Printable View
I just had an idea...
Tireless Tracker + Arcbound Ravager. Turns each land you draw into +2 power on the board. +4 for fetchlands and Veteran Explorer triggers. Gets pretty big, pretty fast. Add Disciple of the Vault for extra bonus points. Perhaps some shenanigans with Ulvenwald Mysteries? Meren/Karador for value, Fangren Marauder for funsies? Too bad Summoning Station costs 7 mana.
Awesome or cute? Worth investigating..?
Ulvenwald Mysteries is another incredibly strong card. I think it's probably not quite good enough for older formats, though, because of the priority placed on exile removal (and we're already natively strong vs decks that don't have exile removal). When you have a Ravager out and you're going to turn, sure, it's great -- but you need to be prepared to use the card fairly, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't think that Disciple is where you'd want to be with this, but Ravager is at least a decent consideration. The main issue with it is our number of artifact creatures (and artifacts in general), because, again, you'd want to use it fairly as well some games. Well, "fairly" is a strong word where Ravager is concerned. I think that BUG is a likely home for this, since you have Baleful Strix and Trinket Mage -> Hangarback Walker to help feed this game plan.
Moving this to this page so that it doesn't get as quickly lost in the hustle and bustle of the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Maybe this is a nice idea for the BUG version of the deck then. Anyone want to give a crack at conjuring up a list. I'm kinda Clue-less on building BUG Fit lists.
Fangren Marauder also seems funny as fuck. Good luck to your opponent as far as killing you is concerned. With a Tracker out, normal land draws turn into +5 life, fetchlands are +9. Turns Sakura-Tribe Elder and Veteran Explorer into nice walls too.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by echelon
It wouldn't let me capitalize that lol post for comedic effect :( Stupid forum software.
Anyway.
Glissa is obviously a natural inclusion here. Darksteel Citadel might be worth looking into, which could potentially let you splash in Thought-Knots for value, with minimal other inclusions? Or even just run Ancient Tombs to come out of the gates faster. With Fangren, you'd have the life gain to offset running a couple of Tombs.
Tezz AoB might be worth looking into here. I don't think that this deck is comboish enough to want Seeker.
The biggest cockblock is likely going to be finding something good to put the +1/+1 counters on to from Ravager. Are there any artifact creatures in BUG<> that have hexproof? Technically there's the 2/2 protection from non-artifacts Metalcraft guy, but I don't think you want him.
I call it Arti/Clue Fit.
@Arianrhod: If it has >3 toughness and/or a CMC >3, we're well on our way. Hexproof artifact creatures don't exist, I just checked.
Generating a heap of Clue tokens to abuse in some other way than drawing cards might be worth looking into. We have mana, we have tutors. If there's any deck that has a chance to pull it off, it's us. I don't think we should put too much effort in keeping Ravager alive - it should have the best value as a sac outlet (that threatens to kill the opponent if left unanswered). Consider it a sorcery that says "2 mana, Sacrifice any number of artifacts: do stuff". If it does get to smash face, that's just icing on the cake. It shouldn't be its primary role.
Are there any useful sac outlets that allow for the sacrificing of permanents for value? I know there's a bunch for creatures, obviously, and there's some for artifacts...but are there any that allow us to do either? A hybrid sac outlet that lets us off both Vets and extra Clues would be valuable.
Note that Tezz AoB's ultimate works well with a pile of Clues, as does making them 5/5s that draw a card when they are targeted with removal.
If you want good targets for Ravager, you could always try to fit Inkmoth / Blinkmoth Nexus into your mana base. They can't be decayed at least.
This deck doesn't want Deed, looks like, or at least it's worse than in other builds. Is there an alternative board-equaliser you can use? I guess you could just run more Deluge and Strix.
I haven't been able to play recently, so I have just been lurking the thread for a bit. Sporadically and at random.
