as a way to improve the eldrazi matchup while having applications in many others without having to splash. I was finding that I was having color constraints with a 3 color splash way more often than I was comfortable with. I may try going with some number of Moment's Peace but that card feels too narrow to really be a 4-of.

You can look up Devastation Tide Turbo Eldrazi/12-post and you will see some really early pages of this thread where Rock Lee is playing lists with 4 tides and talking about how good they are.

My list isn't really refined, it's pretty much a standard UG 12-post except with Tides and without needles. Also messing with the idea of going back to 4 Show and Tells.

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My thoughts as well. A nice all-around card that can shore up the eldrazi match-up, without having to splash for another color (which i think is 2 greedy - especially when i'm getting mana screwed running "only" 2 colors - it's basically three colors if you count colorless...) . Sadly, after more testing and more disappointments i think devastation tide falls into the fun2play category. I played a few more games where i thought the card would prove its worth, but instead it just postponed the inevitable. Still I don't want to dismiss the card altogether because i may be misplaying it.

Lately I'm always playing 2-3 MPs in the board. Don't forget that it can help against stuff like burn as well. The last live tournament i played i won against burn mostly because MPs were extremely useful against his monasteries and guides.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Lately I'm always playing 2-3 MPs in the board. Don't forget that it can help against stuff like burn as well. The last live tournament i played i won against burn mostly because MPs were extremely useful against his monasteries and guides.

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I used to play Moment's Peace in Gw for Eldrazi but cut it when I went to a build with StP. I found MP rather unimpressive against Burn because it requires holding up mana and they don't always have a lot of creatures to fog. Do you think your experiences with it are typical, or maybe that the card is better in a U/G build?

Hi guys

I need your help/knowledge about the Delver Matchup which i have problems.

MD:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Show and Tell
3 Trickbind
2 Repeal
2 Moment's Peace

4 Expedition Map
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle

SB:
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Surgicial Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip

I board as following:
-3 Trickbind
-2 Repeal
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Expedition Map

+3 Engineered Explosives
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Flusterstorm

Sometimes i don't like the Moment's Peace because of DRS, otherwise it's great.
How do you approach yourself to this matchup? What is your way to go?
I know it also depends on the Delvervariant (Stifle yes/no, Discard yes/no).

Regards and thanks

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Originally Posted by k_omega

I used to play Moment's Peace in Gw for Eldrazi but cut it when I went to a build with StP. I found MP rather unimpressive against Burn because it requires holding up mana and they don't always have a lot of creatures to fog. Do you think your experiences with it are typical, or maybe that the card is better in a U/G build?

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I was playing a build with only 6 counters in the board. So i wanted to board in as much help as i could. I agree it's situational and depends if they have creatures on the board or not. Nevertheless, MP is much better against burn then cards like candelabra, map (if you are still playing them...) etc. ... When they do have creatures on the board MP can save a whole lotta life. Against burn I usually keep mana up anyway (for crop, counter, etc.), when you see they tapped out (using burn spells to pump swiftspear) you can freely use MP and not get caught by lets say PoP. In general when I'm playing against burn, combo etc. i try to go real low on the mana curve and have as much instant responses as possible shaving off all the slow stuff and stuff that isn't useful in a particular match-up (against burn i keep ulamog and emrakul, droping ugins, candles,... and even titans and SnTs - depending on the SB options available to me in a particular build).

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Originally Posted by diablo4488

Hi guys

I need your help/knowledge about the Delver Matchup which i have problems.

Sometimes i don't like the Moment's Peace because of DRS, otherwise it's great.
How do you approach yourself to this matchup? What is your way to go?
I know it also depends on the Delvervariant (Stifle yes/no, Discard yes/no).

Regards and thanks

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I never board out repeal against delver. Repeal is solid against delver. When i was running EE i never used them against stifle variants, (3 EE might be an overkill in general - i never ran more than 2). Don't forget to activate MP after it is targeted by DRS. Sometimes you want to play MP on their upkeep (after delver trigger, especially if they put a brainstorm on the stack). Keep bojuka and exile their graveyard b4 they cast Gurmag Angler. Bojuka is also good against threshold. Can buy you a lot of time. I usually always use trickbind on their delver triggers if they set it up.
Seems you have a lot of maps - i don't play maps anymore they are 2 slow, suck against combo and are vulnerable against chalice, stifle, etc. I would definitely go down on maps and up on repeal in your build.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I never board out repeal against delver. Repeal is solid against delver. When i was running EE i never used them against stifle variants, (3 EE might be an overkill in general - i never ran more than 2). Don't forget to activate MP after it is targeted by DRS. Sometimes you want to play MP on their upkeep (after delver trigger, especially if they put a brainstorm on the stack). Keep bojuka and exile their graveyard b4 they cast Gurmag Angler. Bojuka is also good against threshold. Can buy you a lot of time. I usually always use trickbind on their delver triggers if they set it up.
Seems you have a lot of maps - i don't play maps anymore they are 2 slow, suck against combo and are vulnerable against chalice, stifle, etc. I would definitely go down on maps and up on repeal in your build.

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I run 3 EE also because of the higher amount of CotV (T1/2 on 1 just rapes the deck, as Stifle also do).
The mechanics with MP is clear.
Maps neither convinced me like you said...
What do you think about Carpet? I like it so much because it already gives you mana the turn you play it and gives you nice utility the whole game.
I will give your tips a try. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by diablo4488

Hi guys

I need your help/knowledge about the Delver Matchup which i have problems.

SB:
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Surgicial Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip

I board as following:
-3 Trickbind
-2 Repeal
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Expedition Map

+3 Engineered Explosives
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Flusterstorm

Sometimes i don't like the Moment's Peace because of DRS, otherwise it's great.
How do you approach yourself to this matchup? What is your way to go?
I know it also depends on the Delvervariant (Stifle yes/no, Discard yes/no).

Regards and thanks

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Problem is my approach is different for each version of Delver. My overall goal is to do everything I can to try to get at least one of my creatures going as quick as possible. This means trying to burn through their counters as much as possible, cannon fodder. My other approach is getting Boseiju out and enabling me to use Show and Tell to win. Last ditch effort is you Get titan out, and pull a glacial chasm to stabilize and build back up with glimmerposts. Hydroblast kills off Pyromancer. Essentially knowing what delver variant you're against is super crucial information.

Without dissecting your decklist, your real decent answers are Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Trickbind, Repeal, Bojuka Bog (depending on the version), Hydroblast (depending on the version) Cavern of Souls. If you are able to get any of your creatures out you should be able to win, typically their answer is Liliana if a creature gets on the board. I wouldnt side out Repeal ever, it's an answer for their creatures on the board and even a liliana if it's annoying you enough or will lock you out of a creature on the field. In B/U builds, I don't like Moment's Peace at all, feels too clunky and I rather run a counter or some other toolbox item.
-3 Maps, -2 Moment's Peace, +3 Engineers Explosives and +3 Flusterstorms. That would be my simple Sideboard with your current list.

Now, I have some suggestions and comments on your list. This build feels incomplete. It feels like you are trying to build up from a mono green version to the G/U version. I would suggest stay at the Mono green until you get a complete list that way you have much better matchups.

First off, 2 Cavern of Souls but you are only running Titan and Eldrazi. Why not just run another Vesuva for better toolbox ability?
No Karakas? Why not? This variant needs a way to recur Emrakul to win! Eternal Masters reprint made that sucker only 30 bucks! Sell or Trade that second Cavern and get a Karakas!
I've tried Moment's Peace and haven't liked it. If you run Glacial Chasm, that is your fog effect backed up by Glimmerpost.
Your only permanent removal is Ulamog, Emrakul, and Repeal. 4 cards in the entire deck to delay the opponent. This isn't enough in my opinion. You either run counter magic, being in blue, or mass removal to deal with the battlefield states.
You have no board wipe like answers. Run Ugin, Oblivion Stone, Terminus, or All is Dust. This helps against things like Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, or Death and Taxes who get a lot on the board.
Another decent removal+creature, World Breaker. Has a cast trigger which can't be stopped by delver typically and is great spot removal outside of running Swords to Plowshares.

