Peacekeeper is pretty unreliable against the newer elf lists with Mortarpod and Humilities, it doesn't hinder them at swarming the board until they find the solution.
Printable View
Peacekeeper is pretty unreliable against the newer elf lists with Mortarpod and Humilities, it doesn't hinder them at swarming the board until they find the solution.
Conversely though, if they have Humility out, that really makes Jitte even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
Would Elves board in Humility against Maverick when nothing in the deck aside Canonist stops them from comboing out?
They might - Caleb Durward said he sided in 1 Meekstoke and 1 Humility vs. RUG. Chris Andersen was running 3 Meekstone in his build vs. RUG. So, obviously Maverick is concerned with running tech against other 'fair' creature-based decks.
The reason they might play Humility is that they can pump out more creatures than us and then drop Humility and there is nothing we can do to get rid of the Humility (barring Krosan Grip). If they get an turn 2/3 mini-Glimpse and drop 7-10 creatures on the board and then follow it up with a Humility on the following turn, their 7-10 1/1's will be able to beat our 3/4 1/1's. Not to mention 70% of their deck is creatures or GSZ, where ~45% of our deck is creatures or GSZ.
Plus, Humility really makes our removal and our big guys look foolish (STP'ing a 1/1 vanilla creature or paying 3 for a 1/1 is dumb).
I think the current versions of Elves has two plans vs. Maverick:
1) Combo off as quickly as possible.
2) Drop Humility and put more 1/1's into play.
Beating RUG Delver - the stats show this match up should be about 50/50, or perhaps slightly in Maverick's favor. However, I've lost my last 3 matches vs. RUG. Some of this is due to variance. Two of my games, my opponents drew pretty hot and another one I pulled 5 lands off the top out of my first 6 draws. Perhaps I am not playing optimally. The matches I've lost have mainly been to a flipped Delver, as we don't have much that flies to block them. For this reason, I'm considering Aven Mindcensor (for the trade). I also considered boarding in Linvala, but this seemed too attenuated. I've also died to Threshed Mongooses (3, to be exact), but this should never really happen and this occurred during my mana-flood game.
The reasons I am writing are twofold. First, to gather everyone's sideboarding plan vs. RUG. Second, to gather general strategy for the match up.
Starting with strategy, let me list a few off the top of my mind:
1. Get a Jitte online.
2. Kill all their creatures (Gut Shot the Delvers, StP/PtE the Goyfs/Ooze).
3. Don't turn 1 GSZ for Dryad Arbor (when it gets Submerged, it hurts too much).
4. Don't play two x/1 creatures without an active Mother, unless you have Thalia and they are short on land (too much of a risk of playing into Forked Bolt / Fire//Ice).
5. Other suggestions are welcome.
Regarding sideboarding plans. I've been running Ben Stark's GP list (which was designed by LSV). With the rise and fall of Reanimator, this list is probably less than optimally tuned for the current meta. The sideboard is probably over-committed to defeating Reanimator/Sneak and Show/Elves. Anyhow, I've been running LSV's exact list, which you can find here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=62912
With this list, I usually sideboard as follows:
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Fauna Shaman
- 2 Qasali Pridemage
- 2 Sylvan Library
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 3 Gut Shot
+ 1 Path to Exile
+ 1 Life from the Loam
When I don't expect Sulfuric Vortex, I'll remove the 3rd Qasali Pridemage for Gaddock Teeg. I'm not totally sold on Teeg in this match. He stops Submerge and Force of Will, but many times RUG removes all or some number of FOWs and they can always filter Submerge away or hold them until they've disbanded Teeg. Because Teeg eliminates our own GSZ and we have no ability to filter them away, an active Teeg can make for dead draws. When I run Teeg, I'm inclined to leave in Karakas over Bojuka Bog, as it allows me to bounce Teeg/Thalia to protect from removal, 'fog' block, and 'lift' their respective abilities and then replay them later in my turn.
I curious about everyone's inputs, experiences, and advice regarding the RUG match up.