A serious question, no malice here, just a genuine question dictated by my own curiosity: are you guys actually testing all these kinds of decklists you all are posting? Is this only the theory crafting part before the final cuts or what? I see the thread is being flooded by new kinds of strategies and I have lost track of where we want to go eventually with the deck. Rhino got the axe and now we are discussing to put more trackers in the deck instead? Is this where we are going?
(To Echelon: this is just curiosity, I'm not spitting negativity against your work. After a fair bit of misunderstandings I find it is necessary to put this disclaimer) :D
I brew incessantly. Like, realistically should we be talking about Clues.dec two weeks out from Legacy GP weekend? Probably not. But if you dangle something interesting in front of my face, I can't really help but work on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Usually the lists that I post that are singles are tested, when I post a large volume of lists (such as last night), they're more theorycrafted, as I'm looking for the list that I want to start testing from a pool of possible candidates, each of which has some seed idea that I want to work from.
Compulsive brewer..nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
e: I'll keep lurking now..
I'm about the same way. It's hard for me to stay with the same list for any amount of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
So I took this list for a league spin over the weekend:
BUG Lily/Jace
15
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Tragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Consecrated Sphinx
6
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
19
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
21
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
side:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Thief
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Golgari Charm(can't remember, either this or Deluge I think)
Went 2-3 losing to Burn, Omnitell, and Eldrazi. Winning against High Tide and Storm. Had another match against 12Post that I won. More experience with the list would have been a huge benefit.
Others have said that BUG is weak to Burn and I'd definitely agree - was only able to win a game 2 due to Thragtusk.
Omnitell I probably sided incorrectly...kept the Explorers in when I probably should have removed them and just boarded fully into control.
Eldrazi was just fast like it always is, and I misplayed by fielding a Liliana against a clean board. Smasher came in and cleaned her up...should have waited until there was something to make them lose. Had 3 Jace in my hand once. :/
High Tide easy, basically just surgical extracted his High Tides both games (happened on my turn 1 game 2).
Storm wasn't a real match, guy fizzled after trying to go off after seeing a Therapy in my hand. Then just conceded the entire match for some reason.
List feels like it has potential though despite a rough start, it's pretty fun and draws a TON of cards. Edric is an all-star. Game against 12Post, I stripped his hand, then just sat there attacking with dorks, drawing 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 cards a turn.
Pernicious Deed + Liliana is a great pair. Deed punishes the opponent for overextending. Liliana punishes the opponent for underextending. Ditto with Jace.
I think I'll try to move away from Gitrog and Sphinx (didn't get a chance to play either), and add a 2nd Thragtusk and a 2nd Tracker. Basically little dudes with card advantage + powerful walkers. Since they have CA built in (most of them) then you don't mind losing one or two when needing to Deed. Another idea is Kitchen Finks and Meren. Finks makes the mana a tad more difficult early on. I've got a round 1 bye at Columbus, but I still want to be prepared against Burn...
Capsize may also deserve a slot.
Tireless Tracker is definitely worthy of a close look, and potentially more than a singleton slot.
however I'm not sure if building around the guy is a good idea. His major strength (at least as far as I see it) is that he always provides value and demands an answer, even if he doesn't have support from anywhere else really. Nic Fit is a deck which is more of an 'engine' deck - it plays a lot of cards which require other cards to do real work (Veteran and Therapy are the obvious ones, but also Nightmare, Equipment, Deed, and Witness). Tracker provides an option which does something with none of the support the rest of the deck demands, filling a slot which only Sigarda and Planeswalkers really do otherwise, and at a lower CMC. He's a really good Zenith target when both players are on a relatively empty board.
Building around Tracker seems kind of counterproductive when one of his biggest strengths is that you dont' have to. By going to 3 Trackers, say, we've reduced the number of slots in the deck which are garbage when drawn on their own. We should build on that advantage, rather than spend it by including more cards (like Fangren Marauder and Arcbound Ravager) which go back to the same problem, and are terrible unless we draw them with other engine pieces.
If we're going to build around a strategy that promises huge piles of value, but folds to RIP, has some weak individual pieces, and depends on keeping removable creatures in play, we might as well go for the Meren/Nightmare strategy rather than Tireless, since at least Meren is resilient to nonwhite removal effects.