I keep promoting my build because it seems to be working really well for my meta which is heavy Miracles, DnT, and Delver variants at the moment. Try running the Bant version and see how it plays out for you.

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Originally Posted by Skriger

Problem is my approach is different for each version of Delver. My overall goal is to do everything I can to try to get at least one of my creatures going as quick as possible. This means trying to burn through their counters as much as possible, cannon fodder. My other approach is getting Boseiju out and enabling me to use Show and Tell to win. Last ditch effort is you Get titan out, and pull a glacial chasm to stabilize and build back up with glimmerposts. Hydroblast kills off Pyromancer. Essentially knowing what delver variant you're against is super crucial information.

Without dissecting your decklist, your real decent answers are Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Trickbind, Repeal, Bojuka Bog (depending on the version), Hydroblast (depending on the version) Cavern of Souls. If you are able to get any of your creatures out you should be able to win, typically their answer is Liliana if a creature gets on the board. I wouldnt side out Repeal ever, it's an answer for their creatures on the board and even a liliana if it's annoying you enough or will lock you out of a creature on the field. In B/U builds, I don't like Moment's Peace at all, feels too clunky and I rather run a counter or some other toolbox item.
-3 Maps, -2 Moment's Peace, +3 Engineers Explosives and +3 Flusterstorms. That would be my simple Sideboard with your current list.

Now, I have some suggestions and comments on your list. This build feels incomplete. It feels like you are trying to build up from a mono green version to the G/U version. I would suggest stay at the Mono green until you get a complete list that way you have much better matchups.

First off, 2 Cavern of Souls but you are only running Titan and Eldrazi. Why not just run another Vesuva for better toolbox ability?
No Karakas? Why not? This variant needs a way to recur Emrakul to win! Eternal Masters reprint made that sucker only 30 bucks! Sell or Trade that second Cavern and get a Karakas!
I've tried Moment's Peace and haven't liked it. If you run Glacial Chasm, that is your fog effect backed up by Glimmerpost.
Your only permanent removal is Ulamog, Emrakul, and Repeal. 4 cards in the entire deck to delay the opponent. This isn't enough in my opinion. You either run counter magic, being in blue, or mass removal to deal with the battlefield states.
You have no board wipe like answers. Run Ugin, Oblivion Stone, Terminus, or All is Dust. This helps against things like Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, or Death and Taxes who get a lot on the board.
Another decent removal+creature, World Breaker. Has a cast trigger which can't be stopped by delver typically and is great spot removal outside of running Swords to Plowshares.

I keep promoting my build because it seems to be working really well for my meta which is heavy Miracles, DnT, and Delver variants at the moment. Try running the Bant version and see how it plays out for you.

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Thanks for the feedback!
Of course i play Karakas, just forgot it in the post :rolleyes:
For sure it depends on the Delver variant.

To the suggestions:
I personally don't like 2 Vesuva because they come in play tapped (already 6 lands do and 2 which don't produce mana).
Maybe i underestimate this card. I always love to topdeck a Cavern with Titan in Hand.
That is also the reason i don't like Boseju. I prefere to Crop EotT, they will counter it (if they don't do i'm also happy) and play S&T the next turn.

Do you think Glacial Chasm and Glimmerpost is enough MB?
I will add a sweeper instead of the MP's and give it a try.

Actually i don't want to change to another version like Bant or Mono G.
I prefere to stay with this build and tune it/learn it/make the right decisions depending on the gamestate.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by diablo4488

Thanks for the feedback!
Of course i play Karakas, just forgot it in the post :rolleyes:
For sure it depends on the Delver variant.

To the suggestions:
I personally don't like 2 Vesuva because they come in play tapped (already 6 lands do and 2 which don't produce mana).
Maybe i underestimate this card. I always love to topdeck a Cavern with Titan in Hand.
That is also the reason i don't like Boseju. I prefere to Crop EotT, they will counter it (if they don't do i'm also happy) and play S&T the next turn.

Do you think Glacial Chasm and Glimmerpost is enough MB?
I will add a sweeper instead of the MP's and give it a try.

Actually i don't want to change to another version like Bant or Mono G.
I prefere to stay with this build and tune it/learn it/make the right decisions depending on the gamestate.

Regards

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You can always try to Crop Rotation for it at a high cost, But a prime time pulling a glimmer followed by a glacial with some other locus lands on the field is a great move. Really need to keep in mind it's more of a control deck with a nifty ramp finisher than a ramp/combo deck. So a land coming into play tapped shouldn't be a huge issue as long as you have a decent way of controlling the battlefield.

Just remember these are my personal preferences which has worked well for me. I tend to like having a lot of ways of clearing the board then drop a creature for the win. Others like the control magic approach.

Oh Dudes i just had the perfect game against omni. i won both games of his SnT - g1 i put in omni and trickbind his emmy trigger. i played titan on my turn and fetched post+eye. on his turn i cropped into karakas and bounced his emmy and trickbind him again. on my turn i could fetch my emmy and win on the spot. G2 was similar. after i countered 3 SnTs i allow him to resolve the last one. By that time i managed to set up a similarly evil hand with trickbind, omni, titan and force. he goes for cunning wish into pyroblast targeting my omni. i force his pyro he flusters in response, i tap my top for a second force and counter the pyroblast. on my turn i draw kozilek with top he draws into ulamog - gg.

Another legacy event I was in today. Prize was a Mox Jet. Played my Bant list with a change to my sideboard and mainboard. I removed my 2nd Ugin, and replaced with Emrakul, Promised End. I wanted to see if it would help with my bad matchups. Sideboard I removed my ridiculous 2 Expedition Maps and placed 2 Thought-Knot Seers. This paid off very well as you will read in the notes.

Mainboard
4x Brainstorm
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
4x Primeval Titan
1x Savannah
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Show and Tell
2x Song of the Dryads
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vesuva
2x Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thought-Knot Seer

Link to deck @ TappedOut.net

Players: 15

Match 1: Bye

Match 2: Shardless BUG

Game 1: On the draw. Solid starter hand. Able to regulate the board with cloudpost really fast and drop Ugin, he counters. I follow up with a Emrakul, Promised End and he force of wills it. He has liliana, Shardless Agent, on the board. Emrakul cast trigger gives him an abrupt decay, I use liliana minus to kill his shardless, I then abrupt decay his liliana. He takes his turn and draws into a land, he has no cards in hand. I play out and drop ulamog target his lands and pass turn. He draws into another Shardless Agent, casts and gets a Ancestral vision. Then plays Brainstorm to fix it up, then passes. I attack in with ulamog, trigger goes into play and his deck is very thin and he is at 7 health. I have a karakas up which I bounce ulamog and recast, targeting his lands again and he scoops.

Game 2: -2 Candelabra, +2 Thought-Knot Seer; -2 SnT, +1 Swords, +1 Pithing Needle.
I mulligan to 6 and keep a good starter hand with Terminus and a brainstorm and a Top supported by a fetch, glimmerpost, cloudpost. Scry reveals Pithing Needle. He plays out and drops Deathrite. I take my turn, play out glimmer and play pithing needle calling liliana. I haven't seen any wastelands yet so I wasn't worried. I figured he might of been playing a version without them. He plays out a fetch and drops a ansetral vision. I play Cloudpost and play Top, it resolves! He starts building a board with a tarmogoyf and deathrite. I tuck the Terminus back in with brainstorm and end up clearing the board with it later on. I draw into 2 Thought-Knot Seers and cast them while his hand was empty. I then followed up with a Primeval titan and beat him with the Seers for match win.

