[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

But who could that handsome degenerate be?

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Haha, was just glad you made it down. I enjoyed giggling at each others hands/board states sitting next to one another a few rounds

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

I wandered back over during this, and the look on your face while looking at your 20 card hand said "I wish I had Tendrils". If I remember correctly, you didn't draw Shallow or Reanimate, just Goryo's, so you couldn't get back children, but you did draw brutality (which occupies the Tendrils slot).


I like Brutality, considering the room: I saw a lot of fair decks, and sniping a DRS or Thalia g1 feels pretty good. I've been running 2 in my stock list and it's been solid, if sometimes awkward. That being said, I think we both discussed a few situations where Tendrils would have just won you the game on the spot.

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Yeah, my constant results-oriented thinking on ToA isn't super helpful in the grand scheme of things. I can't recall it costing me games (this or prior list) but just meaning a delayed kill/opening a window for something strange to happen.
That's what it was; for whatever reason couldn't put my finger on why he didn't die that turn.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Unmask felt good in testing, and it looked good the few times I wandered over after my games.

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I feel sold on the Unmasks; I'll give the credit to Jblinder (believe the most recent to put the Unmask on the radar)

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

I think that if we go that route, we come down to the issue of not having something to pair with Mentor, as on it's own it is unreliable.

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Yes, needs some tinkering but I could see still mentoring off this list

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Good showing overall, there were quite a few times I regretted not playing the deck while watching you play, which was pretty much all day as we missed getting paired together, but got seated next to each other for multiple rounds. That being said...


But man, this play. Bro, come on. Good thing he drew like garbage, because he only had the Verdant Catacombs in hand when you flashed back Therapy. (flame over)

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Thanks, not stoked about the result but there's next time.
I told you dude, as soon as I said it I just glanced your direction hoping you weren't watching since I'd obviously sculpted things to just untap and win. (Step 1) formulate a plan to win (Step 2) do opposite of plan (Step 3) don't get punished and profit

ahhh i'm so sad i missed this event! Sounds like a blast. :)

Sounds like you had a blast - some good plays and.... not so good plays. ;) Reading reports always makes me want to play this deck again.

As far as a mentor board with this build goes - I think you can make it work.

4 Mentor
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Bob (or 3rd recruiter)
1 Plains
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Massacre

Or something like that anyway. Not huge on Chrome Mox with Mentor, but still probably passable). It's probably not as powerful as some of the other builds built with this transformation in mind (SDT, 2 Reanimate, etc.). But at least from gold fishing a bit, I think it could be viable.

Grats to Iowa crew taking the event down though!

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Originally Posted by .dk

ahhh i'm so sad i missed this event! Sounds like a blast. :)

Sounds like you had a blast - some good plays and.... not so good plays. ;) Reading reports always makes me want to play this deck again.

As far as a mentor board with this build goes - I think you can make it work.

4 Mentor
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Bob (or 3rd recruiter)
1 Plains
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Massacre

Or something like that anyway. Not huge on Chrome Mox with Mentor, but still probably passable). It's probably not as powerful as some of the other builds built with this transformation in mind (SDT, 2 Reanimate, etc.). But at least from gold fishing a bit, I think it could be viable.

Grats to Iowa crew taking the event down though!

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Was good to play the deck outside of our local but loose play was loose indeed.
Might toy with the mentor package here just to see but my first thought was if it would come up lacking for things like the missing SDTs and additional reanimate.

Yup, more power in Iowa now! Although Tim didn't really need a 2nd Pearl...just means more to lend for events :D

I just ordered some Unmasks. Willing to push that angle with the Onion Burst.

I played the BR-TinFins crossover build I suggested a couple pages ago last night, and it was much, much better than I expected. Went 4-0 and had like 5 turn 1s with protection. I think this build has some real potential! The protected turn 1 rate was insane, and Chancellor getting around Karakas and disrupting the opponent was huge. Here's the list:

// Lands - 13
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Children of Korlis
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask

// Sideboard:
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Serenity
3 Show and Tell
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tundra

I played Miracles on camera and after did an interview where I talked about the deck: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/123621155?t=1h03m

To recap the interview, I thought the unique thing that TinFins brings to the Chancellor tech from BR reanimator is the ability to win the turn you reanimate Griselbrand, and the Mentor sideboard which adds resilience. I think this list delivers on the promise, although it's unclear how good the Mentor and Shows are, not enough data. I really am uncertain about the Children - it could be that the situations where you need to cast Emrakul to not give your opponent another turn are less necessary since you have so many permanent reanimation spells and Chancellor actively disrupts the opponent. I am very certain that Tendrils is not necessary for similar reasons, and its overall versatility is worse than Children - it doesn't facilitate getting out of strange situations that being able to loop your deck with Emrakul does.