Hopefully that makes sense to you guys.
No nice way to say this so ... we all like to brew. But please keep the lists for yourself until you have tested them a few times and the ideas until they are a bit refined. Throw a list together, make a few test games on cockatrice against randoms and see if you have something that works - before posting. Otherwise your creativity turns into unproductive spam that other people are forced to read. Arcbound Ravager in Nic Fit is completely atrocious in every way. Disciple of the Vault is even worse.
Thanks for the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Here are some food for thoughts:
1) I dunno if you've seen the list I provided some pages ago (+ comments), but you should take a look @ it (or @ my signature).
2) I fear 2 Ooze MD are mandatory in any heavy walker list. Burn will be a lot easier.
3) Your curve is too high. Moving away from Gitrog and Sphinx, as you said, will smooth the whole thing.
4) I played with 21 lands for a longtime. I am since pretty convinced that 22 is the perfect number.
5) When you play blue, you should be playing some hardcounters (negate, countersquall, etc...). They are THAT amazing (even with Liliana)
6) Your targetted removal & sweepers package should not only be multicolored spells. "MoR + Revoker" on Deed is 90 % a gameloss.
7) Last but no least, you should choose what your primary goal is. Kill with Walkers or Kill with creatures. I feel like you have too many of both.
Anyway, if you have any questions, feel free to shoot.
I'm also preparing for GP Prague :)
I think the classic go to now is for 2 deed plus a deluge. That are 3 deed plus the deluge. You need another sweeper that can deal with mom revoker combo but also be a fast sweeper that can help against elves and delver.
When I played Bug nic fit I had 3 jace. I only played 2 Lily because as good as she is I found on her own she isnt more than a cruel edict with upside. We dont have punishing fire or loam. Nor are you particularly fast where shardless can start with drs into goyf and provide a fast clock. She worked great in tandem with jace of course.
I only played the 3 jace and a couple of tar pits as real win cons. I also had 2 Thragtusks which was to help with burn/aggro match up but also turned Jace into a win con when fatesealing wasnt viable. Swinging with tusk and bouncing replaying creates a pretty decent amount of power fast and the life gain insulates from crack backs.
I agree that when you make a bug list you want to really decide the route you want to take. Either you are on the jace and spare change plan or drop most of the walkers aside from a few jace and plan to just be a midrange deck that has some bigger top end.
I also played probe/strix/snap to really chew through the deck. Those cards also let me main deck fow so shredding their hand and landing an early jace that still could have fow of backup was very good. I know many ppl dislike probe both because they do not feel the need to use a "training wheel" and because it made the deck smaller but I recommend it as the deck is very slow so missing on the therapy vs combo was disaster as you cannot just hope to aggro them out even. Information is big with this deck too as if you run bs/gsz you want to know what type of big threat are they weak to, do you need a sweeper or not, etc. Also, the best cards in this deck are great but they start to slide off so keeping the deck tight and ensuring you get your best cards every game is a high priority.
Those are my initial thoughts on the bug list.
Thanks Tom for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I really missed sharing ideas with you.
1) I tried the Probe + CT combo. Eventually, I dismissed it. It adds somehow clumsiness to your starting hands that feels really really bad in a control deck. The power of such combo is real but only in a deck playing ponder, brainstorm, probe and CT. I remember arguing with Qweerios about how much ponder was better to get the veteran + CT combo inline.
Don't fool ourselves, what we are looking for is advancing our gameplan. Period.
As much as I like playing Probe + CT altogether, I prefer Veteran + CT any day / all day; and to those who doubt it, yes it is easier to assemble the latter using Ponder rather than Probe.
2) 2nd Thragtusk. It is another option. I have elected the 1-of GSZ to increase my odds to see the green bastard I need (usually in the given order):
- Veteran/Wall
- Ooze
- Thragtusk
3) Bouncing creatures with Jace: I should have re-mentioned that as I use that trick more than often (Snapcaster + Thragtusk). Not to mention that for those playing with a Glen Elendra Archmage, there is a very good soft-lock here for any combo/control deck.