Match 3: Turbo Depths

Game 1: Perfect setup hand with Divining top, terminus, crop rotation and supportive lands.
He has the play, turn 2 he gets into the north and a thespian's stage up and running. Turn 3 he enable Depths and creates Marit Lage. I had another Teminus tucked back with Top, I resolve it on his endstep since he main phased Marit Lage. I spin top and find my 3rd Terminus and a Song of the Dryad. I stacked Song of the Dryad and Terminus up front. He gets another Dark Depths on the field, I use Song of the Dryad to lock it down. He follows with a crop rotation and pulls his 3rd Dark Depths and enables it. I wipe him out with the 3rd Terminus I had tucked away. I pull a Vesuva and have a decent mana to possibly enable a Dark Depths manually so I chose to copy his and then start paying into it. That didn't go as planned when I pulled some more cloudpost and a primeval titan. My mana is now ready for Endless Emrakul, I resolve out the combo and win.

Game 2: -2 Candelabra, -1 Ugin, -2 Show and Tell; +3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Swords to Plowshare, +1 Pithing Needle.
He goes more disruptive and Duress me with a follow up Inquisition of Kozilek. I am able to get Pithing Needle calling Thespian's Stage, He goes hexmage route and enables a Marit lage, I use Swords to Plowshares to remove. I am not getting any Surgicals to remove dark depths. I was able to hold him off with hard casting primeval titan, pulling a karakas and cloudpost. I build cloudpost up after one combat primetime trigger and win the game by casting Emrakul, Aeons Torn.

I am now top point on standings.

Match 4: Death and Taxes, we do an automatic draw since we are in the top 4 automatically.

I go to eat and come back to find everyone wanted to split, so I walked away (Technically) the winner! and 200 dollars richer.
Really wish I could of played out the rest of my matches. There was another Turbo Depths player that made top 4 and a BUG Delver and JUND. It would of been interesting matchups.

Overall, I felt I got really good matchups and against people who were very unfamiliar with 12-post which worked to my advantage. It left them not knowing what good moves to do. My sideboard worked wonderfully in this event, Boseiju might come out. It helps against Force of will decks, getting out show and tell usually means a win for me if I drop a creature. Mindrakul is pretty slick! I casted him for 6 during that match, way underestimated his ability to turn a game. I think it's going to stay in my list. Song of the Dryads has really paid off every time I've casted it. It's the only cheap thing in my deck to deal with non creature cards which is very crucial and showed those colors against the turbo depths deck.

As always, comments and suggestions are always welcome!

Last Weekend i brought my UG 12-Post list the first time to a tournament.
Finished 2nd after 5 rounds swiss.
I made the proposed changes to the maindeck (see my signature):
-2 Moment's Peace
-1 Map
+2 All ist Dust
+1 Repeal

Round1: D&T (Recruiter build) 1-0
G1: T4 S&T into Titan
G2: Mull to 5, 3 turns no additional land...
G3: T4 All ist Dust into T6 Titan

The matchup is better then i thought (depends hard on D&T sideboard).

Round 2: UR Delver with Wasteland 2-0
G1: Price got me with no Crop in Hand...
G2: T5 S&T into Titan backed up with Flusterstorm
G3: Double EE for boardwipe gave me enough time

Really hard matchup. You have to go aggressive and risk some stuff.

Round 3: Colorless Eldrazi 3-0
G1: He mull to 5, me T3 S&T into Emrakul
G2: Overrun me with Mimic & Smasher
G3: T5 S&T after he taps out for Smasher (i knew he had Wail on his hand)

Again a hard matchup. Depends on TKS and your S&T.

Round 4: Burn 3-1
G1: He mulls to 5 and gets double goblin guide and fireblast...
G2: I grind it out properly with Crop on hand for the right turn for Chasm
G3: He's to fast.

Just take it ...

Round 5: Deathblade 4-1
G1: Grindy game but second Titan, after first gets plowed, sealed the deal
G2: Lingering Souls, Strix and Jitte with FOW backup was enough
G3: Again a grindy game. But as longer the game goes i feel more and more comfortable

One of the easier matchup. Best of his cards are Clique, TS and FOW. The rest is normally to slow.

Overall i'm really happy with the deck and was a lot of fun to play.
Thank you for all the tips in advance.
Map didn't convinced me and i think i will go down to 2.
One of your best ally is the ignorance of your opponent about the deck :)

Greetings (once again, I think); I'm back/finally here, and I'm looking for more feedback on my list after being brought back here by Skirger from Reddit.

Here's my List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gr-cloudpost/

For those who don't feel like clicking the link, here's my list as it currently is:

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Land (27)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
3x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
3x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Vesuva
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (10)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Veteran Explorer

Artifact (9)
3x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (8)
4x Crop Rotation
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Warping Wail

Sorcery (4)
1x Bonfire of the Damned
3x Green Sun's Zenith


Sideboard (15)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Krosan Grip
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Pyroblast
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Stronghold Gambit
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Warping Wail


Maybeboard (10)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos (Expensive)
1x Cursed Totem (Kinda narrow, but could be good in some metas)
1x Dark Depths (Alternate Wincons are decent)
1x Krosan Grip (Perhaps Sage should be a Grip, but probably not)
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Infect)
1x Stronghold Gambit (Red S&T against creature-light decks/reanimator; might be too cute, but I like it so far)
1x Sudden Shock (Anti-Tempo/Infect, but perhaps unneeded)
1x Sylvan Library (Redundant, but maybe good)
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Even more expensive)
1x Punishing Fire (With Groves, of course)
3x Grove of the Burnwillows (With Fires, of course)
1x Bonfire of the Damned (More? Maybe.)
1x Destructive Revelry (Suggested to me)
1x Hull Breach (Suggested by me as an alternative to the above suggestion)
1x Eidolon of the Great Revel (Suggested to me)
1x Explore (Suggested to me)
1x Grafdigger's Cage (Suggested to me; not sure I agree, but could be good)

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...I'm looking for feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by macosten

Greetings (once again, I think); I'm back/finally here, and I'm looking for more feedback on my list after being brought back here by Skirger from Reddit.

Here's my List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gr-cloudpost/

...I'm looking for feedback.

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Hey macosten!

Here is the changes I made. Also I changed it a little since Reddit converstation, but not much. I will answer your questions below as well.

Mainboard (60)

Land (26)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
2 Taiga
2 Vesuva
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Planeswalker (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (8)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Artifact (8)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (9)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Kozilek's Return
3 Punishing Fire

Sorcery (8)
3 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Explore
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

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Originally Posted by Macosten

I suppose I may as well ask about some of those choices you made - mostly asking for the reasoning behind these:
Why cut all of the maps for Explores? I could easily see cutting one (or perhaps two) for the difference in Explores, but I'm iffy on cutting all of them.
Why so many color-intensive cards? There are many times where I'll find myself with only one colorless source (though it's possible that, with more groves/red sources, those will be less common).
No Warping Wails? At all? It seems like such a flexible card, doing so many different things; it's great in a ton of matchups, and it's probably the card I'm most hesitant on going to zero on, so I'm (again) wondering what the reasoning here is.
Why [[Destructive Revelry]] over, say, [[Hull Breach]] or [[Krosan Grip]]? We don't really care about the damage and Split Second/only one colored mana symbol, so I'm wondering what the rationale is.
Eidolon seems pretty sweet, though again there's the issue of multiple colored symbols in a single card... I'll have to add it to the list of things to test, though. Hopefully Reanimator pushes Storm down for a while, since I feel it's easier to fight that than ANT. :p
Why the Grafdigger's Cage? It shuts off Zenith, and it doesn't seem much better than, say, another Surgical Extraction. I'm, again, wondering what the rationale is. Is it better than, say, Mindbreak Trap/Sphere of Resistance/Ensnaring Bridge?