Fun tip - you can do up to 52 damage by casting every creature in your deck and taking another turn.

Quick match summary:
R1 - Infect
G1: He played a Glistener Elf, and I binned an Elesh Norn to cleanup step. He played a Blighted Agent and Inkmoth, and I Unmasked his Force, and Reanimated Norn, playing through his Daze with Lotus Petal. He played to Berserk outs, but I was careful about attacking and won.
-1 Unmask, -1 Dark Ritual, -2 Shallow Grave, -1 Children of Korlis; +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Thoughtseize
The thought with boarding is that Norn is usually better than swinging with a creature, and the games I lose are where he can have a quick, big infect turn. Plow should help. I anticipated Crop for Bog and maybe Surgical.
G2: I again used cleanup to discard Griselbrand, he produced an infect creature, then my Shallow Grave unexpectedly resolved on Griselbrand. He rotated for Karakas in response to an Unmask - turns out he cut the Bog. But that made my sequencing the next several turns pretty awkward. I ended up Exhuming a Chancellor every turn for the next 3 turns, and killed him with 5/6 fliers. Turns out they play good defense against Inkmoth.
1-0

R2 - Miracles
This was on camera - the link above. To recap:
G1: Brainstorm draws me into an unprotected t1 Reanimate on Griselbrand. He didn't have the Force, lucky me, and I produced Chancellors until he died.
-1 Unmask, -2 Dark Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Careful Study, -1 Emrakul, -1 Children, -2 Shallow Grave; +2 Show and Tell, +2 Mentor, +1 Tundra, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Serenity
The thought was to cut the extra mana and try to play through his disruption with more, different threats. Emrakul shouldn't be necessary to kill - they basically lose to Griselbrand and infinite dudes - and is vulnerable to Terminus so is worse than in other matchups.
G2: I kept a hand with a Thoughtseize, some lands, and some reanimation effects. I very luckily drew Show and Tell, Griselbrand, Careful Study off the top so got to sequence t1 Thoughtseize which got Flustered, t2 Show which got Flustered, t3 Study binning Chancellor and Griselbrand, Exhume. He died shortly thereafter.
2-0

R3 - Infect
He was sitting next to my first match, and joked that he was ready for me with Cage and Bog.
G1: He mulled to a 5 with no lands, I had a turn 1 with Chancellor protection.
Same boarding as before. I'm not afraid of Cage.
G2: He again mulliganned, and I had Griselbrand, Reanimate, Exhume, couple lands, Unmask, Chancellor. He played a land and passed, representing Force. I wanted to play around Bog and Force if possible by not using the cleanup step, so decided to play a land and hope to draw either a discard spell or a Study so I could use the Unmask on him instead of Unmasking myself and going for it. He again passed, and I drew a Study. His hand was Brainstorm, Pierce, Hierarch, 2 pump spells, Blighted Agent - so it didn't do anything and I won.
3-0

R4 - BR Reanimator
A known mirror. He won the die roll, not great.
G1: I mulled to 5 looking for disruption, found a 5 with no disruption but lands and a Reanimate. I figured it's better than a 4 because if he misplayed I could get his creature. He turn 1 produced Iona (Maindeck?! What a jerk) and I scooped.
-3 Exhume, -1 Dark Ritual, -1 Children of Korlis; +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Thoughtseize
The Swords to Plowshares should be a huge trump in this matchup, and he probably won't expect them.
G2: I have a hand that can turn 1 Shallow Grave Griselbrand, but he has 3x Chancellor so I pass with a fetch up for Brainstorm. He Entombed turn 1 and I did a little complaining about Iona. He did get Iona, Reanimated it, and I Plowed it after getting the Chancellor triggers out of the way with that Brainstorm, then went off. Get wrecked, buddy.
G3: I don't remember how exactly I won this game, but did have Chancellor turn 1. I think it was a quick kill.
4-0

Fascinating. Did you find yourself wishing you had the 14th land or Chrome Mox ever? Maybe it's not as big of a deal since this build is so much faster than that standard builds of the past. I'm very much looking forward to trying this...