4) Glad you accentuate the "clock" issue. I have underlined it as well. Did you ever try Empty the Pits ? God that card is real.
5) Thanks for the Lili's idea. I'll ponder about cutting one.
I've considered the same thing, I have 2 Trackers now, I think the idea of 1 is crazy since you would rather GSZ something else and just draw into your CA. Adding more than 2 has been an issue of what to cut though, either Rhino's, Sigarda's, or some other CA piece need to come out and I haven't been ready to make that sacrifice yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Most of the complete lists I post, I do test (when I get the chance to). I like to take a number of different approaches to deckbuilding, coming up with small packages we might be able to build around is one of those approaches. More often than not I can't find enough stuff to make the list even near competitive, so I scrap the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
And lol!
Hey!
I’d like to pick up the idea of Contamination again. I have the feeling that there could be something there, especially with Creakwood Liege. It’s tutorable by GSZ, doesn’t die to Abrupt Decay, and can be cast when Contamination is already in play. It can be hit by Lighting bolt and Punishing Fire, but you can play around that a bit by playing Contamination first. I was playing around with the following list on Cockatrice a bit. It’s more or less a basic Rhino-shell, minus the Rhinos.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Sensei’s divining top
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Creakwood Liege
1 Sigarda, Host of herons
1 Thragtusk
3 Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Vindicate
I don’t have much experience in Deck-building, so I’m not quite sure about some of the numbers.The only thing really set in stone would be the Deathrites, because they can make non-black mana under Contamination and get buffed to ¾ by Creakwood Liege, which is a nice bonus
I havent tested the list very much, but it seems the list is able to disrupt the opponent long enough until you can either lock the opponent with Contamination or smash face with Sigarda, Host of Herons.
I also don’t know if I should include Academy Rector in there, because I feel that would require more Sac-outlets. Maybe Enlightened Tutor would make the lock more consistent, and one could add things like Bitterblossom or other one-offs to search for, but I’m not sure if that would require too much space.
Basically, I’m looking for some feedback here, or if you guys think that this idea is able to work in the first place.
I also didn’t think about a sideboard yet, but I guess it would contain the usual suspects (Discard, Extraction, Gaddock, etc.)
As much as I love the idea of Contamination it feels more like a sideboard card to me. There are a few relatively common matchups where you really don't get anything out of it, and all the support cards you want are awkward too. Elves does mostly okay, any any Aether Vial deck has the potential to not care at all, along with lists running Deathrite or just heavy on black mana. It's great against two of the biggest problems we have (Eldrazi and Miracles) but I don't know if that's enough to run it maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
If it did have a maindeck slot, I'd go for a singleton with tutors and some other targets. Rector seems okay (4 Therapy, 2 Tower is probably enough outlets), and there are a lot of other good targets - the big ones being Humility/Moat (also good vs Eldrazi), Pernicious Deed, and whatever Storm / Combo hate you prefer (Rule of Law or Leylines or whatever). Also makes your sideboard options very powerful.
I totally agree with Navsi.
Plus, contamination needs a very particular setup to be played lasting more than one turn. So with tutors, you can choose when you bring it in the game. With 3 of them main deck, I imagine there would be a lot of game in which you would be stuck with several Contamination in hand..
However, if you really want to pursue in this scheme, you could think about Bloodghast. Because except Elves, it would be protected against DRShaman under Contamination (no G), and allow to bring a creature to sac to Contamination in flash condition with a fetchland.
To have played the "combo" in EDH, Meren do a great job here too.
Or several zombies and Gravecrawler.