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First off this list is building around Bonfire of the Damned with the typical cloudpost wincon with Emrakul.

Cutting Maps for explores. I've been testing without expedition map and honestly haven't missed them. Every so often they help but they just don't feel right, I also run 2 extra fetches in mine for more shuffling which is one of the major features of Expedition Map. The reasoning is the extra land drop. Running Bonfire of the Damned is going to be pricey if you want it to blow up a decently sized Tarmogoyf so the extra drops will come in handy. Plus your getting a card advantage for doing so.

Warping Wail has been somewhat of a miss for me. Works great against Death and Taxes for removal and can somewhat throw off a Storm player if they don't respond to it but then your feeding into their strategy. But running punishing fire and Bonfire, you don't need another removal card. I've always been on the edge with this one. Most non permanent spells you want to counter end up being instants so it just sits lonely in hand. This is just what I've noticed playing with it but you can try and see how it works for you.

At first I was in the intention of removal with an extra cost to them. I changed my mind and put Krosan Grip back to fight Omiscience, which will be a headache for you.

Eidolon will ruin a Storm players day. It also messes up a lot of other decks in Legacy, it's the reason why burn runs it. Mindbreak Trap does as well but you cannot use it as a regular counter in any other matches since most players wont get to 3 spells per main phase so it's a dead card in your hand since you have no mana to cast it. I personally want to be able to hard cast a Mindbreak trap if I must seems like you can easily have any other card and it would work better. You have potentially 7 mana sources to cast Eidolon which doesn't seem hard at all especially with so much land drop advantage and fetching.

Grafdigger's Cage does shut off GsZ which would be ran in Elves. It also shuts down reanimator and slows down Storm decks. Your GsZ will be useless against those matchups and you need to control the boardstate more than try to go faster than them (which you won't be able to) So you would be boarding out your GsZ for Grafdigger's Cage.

I took out Sneak attack and Stronghold Gambit because those are not strong. If you want to go the Show and Tell type route, build the G/U version. No need to try making the deck too many things. You want it to be great at one thing and not okay at everything.

I also removed Thespian's stage because the choice targets you would use it for mostly have ETB triggers. You want a copy of Bjouka bog, or a glimmerpost. Essentially you would only be changing it over once or twice per match. The best situation is if you have Eye of Ugin out and they try to blow it up. But usually I don't drop the Eye unless I know for a fact I can tutor with it as soon as possible so to not waste the resource. The only other advantage piece would be with Glacial Chasm and you don't have to sac a land but you restart the upkeep cost. Overall, Vesuva feels more stronger than a Stage, unless you put a dark depth in the deck,.

I hope this gave some insight towards a G/R build. Now I've only done some solitare type games and seems okay, I would still prefer White or Blue instead of Red but this is more to help you on the red build than what works best.

Ah, I suppose I should ask this, too: Eidolon or Pyrostatic Pillar (2/2 creature over easier-to-cast)? Which is better? I realize that Eidolon is probably better once it's on the board but it might come down on turn 2 less consistently than Pillar.

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Originally Posted by macosten

Ah, I suppose I should ask this, too: Eidolon or Pyrostatic Pillar (2/2 creature over easier-to-cast)? Which is better? I realize that Eidolon is probably better once it's on the board but it might come down on turn 2 less consistently than Pillar.

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Eidolon of the great Revel is just a Pyrostatic Piller with legs. the ability to attack or block is a nice addition to it. I wouldn't just take my advice as the only option, just my opinion on how the deck runs. And I mentioned before, my sideboard almost changes everytime I play depending if I know what decks im going against or not. I've had tournaments that I saw guys with combo decks so my SB changed to major combo hate.

I have a question for you. Is there a specific reason why G/R over the other builds? I definitely don't mind brewing but as been proven that the other color combinations are overall better than G/R.

It certainly began as more of a pragmatic choice than anything else - it was a little bit of "I have the cards, so I'll play it like this". Seemed better than playing Mono-Green, anyway.

It's possible the splash isn't worth it, but I'm not sure.

Hi macosten! I should probably start playing on xmage again. :wink:

I'm not sure about the specific cards to play in your deck - haven't tested this yet (i played a few games with an older version of your deck, but not really enough for any conclusions). Skrigers version of your deck seems to be very removal heavy. That could work out against creature heavy decks, and the sideboard should help against combo decks. I think there are two big question marks for the deck:
1. Lots of removal. In some matchups these are pretty much dead cards, and in general i don't like much spotremoval (without a good card advantage engine and with so many lands we just can't afford to just 1-for-1 against fair decks).
2. Only Crop Rotation maindeck against combo decks, and not even a fast alternate wincondition. Red doesn't offer many strong sideboard cards against combo decks (and i have my doubts about Eidolon for this deck, we can't really back it up with other aggressive cards), that means even if you have many cards to bring in against combo, i don't think the matchups will be that favorable to make up for an almost unwinnable Game 1. Afaik you always had some problems with Storm, and i don't think this deck has anywhere close to a positive matchup against Storm. Without great sideboard cards you might have to play some better maindeck combo hate. Warping Wail is solid, Trinisphere is also an option imo, or maybe even TKS.

About the advantages of different splashs:

- Mono-Green doesn't have good removal and doesn't have good combo hate. I don't think the higher consistancy can make up for that, i think we need another color.
- Blue offers Show&Tell as a faster alternate wincondition and has good sideboard options against combo decks. Also Brainstorm for better card selection. However, i think UG doesn't have access to good removal and imo more problems against fair decks than other options. You could splash white as a third color to fix that problem, and i think recently some people tried that with some success, like Skriger.
- White offers a solid package of removal and combo hate.
- Black also offers a very solid package of removal and combo hate - i think overall the removal in black is better than in white without a heavy blue splash, Toxic Deluge works without Brainstorm, Terminus doesn't. And right now i really like Collective Brutality - it has replaced Warping Wail in my deck and i think in most situations it's the better card. The combo hate with just discard is probably a little bit worse than white hate cards, but still solid.
- Red offers a lot of removal (although everything is damage-based, that could be a problem), but the combo hate is very questionable. I tried to splash red in my deck a few times, but overall black and white just offered better options for me. If you could make Sneak Attack work that could be another reason to play red.

For me it's between GW and GB, and my own build plays all three colors without any mana problems thanks to Mox Diamonds. I could probably even splash another color (and i'm working on that, but it's not at a stage where i think it's better than my best 3-color options).

Hi, i love turbo eldrazi...help me main deck list and side...my meta is miracle, death and taxes, bug shardless, bug delver, reanimator ecc.. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Hi macosten! I should probably start playing on xmage again. :wink:

- Blue offers Show&Tell as a faster alternate wincondition and has good sideboard options against combo decks. Also Brainstorm for better card selection. However, i think UG doesn't have access to good removal and imo more problems against fair decks than other options. You could splash white as a third color to fix that problem, and i think recently some people tried that with some success, like Skriger.