VS RUG u can win with 4thalia and 2 cavern MD and 2 choke post side. this is my side.
elfball is a bad mu, and i dont know how can i do. however my sb is 2 canonist 1 linvala 1 path. but is ever bad.
Gut shot is not for the RUG matchup whatsoever. You can try it out, but i gaurentee it you will be disappointed with its performance. Nothin is worse than topdecking Gut shot against a flipped Delver. Stick to Paths and getting Jitte online. If youre not already running Sylvan Safekeeper, that also helps against the tempo removal. Gut shot + Thalia is a sweet nonbo.
Dont board out Sylvan Library either.
i dont understand safekeeper where it is strong.
side against those who do?
Safekeeper is awesome against RUG because it acts like a hasty Mom.
In that matchup, we pretty much have to keep Knight from getting Submerged/Mind Harnessed and not die to Delver. Tarmogoyfs and Mongooses are pretty easy to deal with.
Makes sense. In my limited RUG MU's Gut Shot has been very good (I've always had it in hand before the Delver flipped), but I can see your point about it being a totally dead card once Insectile Aberration transforms. Overall, I have been unimpressed with the Gut Shots. The life loss does become relevant. Hence, the Taiga in the main deck. However, the Taiga comes at the cost of Gaea's Cradle, which I particularly like in the RUG match-up in combination with Scavenging Ooze for shrinking Goyfs, un-threshing Mongooses, and staying out of range of burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Great advice about the Sylvan Libraries. It always felt 'wrong' to take them out. Now that I'm no longer boarding in Gut Shot, I'll got +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Gaddock Teeg and and either leave in a QP or Karakas (Karakas seems like the better overall choice, but I've died an agonizing death to Sulfuric Vortex, hence the inclusion of 1 QP as a GSZ target).
For those running Sylvan Safekeeper, are you maindecking it or sideboarding it? I imagine it is very solid against pretty much every deck in the field. Even combo decks games 2/3 usually bring in some targeted removal/bounce against our hate bears. I know this was discussed a few posts ago, but is the idea maindeck Safekeeper and Life from the Loam or to bring both in from the side? Meta decision? What decks is this good against (other than the fore-mentioned RUG)? I imagine it is good against mirror, UW, Merfolk, Goblins, combo decks with Slaughter Pact / Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth, Nic Fit / Junk (maybe not so much because of Pernicious Deed / Perish, Dauntless Escort is probably better here, although Dauntless just soaks up spot removal the turn before the mass removal is cast). Any other decks / advice?
Any decklists running Sylvan Safekeeper?
I wouldn't start Life from the Loam maindeck unless I was also running Safekeeper. Safekeeper can be stand-alone, and makes more sense right now instead of the 4th Mom (at least until RUG and Miracle aren't top dogs). Safekeeper can be either main or side; I haven't played Maverick seriously in the last 6 weeks to really know where it should be right now. Safekeeper can probably replace Gaddock Teeg vs RUG too, since the former provides more utility against RUG's removal. Last time I played in Vegas, I was anticipating a lot of RUG and ran Life from the Loam in the side to bring in. Having both helps in this matchup.
I'll admit to never having tested Sylvan Safekeeper in Maverick, but sacrificing lands against a deck designed to hit your manabase and disrupt you with soft counters seems terrible. Can someone give an example of a situation where Sylvan Safekeeper was a game-winner against RUG? I never seem to have "extra" lands against RUG.
As a general question, is it time to move back to Punishing Mav?
It seems like the meta has shifted and Tribal and Control are becoming more popular. It's been a while since I've seen a Punishing Mav build do well. A good Punishing Mav build would certainly take some tuning, moving away from Cavern of Souls and possibly Thalia. However, Punishing Fire is very good against Tribal and also as an alternative kill vs. slow control decks.