So I'm planning to head over to a small tournament this weekend - hoping to pick up some components for the Starfield of Nyx build going around and test that out, but I have nowhere near enough of the list currently so I'm going to be sticking with a Stoneblade build. I'm going to take some of the ideas we've been passing around, though, and go for something like this:
21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
13 Creatures:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
27 Noncreature Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Basically I'm going for less of the steak / haymakers like 6-mana Sorin, Dromoka, Siege Rhino and so on, and instead running the lower to the ground 'walkers and more card advantage. I've been thinking about GSZ targets and options and I don't think it's necessarily required to include that much more than what I'm running here. Sigarda is a perfectly reasonable game-ender in basically every matchup, particularly because I'm running equipment to make her particularly hard to deal with. Tireless provides CA on an empty board and forces Miracles to X-for-1 itself, and Witness stabilises with recurring Path, Deed or Therapy. The only real thing the list misses is a Zenith target which gains life and trades well into the enemy board - but Stoneforge does so very well. If needed the obvious choice would be Thragtusk, since Dromoka is a bit on the expensive side.
I'm tempted to swap Sorin for a Thragtusk, but the lower CMC and better potential to end the game is useful too. I'm thinking of putting a Thrag in the sideboard to replace the Thoughtseize against decks which pressure my life total, since he's a good card to have access to against Miracles also.
Preliminary sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Carpet of Flowers
Thanks for the input!Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Opposing Aether Vials and Deathrites shouldn't live long against us anyways, so I'm not very concerned about those. we have so much removal to keep the board clear, and once it is, Contamination will come down to keep them from playing more stuff.
I'd rather have at least two, instead of only a singleton, because the matchup where Contamination shines the most (miracles) has so many counterspells. but maybe I'll cut down to two, and try to fit in some tutors/other targets for the tutors.
As for the topic of getting more of them stuck in your hand: Top helps with that. Also, I don't think it's that horrible to have more of them in your hand, at least you can more or less timewalk your opponent with one :P or bait a counter.
I'll definitely test it more, it seems to be so much fun :)
Edit: cutting down the number and adding tutors/other targets would also help with the fact that contamination itself isn't that good against some decks.
What happened to scapefit? I am a 12post player (mono G) and scapefit is not an autowin like most other builds of nic fit. I actually have to be very cautious and hold up a warping wail in an event that I get violated with mountains.
Slaughter Games is a house. When resolved it just rips up many decks win cons.
Another card that is troublesome for greedy mana bases is From the Ashes and can be simply tutored up with burning wish.
On another note, I love the use of the legendary frog and hope that the horror makes an impact on the nic fit core.
Scape Fit has a few issues that other Nic Fit lists don't have, mainly because of its manabase.
- Lack of White removal: this makes the Lands and Infect matchups much much worse.
- Unstable manabase: Makes the Lands matchup worse again, and generally makes other Wasteland decks much more of a threat (the deck loses to Delver lists more because it just can't get to 7 lands well)
- Bad creature plan: Huntmaster and Thragtusk just aren't good enough to threaten on the ground any more. Tireless Tracker does help here, but I'm not sure it's enough.
- Wish reliance: This mainly means the deck's interaction is on the slow side. Elves can often go off on turn 3 before you can play a Pyroclasm you wished for. Storm isn't quite as bad, but you do still stumble on B sources and fail to cast your discard spells more than the other builds.
I agree with Infect and Elves being two poor MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
S&T is another one.
Lands is not so bad as far as I am concerned, but my experience might be a bit outdated. The last time I played Scape was during a GP and I remember facing at least 1 lands & 1 turbo-depth.
Each game Huntmaster put me up to 21+ lifepoints; Then I took a hit from Marit; won the very next turn.
Edit: my latest build might be worse against Marit strategy and I have yet to test Navsi's idea with Kolaghan Command.
@Navsi, that's almost identical to the list me and plm have been playing with. Highly recommend 7/10 would play again. Currently testing man lands to deal with miracles, top deck wars and flooding. I will be entering it in the legacy challenge next week, and not running rhinos against my better judgment again :P
I'm currently at -1 STE -1 library -2 walkers -1 Tracker, +1 vet +1 TS +1 d abor +1 tusk (for reasons you stated) +1 Meren (she's much better with SFM and wins all my games agains shardless, Jund, pox etc)
Just a change of some threats and card advantage cards and then running the extra interaction instead of the library. I like the walkers, mine are in the side where your tusk is. So after you equate the roles of cards the real only difference between our lists is I play a TS and dryad Abor and you have a library and planes walker in their place. I'm not a fan of library right now, I find the card really slow. I know you don't like d abor so that Makes sense. Maybe I'll try cutting it for a walker now I'm testing man lands ( -1 Drs -1 scrubland +2 stirring wildwood)
Plm runs the same list as me just -1 tusk -1 tracker +2 souls.