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The way I think of UG post is with more of a "jack of all trades master of none" sort of deal. Instead of having polarizing matchups with certain archetypes, it aims to equalize them as much as possible to give it a chance in most matchups. The cards that are included in the deck are there because they are versatile. Repeal is dead much less often than Swords or Terminus for example because it can be used to bounce non-creature cards like Blood Moon, can be pitched to Force of Will, can repeal top to dig through deck, etc. Warping Wail is also obviously versatile, killing creatures vs fair decks and serving as protection vs combo. Hell, sometimes it even generates a 1/1 to sac to liliana. Contrary to popular belief, Show and Tell is not actually meant to be an alternate win condition (although sometimes that strategy is employed as a plan C). Rather, that card has multiple uses too, most commonly for punching through counterspells, or to accelerate the game. I have played Show and Tell without anything to put down in my hand before just to try and pave the way for Ugin resolving the following turn for example. There are definitely matchups where it can and should be used as an alternate win condition (Lands, Blood Moon decks, etc.) but to rely on that specific card for winning is generally unrealistic and the game should be played with said assumption. I've even seen people use it as a bad explore which sounds freaking insane but sometimes the situation legitimately calls for it.


Having Terminus is nice and all but the way the deck is designed as a result causes it to sacrifice matchups that I really don't think need to be sacrificed. If I were to go into a local metagame where I know what I am going to be playing against, I might tech in some splash (as with Skriger's meta and Terminus) but if I were to go into a larger tournament I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything other than UG post.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by caprino

Hi, i love turbo eldrazi...help me main deck list and side...my meta is miracle, death and taxes, bug shardless, bug delver, reanimator ecc.. Thanks

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This is my current list, I'm still trying to figure out what the best configuration for fighting eldrazi is but it should definitely have game vs. all the decks you listed. Slots I am still messing around with are 4th Warping Wail, 4th Show and Tell, where Glacial Chasm should be in the deck (main side or none), and Nephalia Academy. Also wondering whether I should be slotting in a Candelabra or not. Feel free to make whatever changes you want:

Artifacts:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva

2 Planeswalker
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sorcery
4 Show and Tell

Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Krosan Grip
3 Moment's Peace
1 Glacial Chasm

(The islands are snow-covered b/c there have been 12-post builds in the past that used Into the North and Dark Depths. Hoping this gives people an incentive to play around the Dark Depths combo. I haven't been punished by the snow tag yet. )

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Originally Posted by 203995014

The way I think of UG post is with more of a "jack of all trades master of none" sort of deal. Instead of having polarizing matchups with certain archetypes, it aims to equalize them as much as possible to give it a chance in most matchups. The cards that are included in the deck are there because they are versatile. Repeal is dead much less often than Swords or Terminus for example because it can be used to bounce non-creature cards like Blood Moon, can be pitched to Force of Will, can repeal top to dig through deck, etc. Warping Wail is also obviously versatile, killing creatures vs fair decks and serving as protection vs combo. Hell, sometimes it even generates a 1/1 to sac to liliana. Contrary to popular belief, Show and Tell is not actually meant to be an alternate win condition (although sometimes that strategy is employed as a plan C). Rather, that card has multiple uses too, most commonly for punching through counterspells, or to accelerate the game. I have played Show and Tell without anything to put down in my hand before just to try and pave the way for Ugin resolving the following turn for example. There are definitely matchups where it can and should be used as an alternate win condition (Lands, Blood Moon decks, etc.) but to rely on that specific card for winning is generally unrealistic and the game should be played with said assumption. I've even seen people use it as a bad explore which sounds freaking insane but sometimes the situation legitimately calls for it.

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Repeal is the only real removal you have in UG, and while it is versatile, it's usually not a permanent answer. You don't have any cheap boardwipes, just Ugin - from my experience, i want my boardwipes to be cheaper than that. And Ugin doesn't help against Eldrazi. (Warping Wail is fine, no argument from my side. But that's available for every deck.)
When i'm talking about alternate winconditions, i mean it this way: Against many decks (most combo decks, Burn, sometimes Delver) you usually don't get the time to cast Primeval Titan and ramp into Eldrazi. You can try to buy some time with different control elements, but overall it's just an advantage to have a way to steal the game. That's why i play Dark Depths - i wouldn't play that in UG, because Show and Tell should do that just fine. For me this would be the most important reason to play Show and Tell. Of course you can also play mindgames with it or use it in a different way.

I'm not that experienced with UG-Post. I tested a lot of different builds to compare them to my own, and out of all the builds i tested, UG was by far the worst for me with a winrate of ~35%, so after ~40 matches i stopped. Maybe this particular build was just bad, but i was very unimpressed (against combo decks it wasn't better than most of the other builds, and against everything else it was just worse). Another reason i didn't like UG was actually Brainstorm: With just 4 fetchlands it's very likely you can't shuffle after a Brainstorm, so it is much worse than in any other blue deck with usually 8-10 fetchlands. It's also dead against Chalice and dead against Countertop.


My removal package in GWB is: 2-3 Toxic Deluge (right now 2/1 split), 1-2 Engineered Explosives (1/1 split right now), 2 Collective Brutality (that was 2 Warping Wail for a long time, i think this is better). Maybe up to 2 other spotremoval spells in the board (Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict are the best candidates - something to deal with the stuff i can't get with Brutality). Toxic Deluge is the boardwipe i want, Explosives is very versatile and Collective Brutality is also versatile and rarely a dead card.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Repeal is the only real removal you have in UG, and while it is versatile, it's usually not a permanent answer.

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You're missing the point. The point is that you don't need permanent answers. With the consistency and acceleration tools that are available to the deck (Show and Tell, Brainstorm, even Repeal itself), all that matters is that the game-ending card gets on the field before you die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

You don't have any cheap boardwipes, just Ugin - from my experience, i want my boardwipes to be cheaper than that. And Ugin doesn't help against Eldrazi. (Warping Wail is fine, no argument from my side. But that's available for every deck.)

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You're right, Ugin doesn't help against Eldrazi. Of course there are some matchups where I board it out but that's okay. I only have two of him and Brainstorm filters the dude out. I don't actually think of him of a boardwipe as I do think of him as a win condition that needs to be protected anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

When i'm talking about alternate winconditions, i mean it this way: Against many decks (most combo decks, Burn, sometimes Delver) you usually don't get the time to cast Primeval Titan and ramp into Eldrazi. You can try to buy some time with different control elements, but overall it's just an advantage to have a way to steal the game. That's why i play Dark Depths - i wouldn't play that in UG, because Show and Tell should do that just fine. For me this would be the most important reason to play Show and Tell. Of course you can also play mindgames with it or use it in a different way.

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I'm not disagreeing with that. There are several situations where the deck may transform into a worse Show and Tell deck. You seemed like you were saying that was the primary use of the card and I was explaining that the card's role was far from narrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

I'm not that experienced with UG-Post. I tested a lot of different builds to compare them to my own, and out of all the builds i tested, UG was by far the worst for me with a winrate of ~35%, so after ~40 matches i stopped. Maybe this particular build was just bad, but i was very unimpressed (against combo decks it wasn't better than most of the other builds, and against everything else it was just worse).

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I would imagine that the playstyle of the various 12-post lists are very different. I found myself having a lot of trouble with the mono green version myself. I don't know how to describe actually playing the deck, but I might sum it up as a reactive deck that doesn't start with a plan, tries not to die while it thinks of one, then attempt to execute said plan. Also, never ever feel too comfortable and be prepared to improvise A LOT.

Vs combo the deck makes a radical transformation into a miracle-esque deck. The boarding plan vs different combo decks are very different. Against storm for example, with my decklist the plan would be:

-1 Ulamog
-4 Primeval Titan
-2 Ugin
-3 Needles

+4 Force of Will
+4 Flusterstorm
+2 Krosan Grip

The deck becomes all protection spells and the only win condition left is Emrakul. Use brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top to either find or hide counterspells. Repeal, Krosan Grip and/or Warping Wail to kill or at least stave off problematic cards if that's relevant. Krosan Grip is the worst card to side in, but it's better than the stuff that's being boarded out and it actually has applications in stopping the combo for those that don't expect it (If the storm player casts Lion's Eye Diamond then a ritual, you can destroy the lion's eye diamond in response).