In terms of Tendrils - I think Koby was spot on a while back that Collective Brutality just replaces it, if you ever wanted to run Tendrils to begin with. Some corner cases where Tendrils is still better, but I think the versatility makes up for it. So that said, looking at your list - I would consider replacing Elesh Norn in the main with Collective Brutality and moving Elesh Norn to the sideboard. But then, I've obviously played 0 games with it so I could be talking out of my ass.

I also love how different you think of what to sideboard out than I do. Really makes me think hard about my own plans. Thanks for keeping me challenged with my thinking with regards to this deck. :)

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Originally Posted by .dk

Fascinating. Did you find yourself wishing you had the 14th land or Chrome Mox ever? Maybe it's not as big of a deal since this build is so much faster than that standard builds of the past. I'm very much looking forward to trying this...

In terms of Tendrils - I think Koby was spot on a while back that Collective Brutality just replaces it, if you ever wanted to run Tendrils to begin with. Some corner cases where Tendrils is still better, but I think the versatility makes up for it. So that said, looking at your list - I would consider replacing Elesh Norn in the main with Collective Brutality and moving Elesh Norn to the sideboard. But then, I've obviously played 0 games with it so I could be talking out of my ass.

I also love how different you think of what to sideboard out than I do. Really makes me think hard about my own plans. Thanks for keeping me challenged with my thinking with regards to this deck. :)

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I didn't get in enough games to know if the 14th land would be better. The mana seemed to be ok so far. I think that Unmask and Study put enough pressure on the hand that Chrome Mox won't be consistent before Griselbrand, and it seems like with more permanent reanimation spells and more creatures it's reasonable to just pass in most cases. But again, haven't played against decks where putting a creature into play isn't enough (when that creature isn't Norn or Iona).

Oh sweet! I must have missed that discussion. Yeah that's a cool combo. I think Tendrils can be helpful in low-life situations, but Brutality is so much better before combo so it's probably better. Replacing Norn would be a meta call, and the result of finding which decks you're soft to. I could see cutting a Plow in the board if you make the swap you suggested? I would think Norn is extremely helpful maindeck against D&T because Prelate and Revoker can shut down comboing, and some decks like Infect and Elves can't beat Norn whereas Griselbrand has a chance of fizzling. Now whether that's worth a maindeck slot...not sure.

Haha happy to offer the challenge! The reason why I listed the sideboarding is to spark discussion - especially against miracles the sideboarding was really tough. How would you have boarded in these matchups?

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I didn't get in enough games to know if the 14th land would be better. The mana seemed to be ok so far. I think that Unmask and Study put enough pressure on the hand that Chrome Mox won't be consistent before Griselbrand, and it seems like with more permanent reanimation spells and more creatures it's reasonable to just pass in most cases. But again, haven't played against decks where putting a creature into play isn't enough (when that creature isn't Norn or Iona).

Oh sweet! I must have missed that discussion. Yeah that's a cool combo. I think Tendrils can be helpful in low-life situations, but Brutality is so much better before combo so it's probably better. Replacing Norn would be a meta call, and the result of finding which decks you're soft to. I could see cutting a Plow in the board if you make the swap you suggested? I would think Norn is extremely helpful maindeck against D&T because Prelate and Revoker can shut down comboing, and some decks like Infect and Elves can't beat Norn whereas Griselbrand has a chance of fizzling. Now whether that's worth a maindeck slot...not sure.

Haha happy to offer the challenge! The reason why I listed the sideboarding is to spark discussion - especially against miracles the sideboarding was really tough. How would you have boarded in these matchups?

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Makes sense about Chrome Mox. We've already got enough card disadvantage. Will have to play with the list a bit and see, I suppose. Maybe I'll try to goldfish and keep some stats like we did a year ago or so and keep track of turn 1's with double, single, and no protection along with mulligans or something. Might also help answer the fizzling question with this list as well, if it's worth having Elesh Norn maindeck. I think you're right, that it definitely wants to be in the 75 somewhere, though.