Sideboard is similar
2 Surgical
2 Needle
2 TS
2 Spirit of Labyrinth
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
1 Engineered plague
2 Deluge
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Soring GN
edit: happy to answer any questions on playing with SFM, my card choices main or side and sideboard plans. I have lots of data in legacy leagues to support them.
Sounds good.
STE -> Vet: Pretty much interchangable, I like STE for the utility, but Vet is obv more explosive.
Tracker -> Meren: Maybe I want a Zenith @4 target. I like Tracker because immediate value helps a lot against STP lists. Meren is clearly stronger against BGx decks, both threaten to take over the game. IMO BGx is a good enough matchup already that we can afford to shave a few points there and gain against Miracles / speed up our clock. Depends on meta though.
Library, Walkers -> Arbor, TSeize, Tusk: Arbor is much better with Meren. Again I'm hedging more towards grindy decks and you're leaning further against fast aggro and combo. Tusk helps against the grind too though. I'm tempted to drop Library for the Tusk or the Seize just to make my Deeds better - they're already pretty awkward with Jitte and DRS.
Sideboard:
Are you playing 2 Deluge side and 1 main? seems like a lot, esp with Engineered Plague and Deed as well. I guess Zealous Persecution is basically the same thing in my side. I like the castability of ZP into Thalia more than the scalability, since most matchups where a big sweeper would be relevant (Fish, Goblins, misc BGx) there aren't that many cards which I really want to side out.
I like running the other two Decays in the side so I can side them in to replace Thoughtseize against decks which pressure my life total.
Is Spirit of the Labyrinth impressive? I've always felt its impact isn't as great as other hatebears.
Been thinking Herald of the Pantheon can be solid with Starfield, maybe Retreat to Emeria too. Both seem to play into the Contamination plan too, still no idea how to build that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I was wondering if Siege Rhino is really that good. To me it seems that a Siege Rhino (or 4) are not good enough in todays legacy meta. I made several test games with a normal netdecked gbw list and i often thought that the Rhinos are somehow not threatening/big enough. The inbuildt helix is more nice to have than gamewinning.
I thought i would go full Rhino (with sigarda, Grimm Sorin and Dromoka) but while the others are impressing me every time, the Rhino seem lackluster.maybe ot is just me playing it wrong?
The problem with Rhino is that it is bad against everything that Nic Fit has problems with: Combo, Jace and over the top creatures (Griselbrand, big Eldrazis). A card like Birthing Pod in BUG (maybe in GBW too) or something like Liliana in Fires can be more effective against those problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton!
@Brael
I don't know if Herald of the Pantheon is worth it. The cost reduction doesn't feel that relevant, since even in Starfield builds there are only maybe 15 enchantments in the deck, and most of those are expensive enough that we'd only cast one a turn. The cost reduction is unlikely to frequently play out better than any of our other ramp effects, and is a lot more vulnerable to removal than, say, STE.
The life gain is a nice bonus, but it'll trigger significantly less than even Courser, probably giving us 5 or so life at most over a long game. IMO the Herald wants a different deck which recurs enchantments more and casts them rather than just bringing them back with Starfield. Maybe something more focused on Recurring Nightmare? Nightmare + Herald looks a lot more scary than a Starfield plan.
Enchantress fit? What is going on? I am super lost.
@Ricardio
The original list that sparked the Enchantment theme discussion is the one posted by Ulysse78 on the third post of page 287.