Against Sneak and Tell I would use this boarding plan:

-4 Crop Rotation
-2 Ugin
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ulamog
-2 Vesuva
-1 Ulamog

+4 Force of Will
+4 Flusterstorm
+3 Krosan Grip

In this matchup I actually would keep Primeval Titan in because the fact that this card and Glimmerpost have ETB triggers can be used to your advantage (putting them in using opponent's show and tell, destroy whatever enchantment they put in while trigger is on stack). I expect very little hand interaction from them so I hoard as much counterspells as possible in my hand and use fetchlands much more aggressively/liberally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Another reason i didn't like UG was actually Brainstorm: With just 4 fetchlands it's very likely you can't shuffle after a Brainstorm, so it is much worse than in any other blue deck with usually 8-10 fetchlands. It's also dead against Chalice and dead against Countertop

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Brainstorm I can actually see, it's a bit of a finicky card. Generally I've been pretty happy with it because it adds so much consistency to games where I don't get the sensei top and allows me to be a bit more reckless (purposely getting top dazed for example). That said, the times where it bricks do tend to stand out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 203995014

I would imagine that the playstyle of the various 12-post lists are very different. I found myself having a lot of trouble with the mono green version myself. I don't know how to describe actually playing the deck, but I might sum it up as a reactive deck that doesn't start with a plan, tries not to die while it thinks of one, then attempt to execute said plan. Also, never ever feel too comfortable and be prepared to improvise A LOT.

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That's how i tried it, but it's true, this is not the style of deck i'm the most comfortable with. I still think i didn't play that bad, i usually analyze my games and especially decisions i wasn't sure about, and it didn't seem like my play was the reason i lost so much.

My deck works differently than other 12-post decks, and that might be a reason why my results with my build are just better than with every other build, while the few players who try my build are usually not 12-post players and apparantly 12-post players either aren't comfortable with my build or don't think it's good. I'm playing more like a NicFit deck, and i can and do often win without casting any Eldrazi (and i board them out in a decent number of matchups). I like the toolbox style of NicFit. Before i had my own build i tried the NicFit/8-Post hybrid, but then i tried the same approach without the actual NicFit-Engine (and Mox Diamonds instead), that way i had more room for cards i was missing in the hybrid-list, and my results were just better. My game plan changes every game, but it depends on my hand and the matchup, and it's important to recognize the matchup as soon as possible to act accordingly, and that's probably where you could make the most mistakes with my deck (just for example Dark Depths, as that has a similar role to Show&Tell: In some games, i'm allin on Marit Lage. In other games i don't really want to go for it, but it's a good backup plan or might bait out a Wasteland. And in some matchups, Dark Depths reads just as "you can discard this card to mox diamond, never do anything else with it and board it out".).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Vs combo the deck makes a radical transformation into a miracle-esque deck. The boarding plan vs different combo decks are very different. Against storm for example, with my decklist the plan would be:

-1 Ulamog
-4 Primeval Titan
-2 Ugin
-3 Needles

+4 Force of Will
+4 Flusterstorm
+2 Krosan Grip

The deck becomes all protection spells and the only win condition left is Emrakul. Use brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top to either find or hide counterspells. Repeal, Krosan Grip and/or Warping Wail to kill or at least stave off problematic cards if that's relevant. Krosan Grip is the worst card to side in, but it's better than the stuff that's being boarded out and it actually has applications in stopping the combo for those that don't expect it (If the storm player casts Lion's Eye Diamond then a ritual, you can destroy the lion's eye diamond in response).

Against Sneak and Tell I would use this boarding plan:

-4 Crop Rotation
-2 Ugin
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ulamog
-2 Vesuva
-1 Ulamog

+4 Force of Will
+4 Flusterstorm
+3 Krosan Grip

In this matchup I actually would keep Primeval Titan in because the fact that this card and Glimmerpost have ETB triggers can be used to your advantage (putting them in using opponent's show and tell, destroy whatever enchantment they put in while trigger is on stack). I expect very little hand interaction from them so I hoard as much counterspells as possible in my hand and use fetchlands much more aggressively/liberally.

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I have the same general idea (boarding out most win conditions and trying to play the control game), although my specific sideboard strategy with this deck would need some work. The card choices are different, but i play a similar style with my deck in these matchups. The most problems with sideboarding with UG i had probably because of Show&Tell: On the one hand, i want a fast alternate win condition - but on the other hand, if i board out most of my creatures, it's getting a lot worse. I never have that problem with Dark Depths in my deck (against Storm i leave in Crop Rotations that work as a wincondition with Dark Depths, against Sneak&Show i board out both, because i want Titans and Eldrazi, and because they often play Blood Moon).

If i ever try UG again, i will keep that in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Brainstorm I can actually see, it's a bit of a finicky card. Generally I've been pretty happy with it because it adds so much consistency to games where I don't get the sensei top and allows me to be a bit more reckless (purposely getting top dazed for example). That said, the times where it bricks do tend to stand out.

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For a short time, i tried adding Brainstorm into my own build (going from Gwb to Gwu). It was horrible, after ~15 matches i started to board out Brainstorm and then i stopped the experiment. One big strength of my build is the lack of one-drops (right now i'm counting 2 Top, 3 Crop Rotations and 1 Deathrite in my mainboard), adding another 4 one-drops hurt the deck a lot, because there are so many decks that punish one-drops with Chalice or CounterTop. That doesn't mean UG should start cutting Brainstorms, but maybe this is actually something to consider if you are playing just 4 fetchlands and no Expedition Maps and no other way to shuffle (i don't really want to count Crop Rotation, using that just to shuffle is usually too risky).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

And right now i really like Collective Brutality - it has replaced Warping Wail in my deck and i think in most situations it's the better card.

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Any other changes to the last list you posted? I'm a big fan of that build.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djxstream

Any other changes to the last list you posted? I'm a big fan of that build.

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It's the only change i'm pretty sure about, but i tried a lot of things:

1. I'm trying the list without Maze of Ith and most likely with another fetchland instead. But not sure if this is good. (I wanted to try a 4-color build and that needed this cut. Not sure if this is good in the 3-color build, but i want to try it to get better mana, and i want to see if i really need the Maze - i'm not searching for it very often.)
2. I can't really decide on the number of Trackers and Knights. (My 4-color build has just 2/1, in my 3-color build i play 3 Trackers and can't decide if i want 1 or 2 Knights.) The second Knight is often useful in some harder matchups - it's not that good against Miracles or DnT, but those are good matchups anyway. I might even try a build with 3 Knights at some point just to see its effect on different matchups even better, but i doubt going higher than 2 is good.
3. I'm trying to play just 2 Crop Rotations and instead 1 Engineered Explosives maindeck. (Always liked the Explosives main, don't want to cut the Toxic Deluges again, and there are a decent number of matchups where i cut the Crop Rotations postboard anyway. But it comes at a cost. If i play the 2nd Knight, cutting the 3rd Crop Rotation might be easier.)
4. Went down to 2 Grapple again because there is just not enough room. Might be wrong though, i will probably try lists with 3 or even 4 again.

I tried some different things that didn't work out:
- Swords to Plowshares maindeck: Not flexible enough, too often dead.
- Abrupt Decay maindeck: Still too unflexible, also often not the right mana to cast it on time.
- Thoughtseize maindeck: Just not good enough against fair decks and a dead draw lategame.
- More spotremoval maindeck (a mix of Wail, Brutality, Swords and Decay, up to 6 spells at most): Too many dead cards, no matter how i combined it, the results were clearly worse than before.
- No spotremoval at all: Better than the other option, but i still think 2 spells like Brutality or Wail are better than this.
- New Nissa as a Planeswalker with interesting abilities: Not horrible, but doesn't help with the bad matchups.
- New Sigarda (big flyer and also hexproof for me, very helpful against Liliana and if i get her into play fast enough against Storm): i actually liked her more than i thought with a card that doesn't even see much play in Standard - but probably still not good enough

Collective Brutality instead of Warping Wail needs probably more testing too. At first i tried it as additional removal, just like several other options, and Brutality was better than everything else. Took me a while to try it instead of Wail when i realized the list with both might have too much removal. So far i like it a lot - still good in the same situations, but Brutality can kill a few more relevant things (flipped Delver, New Thalia, Magus of the Moon), can proactively get rid of the same cards i could counter otherwise and also hit instants and get information, occasionally you can escalate it and do both (not the default for this deck, but it's not that rare to have useless cards left in hand to discard). And in some very rare cases it can be just the needed lifegain and/or damage. Biggest problem is the sorcery speed compared to Warping Wail, i still think it's slightly better.

The sideboard is always going through some changes. Recently i'm trying to play more removal instead of Ensnaring Bridge (maybe another Toxic Deluge, maybe 1-2 Swords to Plowshares, maybe 1 Maelstrom Pulse), but i'm not sold on that yet - with Show&Tell going up in numbers it's probably not the best timing for that. (I think Bridge is strong against Show&Tell, Lands/Turbo-Depths and Eldrazi. Against other fair decks, removal is probably better. Against Eldrazi my testing suggests removal might be just as good (especially Toxic Deluge). Against Lands or Depths, the right removal (Swords to Plowshares, or possibly Diabolic Edict or Blessed Alliance) might be just as good. Against Show&Tell, Bridge is clearly stronger, and this is already imo one of my worst matchups, especially if they play Omniscience. So wether this change is good depends on how many Show&Tell decks you expect and how many fair decks you expect.)

The 4-color list i'm trying plays Atraxa and Leovold maindeck as additional GSZ-targets (and a single Flusterstorm in the board). Both cards are clearly powerful but also very hard to cast in a 12-post shell. Leovold is already played in other decks, just a solid hatebear. Atraxa is very strong against Delver, she does everything i want in a silver bullet against the different Delver decks. But so far i'm not convinced the resulting list is better than the 3-color list (or rather, i think it's probably worse - but in my testing it's not that much worse to give up on it already).

I played Magic last night for the first time in almost five months (work keeps me too busy at night). I tried out a pretty standard blue-green list. I lost every game. Maybe I just need more practice, but I fear I've learned that, like in Modern, I'm just not a blue mage. I didn't even have fun.

Alluren (a deck new to me) combo'ed and crushed me by turn three both games. Jund shredded my hand by turn three then slammed Lilliana and 'Goyf. UR Delver / Stormchaser Mage / Price of Progress was too fast for me to stabilize.

I cast about three spells all night. I missed a ton of land drops. I did not have fun at all.

I guess it's back to "mono"-green for me... of course, I probably won't be able to play Legacy again until SCG Worcester in April... ugh.

PS Sorry for the sad rant.

New spoiled card. Feelings on the new artifact?

Paradox Engine

Too gimmicky? I am thinking in the concept of Amulet of Vigor/ Candelabra type effect. I imagine having this out, tap locus lands, Tutor with eye of ugin, casting something simple like brainstorm, untapping all lands, re-tutor with eye of Ugin, cast again, keep mana floating and re-tutor for the win. This turns every single card in the deck into a pretty decent mana accelerator.

Perhaps it would work a lot better in the MUD builds that don't / can't run Metalworkers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skriger

New spoiled card. Feelings on the new artifact?

Paradox Engine

Too gimmicky? I am thinking in the concept of Amulet of Vigor/ Candelabra type effect. I imagine having this out, tap locus lands, Tutor with eye of ugin, casting something simple like brainstorm, untapping all lands, re-tutor with eye of Ugin, cast again, keep mana floating and re-tutor for the win. This turns every single card in the deck into a pretty decent mana accelerator.

Perhaps it would work a lot better in the MUD builds that don't / can't run Metalworkers.

---

Paradox Engine only untaps non-land permanents.
A card that could be considered from Kaladesh is Planar Bridge, but maybe it is too expensive and we already have Eye of Ugin (wich can be tutored) Planar Bridge can't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Artemis

Paradox Engine only untaps non-land permanents.
A card that could be considered from Kaladesh is Planar Bridge, but maybe it is too expensive and we already have Eye of Ugin (wich can be tutored) Planar Bridge can't.

---

Silly me, apparently I cannot read. Nevermind on that one. So this would fit much more into a MUD build working their alternate manabase.

I felt the same way with Planar Bridge. It's just too expensive I feel.

I've spent the last few months lurking on this thread, and I've been slowly building into my own Bant Post list. At the moment, I'm running this for the GP tomorrow. Feedback welcome!

4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
4x Tropical Island
3x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Vesuva
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Maze of Ith
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

4x Primeval Titan
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
3x Terminus
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pithing Needle
2x Trinket Mage
2x Show and Tell
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Expedition Map
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Moment's Peace
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

SB:
3x Trinisphere
3x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Moment's Peace
1x Swords to Plowshare

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Harrison5371

I've spent the last few months lurking on this thread, and I've been slowly building into my own Bant Post list. At the moment, I'm running this for the GP tomorrow. Feedback welcome!

4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
4x Tropical Island
3x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Vesuva
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Maze of Ith
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

4x Primeval Titan
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
3x Terminus
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pithing Needle
2x Trinket Mage
2x Show and Tell
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Expedition Map
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Moment's Peace
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

SB:
3x Trinisphere
3x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Moment's Peace
1x Swords to Plowshare

---

Interesting list! Can't wait to hear how it goes. I am curious though on a few choices you made. Moment's Peace even though you are running Terminus and Swords to Plowshares? Feels like a lot of creature hate. Also the Thespian's Stage always felt odd without Dark Depths, personal opinion but I would like to hear your point of view for it to be in this 75. Also feel like pulling the Plains out for a Tundra would really help balance that mana base.

Let us know how it goes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

Interesting list! Can't wait to hear how it goes. I am curious though on a few choices you made. Moment's Peace even though you are running Terminus and Swords to Plowshares? Feels like a lot of creature hate. Also the Thespian's Stage always felt odd without Dark Depths, personal opinion but I would like to hear your point of view for it to be in this 75. Also feel like pulling the Plains out for a Tundra would really help balance that mana base.

Let us know how it goes!

---

Hello! Didn't do well but it felt like me more than the deck. Moment's Peace was added for a way to stall through a large mana play, when i didn't have access to white, or to allow me to protect an attacking titan. I was using it as a catch all, after the event tho, I can say its not needed. Thespian's Stage delivered. I like it as a flexible land. A lot of times it can come in and become another colored source the next turn, then into a post, or glacial chasm etc. And in some of those cases I don't want to trigger ETB. I don't think its really an "important" card, but I was never upset about having it. Not to mention, its not so dead in hand as Vesuva in your opening hand. Tundra was a budget issue, but completely agree! Swords and Map kind of seemed a let down all day. If anything I could see changing the island for a tundra, dropping the moment's peace, swords, and map. the rest of the list felt pretty good tho!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Harrison5371

Hello! Didn't do well but it felt like me more than the deck. Moment's Peace was added for a way to stall through a large mana play, when i didn't have access to white, or to allow me to protect an attacking titan. I was using it as a catch all, after the event tho, I can say its not needed. Thespian's Stage delivered. I like it as a flexible land. A lot of times it can come in and become another colored source the next turn, then into a post, or glacial chasm etc. And in some of those cases I don't want to trigger ETB. I don't think its really an "important" card, but I was never upset about having it. Not to mention, its not so dead in hand as Vesuva in your opening hand. Tundra was a budget issue, but completely agree! Swords and Map kind of seemed a let down all day. If anything I could see changing the island for a tundra, dropping the moment's peace, swords, and map. the rest of the list felt pretty good tho!