As far as sideboarding goes... I almost never side out Dark Rituals. I've always looked at the strength of the deck (maindeck, reactive, transformational) is it's speed and consistency. So, I tend to make them have it ASAP and Rituals are critical for that. And they also help with fizzles as well, to make sure you have mana for entomb/reanimation after drawing. In the Miracles match specifically, I would likely keep in all of the rituals as well as all of the Shallow Graves and Children (assuming that you're running a non-Emrakul way to win after drawing - Collective Brutality or the like). Shallow Graves for the same reason that you're boarding out Emrakul - hedges against Terminus. Since you're bringing in Show and Tell there, I would likely straight swap Exhumes for those. They are essentially doing the same thing - making a non-hasty fatty. Given your exact sideboard and maindeck configuration though, I probably would have brought in exactly the same cards, but made the changes with Dark Rituals, Shallow Graves, and Exhumes noted above. Maybe I'm undervaluing just drawing 7, and keeping access to another Chancellor or the like in hand or graveyard until they terminus our board.

At a glance, I could see the 2 Thoughtseize in your board being a Pithing Needle and Collective Brutality, both of which I would bring in vs. Miracles too. Brutality gives you a better reason to keep your in rituals, shallow graves, and children which makes what I was thinking above make a bit more sense (and just meshes better with how I tend to play the deck). Although, if you do this, then you need to leave in Emrakul as well to be able to loop. Sorry, this is a bit stream of consciousness as I'm typing this, so it's not very well thought out. :)

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I played the BR-TinFins crossover build I suggested a couple pages ago last night, and it was much, much better than I expected. Went 4-0 and had like 5 turn 1s with protection. I think this build has some real potential! The protected turn 1 rate was insane, and Chancellor getting around Karakas and disrupting the opponent was huge....

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In your opinion, from your list would it even be worth buying underground seas?

I've been playing actual BR TinFins for a while now and after looking at your list, how big was actually playing blue over red. Without force of will, daze, or any other counter back up your only blue cards were brainstorm, careful study, and SB show and tell. I'm not doubting the overall power of brainstorm/fetch, or the ability for show and tell to dodge everything containment priest, but careful study is worse than faithless looting.

Is the power level or brainstorm worth ~$1000 (underground seas and a tundra)?

There is also not a ton of it running around but ensaring bridge is a reason to keep tendrils in your 75. I have had a match boarding it in after seeing a bridge g2.

Very nice morph. If I weren't on Dark Thresh I'd be buying some Unmasks and sleeving this bad boy up. Well done.

About the Mentor plan, I like .dk's idea a lot about 4x Mentor and some Recruiter (actually 2/1 Recruiter/Bob sounds excellent in theory). I've played the transform in Reanimator, and having those extra copies really matters. Opponents keep in their removal usually, so having a second copy isn't bad and makes it more reliable. It's basically committing more to the man-plan, and without testing I think that's better than the Mentor/Show split.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Very nice morph. If I weren't on Dark Thresh I'd be buying some Unmasks and sleeving this bad boy up. Well done.

About the Mentor plan, I like .dk's idea a lot about 4x Mentor and some Recruiter (actually 2/1 Recruiter/Bob sounds excellent in theory). I've played the transform in Reanimator, and having those extra copies really matters. Opponents keep in their removal usually, so having a second copy isn't bad and makes it more reliable. It's basically committing more to the man-plan, and without testing I think that's better than the Mentor/Show split.

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I've only goldfished that transform to date - I've yet to play any games with it. Rare that I actually play this deck anymore. ;) In older builds, show and tell wasn't so great due to the slim number of targets. However, going up to 4 griselbrand in particular along with 4-7 other targets is pretty attractive. It might be better than overloading on Mentor as it leverages your maindeck plan a bit better with this list.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

In your opinion, from your list would it even be worth buying underground seas?

I've been playing actual BR TinFins for a while now and after looking at your list, how big was actually playing blue over red. Without force of will, daze, or any other counter back up your only blue cards were brainstorm, careful study, and SB show and tell. I'm not doubting the overall power of brainstorm/fetch, or the ability for show and tell to dodge everything containment priest, but careful study is worse than faithless looting.

Is the power level or brainstorm worth ~$1000 (underground seas and a tundra)?

There is also not a ton of it running around but ensaring bridge is a reason to keep tendrils in your 75. I have had a match boarding it in after seeing a bridge g2.

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It's hard to argue with Brainstorm. Also possible that 4 Careful Study isn't quite right either - as phazonmutant said, its not like that list is tuned at all. Seems very possible that some number of Ponder may be correct as well. I mean, in the current "stock" list of Tin Fins, the only thing you're playing blue for is Ponder and Brainstorm. Both of which help you recover if you've been disrupted - one of the main draws of blue over red. If the argument for red is that faithless looting is better than careful study, I don't think that holds weight when brainstorm is really better than both of them. That said, I don't think we really talk about this deck from a budget standpoint very frequently - if you find another color combination that seems to work and is easier on the wallet, by all means! That constraint may lead you to find new ideas and different ways of solving problems. At the very worst it can spur good discussion.

And for bridge, Tendrils or Collective Brutality. Although, almost every deck that would be bringing in Bridge, you're definitely bringing in Serenity to deal with that or other pieces they throw down. So you still have answers.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

In your opinion, from your list would it even be worth buying underground seas?

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Yes, because it's useful to own Underground Seas.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Very nice morph. If I weren't on Dark Thresh I'd be buying some Unmasks and sleeving this bad boy up. Well done.

About the Mentor plan, I like .dk's idea a lot about 4x Mentor and some Recruiter (actually 2/1 Recruiter/Bob sounds excellent in theory). I've played the transform in Reanimator, and having those extra copies really matters. Opponents keep in their removal usually, so having a second copy isn't bad and makes it more reliable. It's basically committing more to the man-plan, and without testing I think that's better than the Mentor/Show split.

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I don't think there's room in this build for more than 5ish pieces that take you off the main reanimation plan so not a fan of the Recruiters. I could definitely see Mentor being better, but I wanted to try Show again. As .dk mentioned, it's been bad before because there weren't enough creatures, but that's changed in this build.

.dk - I was thinking about it overnight, and I think you're right to swap the Elesh Norn with Brutality maindeck. That would put my sideboard at: 2 Plow, 2 Serenity, 1 Tundra, 2 Mentor, 3 Show, 1 Elesh, 1 Iona, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Top
I liked having the Thoughtseizes as more proactive disruption. The deck is pretty light on disruption.

Yes, with the added fatty density I fully agree Show and Tell is fine. I was just saying that the Mentor plan gets better with more Mentors. The Recruiters could well be too cute, and Bob by himself does not get there.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Yes, with the added fatty density I fully agree Show and Tell is fine. I was just saying that the Mentor plan gets better with more Mentors. The Recruiters could well be too cute, and Bob by himself does not get there.

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Yes, it does. To be clear though - that board plan I suggested was not for phazonmutant's list. Either a stock Tin Fins list or the Unmask versions that Kai and Acclimation were talking about above. In the stock list, the recruiters are pretty great as we run more lands in that build (and even potentially cavern of souls - it's also human), so they are easier to cast. Also works as a shuffle effect for SDT and Brainstorm.

I don't think there is really room in the Chancellor list to overload on Mentors. And very possible that Show and Tell is as good or better there anyway. Depending on what you want in the board, I could see a 3/3 split of Show and Tell and Mentor there - both of which are 3 mana potent threats.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

Yes, because it's useful to own Underground Seas.

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True, Sea's open up a lof of legacy to me, but I first sleeved up this deck with blood crypts so I'm happy with whatever dual I actually have at the moment.

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Originally Posted by .dk

I've only goldfished that transform to date - I've yet to play any games with it. Rare that I actually play this deck anymore. ;) In older builds, show and tell wasn't so great due to the slim number of targets. However, going up to 4 griselbrand in particular along with 4-7 other targets is pretty attractive. It might be better than overloading on Mentor as it leverages your maindeck plan a bit better with this list.

It's hard to argue with Brainstorm. Also possible that 4 Careful Study isn't quite right either - as phazonmutant said, its not like that list is tuned at all. Seems very possible that some number of Ponder may be correct as well. I mean, in the current "stock" list of Tin Fins, the only thing you're playing blue for is Ponder and Brainstorm. Both of which help you recover if you've been disrupted - one of the main draws of blue over red. If the argument for red is that faithless looting is better than careful study, I don't think that holds weight when brainstorm is really better than both of them. That said, I don't think we really talk about this deck from a budget standpoint very frequently - if you find another color combination that seems to work and is easier on the wallet, by all means! That constraint may lead you to find new ideas and different ways of solving problems. At the very worst it can spur good discussion.

And for bridge, Tendrils or Collective Brutality. Although, almost every deck that would be bringing in Bridge, you're definitely bringing in Serenity to deal with that or other pieces they throw down. So you still have answers.

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Yeah, maybe the more draw/counter build is just settling in for the inevitable sometimes things go wrong, and will look to build from there.

I didn't even think of serenity postboard, I've been too comfortable in my Rakdos ways that every transforms into sneak attack. When playing TinFins, do you find Serenity is too slow for you to really get going? Or is it again just a matter of, UB is going to take it a little slower to brainstorm/ponder/combo with force back up?

As a matter of fact I guess I already know the answer to that question, I'm just inexperienced with actually playing the UB variant.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Yes, it does. To be clear though - that board plan I suggested was not for phazonmutant's list. Either a stock Tin Fins list or the Unmask versions that Kai and Acclimation were talking about above. In the stock list, the recruiters are pretty great as we run more lands in that build (and even potentially cavern of souls - it's also human), so they are easier to cast. Also works as a shuffle effect for SDT and Brainstorm.

I don't think there is really room in the Chancellor list to overload on Mentors. And very possible that Show and Tell is as good or better there anyway. Depending on what you want in the board, I could see a 3/3 split of Show and Tell and Mentor there - both of which are 3 mana potent threats.

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Ah, I could actually pay attention when I read! :D That makes sense.

@Greg - that list looks rad. I've been toying with Chancellors a bit in Cockatrice but I like your take on it better.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

@Greg - that list looks rad. I've been toying with Chancellors a bit in Cockatrice but I like your take on it better.

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Thanks! Let me know how it goes. I plan on playing this list again next Monday, get in some more reps.

@phazonmutant I keep looking at your list and I can't help that the main can be BR since the only true blue card is brainstorm (studies go to looting naturally). I am biased by the situation since Badlands are the only duals I own and will own for any appreciable future.

My understanding, is that brainstorm is mostly to reload after firing and running into some countermagic. With that in mind, how do people feel about top? Slower sure, and not the same as draw 3 put 2 back, but it does provide some repeatable ability to set up. And maybe not 4 even tops, maybe the list can bump to 2 tops, and some more discard.

The show and tell might be hard to argue with out of the sideboard but if on a mentor plan, 4 mentor seems like I find 1 by turn 3 where as 2 mentors could never show up.

I'm just curious at this point. And the best answer may still be U. Sea or bust but the hopes not dead.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

@phazonmutant I keep looking at your list and I can't help that the main can be BR since the only true blue card is brainstorm (studies go to looting naturally). I am biased by the situation since Badlands are the only duals I own and will own for any appreciable future.

My understanding, is that brainstorm is mostly to reload after firing and running into some countermagic. With that in mind, how do people feel about top? Slower sure, and not the same as draw 3 put 2 back, but it does provide some repeatable ability to set up. And maybe not 4 even tops, maybe the list can bump to 2 tops, and some more discard.

The show and tell might be hard to argue with out of the sideboard but if on a mentor plan, 4 mentor seems like I find 1 by turn 3 where as 2 mentors could never show up.

I'm just curious at this point. And the best answer may still be U. Sea or bust but the hopes not dead.

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I would goldfish a few hands with the "current" list to get a better feel for Brainstorm in this deck. It's definitely not just to reload after a thwarted attempt to go off. It can do that, but it can also just hand you wins out of nowhere. I've personally won off a keep with Petal, Land, Goryo/Grave, and Brainstorm by hitting Ritual and Entomb off the top.

Top is certainly a great card, but for me the speed and mana cost make it not even close. It's an OK substitute for Ponder and plays well with Mentor, but I don't think slower is the direction we really want to go right now. Between the penetration of Chalice and Deathrite, and a likely rise in grave hate due to BR Reanimator, we really need to get back to being a Turn0/1 deck. I think we've got the potential to be as fast as BR (or faster since we can kill immediately), AND be more consistent. And have all the hottest chicks and nicest cars and best booze.