You could very well be right here, I suppose the eventual usefulness of it would depend on the eventual build. Dropping 2's and 3's by 1 mana is more useful than ramp if you're able to generate 2 mana in advantage per turn. Not so if you're just getting 1 mana per turn (or even less) though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Some pages back a user posted a build using a heavy number of enchantments. Of and on (maybe once per page?) we've discussed some ideas with it. I don't think anyone has come up with a full list though, rather just brainstorming pieces that work well. Seems to center around the idea of abusing Rector and cards like Starfield of Nyx.
For Enchantments, I know a lot.
- First I know is that this deck needs Recycle (or Null Profusion). If you never had this card in play, try it out, really. I know it might look unusual if you never played it, but please try it. It is completely busted, easily outdraws Jace.
- Another card you can try is Faith's Fetters over Oblivion Ring. Deals better with a lot of nonsense (example Batterskull when Rectored or Eye of Ugin) and is lifegain when desperate.
There is also an interesting Combo in Enchantment decks that run Rector: Humility plus Dovescape plus Curse of Death's Hold. Neither of them is really bad on its own. Dovescape is game against any Combo Deck, also good with Rector because Rector is not a spell, but acts as one so with Dovescape on board the next Rector will resolve. Curse is great against D&T, Elves and Mentor and Grixis, and a lot of other stuff, too. And Humility you already run anyway. All three combined is almost a hardlock but any two already work very well together already and you can do a lot of fun stuff that is actually pretty good:
a: Humility plus Curse shuts down all of their creatures, obviously good.
b: Humility plus Dovescape shuts down the game entirely but you have GSZ and other bigger cards, still handle with caution.
c: Curse plus Dovescape is also comboing nicely.
Yah, the list has given me a ~66% win rate online has meant I haven't had to pay for leagues for a while. I put the list down for a bit to test other cards (rhinos, souls, slaughter games etc) and then took a break, but back with a vengeance etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Yea I'm ver much sold on Meren, and if you have two trackers, I feel like the versaility gained by having a split is pretty good. She's great with d abor against eldrazi too. But again, if you don't like dryad abor then don't play her. And to be fair your walkers do a very good meren impression. So let me know how they go.
Tusk is also a card I love (why can't we play 4? and play more ramp... tried it, real hard) it gets you out of spots no other card would etc. Great against aggro, midrange and control.
Sideboard wise, apologies, I don't play a deluge main, I play 3 StP, 3 Decay, 3 Deed. I've really struggled with elves and I like engineered plague against mentor too etc. That said just before coming to check the forum I decided that 3 sweepers in the side is a bit over kill, and I wanted to play two teegs (matt has played two often and I figure it is our best card in some of our worst matches) so I cut the plague for now.
Spirit is currently in testing. I havnt actually cast him yet, the slot originally went to Abeyance. I like my cards to jump across a lot of matchups, so those two slots need to be good against miracles/combo and possibly shardless.
Example sideboarding:
Miracles, +2 needles, +2 TS, +2 Teeg, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +2 Card advantage (Sorin/skeletal)
-4 Therapy, -4 vet, -3 StP.
Shardless, +2 deluge, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +2 Card advantage
-4 therapy, -2 TS (out comes 6 discard replaced with 6 slots that can give me card advantage)
Storm
+2 Surg, +2 TS, +2 Teeg, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +2 Deluge
-1 Tusk, -1 Sigarda, -3 StP, -3 Decay, -1 Meren, -1 BSK/Jitte (can never decide)
Eldrazi
+2 Deluge +1 E plague/Rec Sage +1 Sorin (yeeaaa)
-4 Therapy (they have to attack into vet, and TS can take threats from their hand but you don't want 4 of them)
D&T
+2 Deluge, +1 E plague/Rec Sage
-2 TS, -1 Meren
So in conclusion, in my head my sideboard has slots that do certain things for my plans and cards then fill those slots (if that makes sense?). Spirit is in testing at the moment for slot that needs to be one of the few things that is good against miracles, combo and shardless.. Abeyance, spirit, choke, carpet? Red elemental blast etc so I'm just working through them to find which I think is best.