---

What about your Sideboard? Did it seems to help a lot in matches? Was there any dead SB cards you just never found a spot for? Do recall the decks you played?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

What about your Sideboard? Did it seems to help a lot in matches? Was there any dead SB cards you just never found a spot for? Do recall the decks you played?

---

I played vs eldrazi, shardless, miracles, bug delver, shardless, maverick, ur delver, and infect

i didnt play against several matchups, but I feel like a 3rd krosan grip is really almost mandatory. The moment's peace was like i said earlier, not very good, and i would consider replacing the STP in the side (and 2 in the main) with Dismember (to play around chalice). So Sideboard in my opinion would be:

3x Trinisphere
3x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dismember

EDIT: I've only been listing 13 of my sideboard the whole time >.> also running 2 leylines of sanctity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Harrison5371

I played vs eldrazi, shardless, miracles, bug delver, shardless, maverick, ur delver, and infect

i didnt play against several matchups, but I feel like a 3rd krosan grip is really almost mandatory. The moment's peace was like i said earlier, not very good, and i would consider replacing the STP in the side (and 2 in the main) with Dismember (to play around chalice). So Sideboard in my opinion would be:

3x Trinisphere
3x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dismember

EDIT: I've only been listing 13 of my sideboard the whole time >.> also running 2 leylines of sanctity

---

I did a smaller local tourny over the weekend and almost came up with the same sideboard. I used to run a reclamation Sage and 2 Krosan Grips but i think I am going back to 3. The idea was against Vial builds to have a body and not worry about the split second. Your matchup against Omnitell is pretty bad so Krosan Grip with Prime Time in hand as they S&T is the only real decent solution to win. I like the idea of Dismember to skirt around a Chalice, problem is that it's not enough I feel. Nowadays, it's mainly because of Eldrazi and typically they would have a few creatures on board in which you lose 4 life as well as get hit by the remaining creatures.

I have been bouncing the idea to remove Ugin from my list. He is only a one of, and almost every game he was in hand, I wasn't able to get him out for multiple reasons. My list is a bit more S&T heavy and has some decent removal it feels like already. Either I would mainboard Tabernacle or find another singleton to take it's place like Green Sun's Zenith. Anyone else that runs, or has ran, Ugin run into odd issues with his success? It used to be a great board wipe and board control state. Just feels like a heavy card in hand now a days when I draw into him.

**EDIT** Figured a decent singleton, Omniscience! Haha,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

I did a smaller local tourny over the weekend and almost came up with the same sideboard. I used to run a reclamation Sage and 2 Krosan Grips but i think I am going back to 3. The idea was against Vial builds to have a body and not worry about the split second. Your matchup against Omnitell is pretty bad so Krosan Grip with Prime Time in hand as they S&T is the only real decent solution to win. I like the idea of Dismember to skirt around a Chalice, problem is that it's not enough I feel. Nowadays, it's mainly because of Eldrazi and typically they would have a few creatures on board in which you lose 4 life as well as get hit by the remaining creatures.

---

I think the split second in legacy is too important for krosan grip to be replaced. As far as the Eldrazi matchup, I think you really just have to be able to sweep the board, STP is better than Dismember in that situation, but really, even then, the problem is the quantity. I've also noticed that Maze of Ith is quickly becoming my go too for "single target removal". It may be inexperience with the deck, but several times having 2 or 3 maze of Ith's with Vesuva help clear the way to win. I'm thinking of maybe putting a second into the main board.

I haven't seen much activity to this thread regarding Aether Revolt, but I would like to discuss a new card from the set with an ability that hasn't existed in the game in green.

Heroic Intervention 1G
Instant
Permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible until end of turn.

- The closest thing we've had to this card is Teferri's Response, which I did play SB as a two of.
- It's a two mana answer to a wasteland that keeps your land alive and puts their wasteland in the graveyard.
- It's in the base color.
- It's a blowout potential to a removal spell on a resolved primeval titan (assuming you have 1G available).
- It counters Armageddon, From the Ashes and Ruination. Sorry Cataclysm, you still get us!
- Stops all artifact removal except for krosan grip.

The question as always: is this worth the sideboard slots?

I'm more excited to try it out in modern tron, since the way that deck often loses to a multitude flavor of land destruction and this card counter's it all. Also one-sided oblivion stones are a new level of obnoxious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maCHOOga

I haven't seen much activity to this thread regarding Aether Revolt, but I would like to discuss a new card from the set with an ability that hasn't existed in the game in green.

Heroic Intervention 1G
Instant
Permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible until end of turn.

- The closest thing we've had to this card is Teferri's Response, which I did play SB as a two of.
- It's a two mana answer to a wasteland that keeps your land alive and puts their wasteland in the graveyard.
- It's in the base color.
- It's a blowout potential to a removal spell on a resolved primeval titan (assuming you have 1G available).
- It counters Armageddon, From the Ashes and Ruination. Sorry Cataclysm, you still get us!
- Stops all artifact removal except for krosan grip.

The question as always: is this worth the sideboard slots?

I'm more excited to try it out in modern tron, since the way that deck often loses to a multitude flavor of land destruction and this card counter's it all. Also one-sided oblivion stones are a new level of obnoxious.

---

I was just looking over the full spoiler trying to beef up my sideboard for GP San Jose and thought about the potential of this card. Definitely helps against Wasteland decks. Typically though they are popping those very early so unless you are on the play, doesn't feel solid enough for SB for that reason. Stops Maelstrom Pulse and Armageddon. Though I usually only run into Maelstrom Pulse in jund or 4c Loam. Armageddon is typically in what, Miracles? All of those types of worries makes me rather just run a normal counter option like Disallow which is new as well.

A friend and I were talking about if we really could make voidslime work as a good toolbox, then they spoiled Disallow and got me thinking more about it. I feel its stronger than using Warping Wail. You lose the chump blocker ability but that's fine when you can just counter the creature in the first place.

FYI for people that don't know the card.
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/disallow.jpg
Disallow 1UU
Instant
Counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)

Now to weigh Teferi's Response; Heroic Intervention; and Disallow.
Teferi's Response: Pro - is that it blows up Rishadan Port. That sounds fantastic. Cons, very situational. horrible against loam decks. No other matchups other than wasteland heavy decks.
Heroic Intervention: Pro - Great blanket removal prevention, could pair with nevinyrral's disk or oblivion stone. Cons - Doesn't stop Council's Judgement. Doesn't stop Annihilator trigger.
Disallow: Pro - Non situational counterspell! Stops most abilities you need to prevent (Wasteland, Annihilator, Charbelcher, Grindstone, etc). Cons - Double blue mana cost making it a slow counterspell, not efficient against storm.

These cards are definitely something to test with and see how they perform under real pressure.

What do you guys think about running this guy and a toolbox package of sorts? I'm trying to figure out what I would actually want to run right now.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...8961686110.png

Disallow sucks for the deck, double blue is a bad stretch. Planar standard card may be worth testing but eye already pretty much does what you need planar to do and its tutor-able.
Little bit of testing I've done with Blessed Alliance and Terminus are successful, cards are really good for post in the current meta.

26
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Tropical Island
3x Windswept Heath
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Vesuva
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Karakas
2x Maze of Ith
1x Island
1x Forest

34
4x Primeval Titan
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
4x Terminus
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Pithing Needle
1x Trinket Mage
4x Show and Tell
1x Expedition Map
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Endbringer
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

---

15
2x Maze of ith
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x EExplosives
1x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x Natural State
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Blessed alliance
1x Cavern of souls