Another factor to consider in determining if the meta is ripe for Punishing Mav is the amount of graveyard hate. Punishing Mav does better in an environment with lower amounts of Surgical Extractions, Extirpates, Faerie Macarbes, Scavenging Oozes, Bojuka Bogs, etc. With the rise and apparent fall of Reanimator, perhaps graveyard hate is on the decline, but it may take a few weeks for this change to be reflected in sideboard allocations. Interestingly, Grafdigger's Cage does not effect Punishing Fire. Also, you can tap Grove of the Burnwillows in response to Extirpate, because tapping is a mana ability (avoids Split Second).
Overall, it seems like Thalia and Punishing Fire are at odds with each other. Obviously, it's a non-bo to play both. However, Thalia is very good against combo match-ups, whereas Punishing Fire is good vs. Tribal / swarm (the match-ups where Thalia is not so good). Both Thalia and Punishing Fire are good vs. RUG, and this is probably one of the few match-ups where I would want to run both.
The obvious solution is to cut Cavern of Souls, add some number of Grove of the Burnwillows, a Taiga, and a Life from the Loam (and possibly add a Birds of Paradise over a Heirarch -however, this creates Jitte issues) (You would add the lands at the expense the above-mentioned Caverns, some number of Wastelands and a Savannah), and play either Thalia/Punishing Fire maindeck while placing the other in the sideboard, depending upon your meta. The idea being that you would sideboard one for the other, with the possibility of playing both versus RUG.
Sure, 4 mana active - cast Knight of the Reliquary, pay :1: for Daze, but Knight is only a 3/3. Safekeeper provides immediate protection from Submerge, Bolt, and Mind Harness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
RE: Punishing Fires
The time is not ripe for its return, and I doubt it will be until RUG and Griselbrand are severely crippled. As it stands, they represent about 25% and 10% respectively of the average Legacy metagame. Tribal still can't trump Umezawa's Jitte. FWIW, Cavern of Souls is fairly lousy to begin with.
Thanks for the example. I can see how Sylvan Safekeeper would be good there. My problem, at least, is getting to the four-mana Knight of the Reliquary stage against RUG in the first place. Haven't played against RUG in over a month, so maybe things have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
It kind of got buried a couple of pages back, but Tacosnape suggested Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Would this be better, more flexible tech against RUG Delver? Matsu-Tribe Sniper can hold down two flipped Delvers at a time (can even kill them with Scryb Ranger), kills Esperblade's creatures like a boss, eats random Vendilion Cliques, and stops Griselbrand and Emrakul from attacking. You can even block a big ground-pounder like Knight of the Reliquary and give Matsu-Tribe Sniper protection with Mother of Runes to neutralize the threat.
I'm currently playing both Sylvan Safekeeper and Ulvenwald Tracker main and they've both been very good for me.
Against RUG, once you have a Knight down, you don't really need that many extra lands since Knight helps generate you mana (and you can always just Gaea's Cradle boost up if you really need to).
Tracker doesn't deal with Emrakul but man does it get nasty when you pair it with Moms. Even a 4/4 post combat Qasali (say you have a Noble behind it) starts to eat a fair amount of currently played Legacy creatures.
Wouldn't more copies of Scavenging ooze be ideal for the RUG matchup? You can neuter 2/3 of their creatures (Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf), and the life gain becomes very difficult for them to fight through. Additionally, tons of decks are using the GY in some manner (such as Snapcaster Mage) and ooze can always become a giant beater, so he's useful in most every matchup. As such, you can fit them into the main without taking up board space and can add even more board slots for the MU if you want. Additionally, he helps a ton in the mirror and gives you better chances vs. the GY decks G1.
In my meta and in general i'm very comfortable using Punishing Mav. Thalia is in SB for matchup shes needed, P.Fire adds some removal good vs tribal and little dangerous creatures (Delver, Guide, SFM ecc. ecc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Mind posting your decklist? Or your mana base at least? Is it pretty much like the pre-AVR/DKA lists? Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by TarmoX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
My list is :
4 Windswept Heath
2 Woodedfoothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
1 maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
SB (now)
3 REB
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Choke
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt