[Primer] Nic Fit

Haven't been posting here much bc discord, but I wanted to mention something potentially important about moving towards Living Wish (which I don't think is a bad option at all, incidentally, as long as the deck space works out). If we opt for Wish over Leap, then I think that puts Starfield back on the table as an option. Starfield + Deed is still incredibly strong, let's not forget -- we just moved away from Deed a bit with the advent of Leap+Souls. Starfield additionally lets us have a way to get back big enchantments if something bad happens -- discard, counter, random destruction (unlikely but possible).

If Starfield is an option again, then we might want to consider looking into how the math changes if we run some number of Cast Outs, which can be cycled cheaply and then returned with Nyx. I'm not sure on Cast Out since it doesn't feel super relevant most of the time, I'm just asking the question since it would let us play a smaller deck, functionally.

Side relevance: if we move to Wish over Leap, that also lets us have Green Sun targets again, which in turn makes us want to run the full 4 Zeniths again, which also would increase our consistency a bit.

There's definitely a lot to like that -- but there is also the downside that without Leap, we are substantially less broken. It becomes much harder to get the 2nd Rector trigger, which is something that I think needs to be a concern in the math. Nyx Fit has been successful because it is efficient at resolving not one trigger, but two -- assembling a lock of some kind to functionally end the game. Just one trigger is likely not sufficient against most opponents.

A couple brief mentions for the discussion -- as I've mentioned in the discord, I made a large number of changes to the build I was tinkering around with, including three which have all overperformed: a miser's Crop Rot, the Starved Rusalka, and maindecking Sandwurm Convergence over Cruel Reality.

I think that Sandwurm is better maindeck because of two reasons: it forms a backup lock with Dovescape against spell-heavy decks, and it combos well with Evolutionary Leap. Now, if we end up moving away from Leap, that might change my opinion there -- but, we'll see. Sandwurm has been very good for me, while Cruel was always kind of mediocre in my personal experience. Of course, Cruel is another curse for Bitterheart, so, if we end up with like 3 Rector 1 Bitterheart maindeck, that might be a compelling reason to stick with Cruel, as well.

I'm unsure about Starfield and Cast Out. It makes the curve even more top heavy than it already is.

As for Living Wish - I like the engine function of Evolutionary Leap, so I don't know if I want to drop Leap for Wish. I mean, if we start adding more creatures we'll want a creature back-up plan and say a QPM to turn GSZ into interaction and so on. At what point do we devolve back to Junk Fit with some Rectors and crazy enchantments (hyperboling a bit here, obviously)?

It might be the better plan since it gives you a secondary angle of attack, but then consistency for the combo just goes out the window. You'll probably end up with a deck that's both a bad Junk Fit list and a bad Nyx Fit list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm unsure about Starfield and Cast Out. It makes the curve even more top heavy than it already is.

As for Living Wish - I like the engine function of Evolutionary Leap, so I don't know if I want to drop Leap for Wish. I mean, if we start adding more creatures we'll want a creature back-up plan and say a QPM to turn GSZ into interaction and so on. At what point do we devolve back to Junk Fit with some Rectors and crazy enchantments (hyperboling a bit here, obviously)?

It might be the better plan since it gives you a secondary angle of attack, but then consistency for the combo just goes out the window. You'll probably end up with a deck that's both a bad Junk Fit list and a bad Nyx Fit list.

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Entirely possible, but, leave no stone unturned imo.

Of note: Garruk Relentless does help turn a Rector into a second Rector, along with his other duties of killing Deathrites, blocking forever, and making fodder for Leap (if we stay on Leap). It is also worth considering that in a more traditional junk list that has a Nyx core transplanted into it, that Diabolic Intent (which also sets up the 2nd rector) gets much, much, MUCH better.

Like, this was one of my earliest actually competitive builds, which my friend Steve got 12th at an SCG with in 2012:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Sun Titan

1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

sb:
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Raking Canopy
3 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Nether Void

We look at something like that now and kind of recoil a bit (or at least I do) -- but it did work, and there might be lessons to be learned in it -- not the least of which being that the deck space DOES exist for a Nyx core to fit into a junk shell.

Perhaps we should just jam 4 Diabolic Intent... We have enough fodder. Demonic Tutor is an ok-ish card.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Academy Rector
1 Bitterheart Witch

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Garruk Relentless

2 Mirri's Guile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Cruel Reality

2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

sb::
1 Karakas
1 High Market
1 Academy Rector
1 Walking Ballista
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares

This is something like what I'm thinking. Super rough, might be awful, but kind of encapsulates the idea a bit better (in a modern context) of a Nyx core within a Junk shell.

Hey,

I know everybody is speaking of Nyx Fit but as you have also expressed "feelings" about Living Wish, I took the opportunity to jump in to get a few feedbacks/ideas:
1) About the MD
2) About targets' option for Living Wish

BANT Nic Fit

1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Sylvan Library
3 Ground Seal

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Perilous Research

2 Council of Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Living Wish
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons -> For liliana deck and other edict type of decks
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic -> Good stuff
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Mystic Enforcer -> Strix / Marit / Grisel
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth -> Liliana / discard / burn / Tempo
SB: 1 Karakas -> Unfair demon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dragonlord Dromoka -> Tempo decks (almost unbeatable if resolved)
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage -> Combo deck
SB: 1 Trygon Predator -> Enchant / Arto
SB: 1 Disenchant

This deck is in test and so far showing promising results.

Any food for thought would be much appreciated !

Regards,

Ralf

I can see where Intent has value, but the 2nd copy is much worse than the first, the third and fourth are worse than that. So probably only one is viable.

I was actually thinking Enlightened Tutor, Navsi had a similar idea with Sterling Grove. One is lower on the curve, the other offers some protection and synergy with Starfield. Maybe a mix of both would be proper.

From a quick look through enchantments, there's a new card Legion's Landing that could be tutored for a creature to Leap with, without filling a creature slot in the deck, similar to what Lingering Souls is doing, except you could tutor for it. It could also come back from Starfield, and eventually flips to win the Dovescape war, though I imagine it wouldn't flip often. If you go this route you could include Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth for ramp, as they're pretty safe if sitting on a basic. Doing so helps with Leap hits and makes them more powerful, it also means you would need fewer GSZ's. I question if you would even want Vet at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hey,

I know everybody is speaking of Nyx Fit but as you have also expressed "feelings" about Living Wish, I took the opportunity to jump in to get a few feedbacks/ideas:

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I've been playing with both Tracker's Instincts and Search for Azcanta lately as alternative CA engines. At first I tried a mashup, but the deeper down the rabbit hole I've gone, the more it's become obvious that these are two different builds. I like them both as BUG options, but I'll discuss the Azcanta build here.

A loose skeleton for the deck probably looks like: 23 lands, 22 spells, 16 creatures.

I think a crucial part of keeping the threat density high enough though, is in using spells that convert to creatures. GSZ is obvious, but more is needed. One thing to keep in mind here is that Tireless Tracker loses a lot of equity. Azcanta represents a 4 mana/turn investment, which is equal to 2 clues/turn. It's more mana than Tracker is, so the two stack poorly. It also places more pressure on keeping the rest of the curve low, as 7 mana means you only have 3 to Azcanta+play. So your cards need to be in the 1-2 range.

So, how this is relevant to your post... I think Living Wish is a key card as it's a spell that exchanges for a creature.

Here's what I'm thinking for an initial decklist
23 Lands
My usuals

16 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Dark Confidant
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness

22 Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Living Wish
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Collective Brutality
2 Crop Rotation

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lost Legacy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle

Alrighty. It's wednesday - card evaluation and starting on the list day

Our requirements up until now (compiling from several posts here):
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 4 at the latest 80% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger if undisrupted by turn 3 at the latest 50% of the time
- Deck should be capable of resolving a Rector trigger against a single piece of disruption by turn 4 at the latest 50% of the time
- Single rector trigger should end the game against at least 40% of the metagame
- Single rector trigger should put us heavily advantaged against at least 80% of the metagame
- Two rector triggers should end the game against at least 80% of the metagame
- Three rector triggers should end the game against 99% of the metagame
- Deck should should be able to stabilize / disrupt until turn 4 against each meta deck 60% of the time
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards

The list isn't quite comprehensive, but so be it. We're still missing concrete requirements concerning our mana curve and disruption/interaction suite. Let's call it @6 discard, 6 spotremoval and 3 sweepers. So:
- The list must contain at least 6 discard spells
- The list must contain at least 6 spotremoval spells
- The list must contain at least 3 sweepers

It probably isn't exactly on the money, but I want to keep this project on track. Time to start working on a list.

Edit: The "Deck should be able to do X"-requirements are basically covered by the "The list must contain X" requirements, so let's simplify our requirements model to the following list:
- The manabase must consist of at least 22 lands
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial green sources
- The manabase must contain at least 14 initial black sources
- The manabase must contain at least 13 initial white sources
- Single rector trigger should end the game against at least 40% of the metagame
- Single rector trigger should put us heavily advantaged against at least 80% of the metagame
- Two rector triggers should end the game against at least 80% of the metagame
- Three rector triggers should end the game against 99% of the metagame
- Deck should should be able to stabilize / disrupt until turn 4 against each meta deck 60% of the time
- The list must contain at least 12 "copies" of Academy Rector
- The list must contain at least 12 sac outlets
- The list must contain at least 13 ramp cards
- The list must contain at least 6 discard spells
- The list must contain at least 6 spotremoval spells
- The list must contain at least 3 sweepers

Getting undisrupted Rector triggers to happen with any consistency is going to be the difficult point.

If we're looking at a standard Leap list:

4x Explorer, Zenith, Leap, Souls, Therapy
2x Guile/Library/Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Tower
1x Intent, Rusalka, Arbor
23 Lands, 8 fetches - 14/14/14

P(Enchant) on turn 3 (9 cards drawn) is 47%. On the draw (10 cards seen), it's 56%.

If we want to get our Play-side turn 3 numbers above 50%, we need one additional filtering, tutoring or ramp option.

Note that our odds are actually lower, since if we are going off on turn three we have a lot more trouble actually trying to Leap for Rector or cast card advantage spells, since they put more constraints on our mana. Just because we have 15% odds of being able to activate Leap (combined odds of a Leap in hand, creature available, and green mana up) doesn't mean we'll have the mana to do so and also find a Rector. However, trying to model that is not something I have the time to do currently.

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The difficult bit is going to be getting turn-4 rector odds above 80%. I think this requirement is a bit of a stretch.

The Leap list above currently has a turn 4 play-side P(Enchant) of 59%. On the draw, it's at 66%.

Adding a single Vessel or two Truths puts us at 62%. Adding an Intent puts us at 64%.

If we want to get to 80%, the fewest cards required is something like:

+1 Guile/Library (to 3)
+1 Vessel of Nascency
+1 Intent (to 2)
+2 Eladamri's Call
+1 fetchland (to 9, 24 lands)

This puts us at a 79.6% turn-4 P(Enchant) on the play.

It also puts us at the following list:

4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Unused Slot

9 Fetchland
6 Basic Land
6 Dual Land
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Flex land slot

This puts us at 4 unused slots, which means we have space for the actual haymaker enchantments and basically zero interaction with the opponent at all. This is pretty clearly not acceptable. I don't think we will be able to get our turn 4 odds this high without the deckbuilding impact being too high. The best I can get is something like this:

3 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Zenith
2 Leap
2 Souls
4 Therapy
4 Living Wish
1 Intent
1 Rusalka
4 Guile/Library
1 Vessel
1 Arbor
6 unused slot

10 Fetchland
6 Basic
6 Dual
2 Tower

T4 on Play P(Enchant): 79.4%

This gives us a whole 2-3 slots for additional interaction, and lets us Wish for more interaction in an emergency. However it also looks clunky as all hell.

If we're willing to go down to 75% T4 odds, we get a lot more leeway and can do something like this:

3 Rector
4 Explorer
4 Zenith
1 Leap
2 Souls
4 Therapy
4 Wish
1 Intent
1 Rusalka
2 Library/Guile
1 Vessel
1 Arbor
10 unused slot
-
9 fetch
6 basic
6 dual
2 tower
-
61 cards, 23 lands
T4 on-play P(enchant): 74.9%

This gives us enough slots to play 3-4 haymaker enchantments, a couple sweepers, and some actual removal spells, and Wish to supplement our disruption if we need it to. It also puts our turn-3 odds at 61%, though this is probably actually exaggerated because fitting a Wish into turns 1-2 is a bit awkward. It's probably easier to Wish for a Rector by turn 3 than it is to Leap into one by turn three though, I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Getting undisrupted Rector triggers to happen with any consistency is going to be the difficult point.

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With DRS / Snapcaster being everywhere, one should have a closer look to "Ground Seal" as it pretty makes sure that your Rector will trigger no matter what.
Good news is the card replaces itself.
Bad news is the card doesn't bring anything relevant to the board in many cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

With DRS / Snapcaster being everywhere, one should have a closer look to "Ground Seal" as it pretty makes sure that your Rector will trigger no matter what.
Good news is the card replaces itself.
Bad news is the card doesn't bring anything relevant to the board in many cases.

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Hmmm, it also schuts down Surgical Extraction and Life from the Loam.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

I've run it in the sideboard before. It's solid. Might be more difficult to fit in if we're on a Wishboard already though.

To further add to my thoughts:

I don't think abzan is at his best for Nyx Fit.
Bant seems to be an overall better choice.

1) you replace GSZ that does nothing else than fetching veteran by brainstorm + ponder which is arguably better

2) You get rid of Cabal Therapy and start playing Perilous Research.

3) Omniscience + wish for Emrakul is a new strong plan

4) Depending on your blue card number you can play FOW

Etc...

Those are just ideas but...

PS: not to mention you have access to Supreme Verdict etc...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

To further add to my thoughts:

I don't think abzan is at his best for Nyx Fit.
Bant seems to be an overall better choice.

1) you replace GSZ that does nothing else than fetching veteran by brainstorm + ponder which is arguably better

2) You get rid of Cabal Therapy and start playing Perilous Research.

3) Omniscience + wish for Emrakul is a new strong plan

4) Depending on your blue card number you can play FOW

Etc...

Those are just ideas but...

PS: not to mention you have access to Supreme Verdict etc...

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1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

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I was just starting to try to put Nyx into Bant or Esper (veteran would switch for sol lands..).
Phyrexian tower gives 2 colorless if we are not playing black. I stay confortable with it.
We would have access to show and tell which is a strong enabler for our hay maker enchantements.

Not sur it can work, but need to investigate it a bit...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

1. Bant is way less consistent at accelerating our mana. We don't have Phyrexian Tower, all our sacrifice outlets cost mana except Therapy.

2. Therapy and Tower can't be responded to. Using Perilous Research makes our Rector triggers vulnerable to STP (not good) and also to countermagic like Spell Pierce. It gets even worse when we can't spend 4 mana for a Rector trigger because every way of saccing him costs us more mana.

3. Omni is way less good than the other options. It needs another card in hand in order to win the game. All our other Rector trigger options already win us the game if the trigger resolves, or close to, without requiring a combo to avoid being completely dead. Omni is also wayyy harder to cast than all the Abzan enchantments - 10 mana is a lot more than 8, and triple blue is hard. There's a reason Sneak went for RSD and Bellower over Griselbrand.

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I beg to differ.

1) Living wish does fetch Tower for you (and you'll find LW faster with 8 cantrips). Brainstorm/ponder makes 1 lander opening hands somehow more keepable. When midgame you draw your GSZ again after having resolved 1 or 2 veteran trigger already, you look sad. Trying to justify GSZ > Brainstorm/Ponder will be very very hard. One has only one application and gets worse (in this deck because there is no target to GSZ) as the game drags on while the others are "constant".

Playing Supreme Verdict says fuck you "permission" (spell pierce, counterspell, fow, what have you).

2) Your are correct but instead of playing proactively you can play reactively (which blue is built for); meaning that you shouldn't seek to sac your rector in any case (match dependant). It can occupy a board for many turn if needed. Perilous research (as I play it in my BANT control Fit deck) has several uses. Obviously you want to use it on veteran/rector but sometimes, using it in response to a wasteland or a removal on one of your permanent is almost as good as it gets.
-> Playing 3 supreme verdict can also be seen as a sacrificing effect for Rector.
-> Rapid Hybridization could also be a (certainly bad) idea for example

3) No. that is "bullshit" (no flame here). I played against Nyx fit creator (it happens we know each other) and he did resolved one Rector's trigger and I still didn't lose. This is not enough, you need a lock (2 enchantments). I won't say omni is better but let's look at the fact:
- 8 cantrips to help you find a wish
- 4 perilous research/Ground Seal can also "dig" for a wish (and when omni is in play, I'm pretty sure you just go for it as you don't need your land anymore)
- whatever cards you might be playing to increase consistency.

Finally, let's be real ? How is not omni + emrakul just plain better, a vast majority of the time, than every other "combo" you propose ? None presents a lock + a fast kill when sacrifice 6 permanents and take 15 to the dome, without interaction (uncounterable, play another turn), does... (80 % of the time it will be a oneshot kill)

At last, OMNI + any other enchantment is also nice. (you can play 3 threats MD for example: omni + sandwurm + XXX). The other 2 would be the B plan when the omni+kukul plan is disrupted.

So, to conclude:

ABZAN is not BANT
One requires to play proactively, the other reactively.

As would Arian say, before tearing apart ideas and potential options; please leave no stone unturned.


PS: I don't play Nyx Fit. I'm just giving ideas. Relax.
PS 2: Sorry if my post looks rude, after reading it again, the tone I use is a little bit too aggressive to my taste.
PS 3: Oh boy you can also play JTMS / Karakas for Kukul loop...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I beg to differ.

3) No. that is "bullshit" (no flame here). I played against Nyx fit creator (it happens we know each other) and he did resolved one Rector's trigger and I still didn't lose. This is not enough, you need a lock (2 enchantments). I won't say omni is better but let's look at the fact:
- 8 cantrips to help you find a wish
- 4 perilous research/Ground Seal can also "dig" for a wish (and when omni is in play, I'm pretty sure you just go for it as you don't need your land anymore)
- whatever cards you might be playing to increase consistency.

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Agreed that we shouldn't leave interesting stones unturned. I'm curious in general about a more reactive blue nic fit shell with a large Wishboard - whether it be Nyx or not. At first I was skeptical, but it sounds like a way to include more interaction while keeping a high number of wincons. I'm just doubtful about improved combo matchups (I'm not of the mind that just having FoW is enough).

That said, while I haven't been actively playing lately, I did manage to play a large number (80+) of matches of Nyx Fit in competitive leagues online during the summer/fall. The number of games that 1 rector activation isn't enough, is incredibly small. Splendor and Dovescape are just so incredibly powerful. Omni-Emrakul in itself still requires "more than 1 activation" due to having to manage to have Emrakul in hand undisrupted, and on your turn. It seems much weaker against hand disruption due to that. Maybe there are other advantages that are difficult to consider, such as being able to cast Deed for free and having a large amount of mana free to pop it.

I still think that a huge gain for playing Nyx Fit is the added removal (Swords/Brutality) and Souls. Cheapo removal clears out Deathrites and shores up so many creature matchups such as Elves. Souls does so much blocker/chump work and shores up Lands.

One day perhaps I'll get around to trying a junk quad-Dovescape list. Souls, GSZ both work so well with it, plus perhaps a few copies of Gideon. I've just fallen in love with Dovescape. Suddenly you have Souls working...triple? as blocks/chumps, attackers, and end-game 6-token powerhouse. GSZ similarly gains another angle in being an uncounterable token maker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Agreed that we shouldn't leave interesting stones unturned. I'm curious in general about a more reactive blue nic fit shell with a large Wishboard - whether it be Nyx or not. At first I was skeptical, but it sounds like a way to include more interaction while keeping a high number of wincons. I'm just doubtful about improved combo matchups (I'm not of the mind that just having FoW is enough).

That said, while I haven't been actively playing lately, I did manage to play a large number (80+) of matches of Nyx Fit in competitive leagues online during the summer/fall. The number of games that 1 rector activation isn't enough, is incredibly small. Splendor and Dovescape are just so incredibly powerful. Omni-Emrakul in itself still requires "more than 1 activation" due to having to manage to have Emrakul in hand undisrupted, and on your turn. It seems much weaker against hand disruption due to that. Maybe there are other advantages that are difficult to consider, such as being able to cast Deed for free and having a large amount of mana free to pop it.

I still think that a huge gain for playing Nyx Fit is the added removal (Swords/Brutality) and Souls. Cheapo removal clears out Deathrites and shores up so many creature matchups such as Elves. Souls does so much blocker/chump work and shores up Lands.

One day perhaps I'll get around to trying a junk quad-Dovescape list. Souls, GSZ both work so well with it, plus perhaps a few copies of Gideon. I've just fallen in love with Dovescape. Suddenly you have Souls working...triple? as blocks/chumps, attackers, and end-game 6-token powerhouse. GSZ similarly gains another angle in being an uncounterable token maker.

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Blue and White give you some number of interesting options to fight back combo decks:
- Flusterstorm/Counter (not accessible through LW)
- Permanent hates (Meddling mage/Prelate/Canonist/Gaddock/Glen Elendra/SCM to replay counter etc...) all accessible through LW (some in ABZAN also)

I'm not saying BANT > ABZAN, I'm just saying in theory BANT > ABZAN because the latter forces you to run suboptimal cards in many situations.

Omni + Emrakul (via Wish or 1 in MD & 1 in SB) is just another wincon. I got that Dove + Splendor is a nice combo but :
- Splendor alone is just a better humility
- Dove is symmetric and does not deal with what is on the board (and actually requires curse to be OP)

Velocity/killing fast is a thing in real tournament or you'll end up drawing winnable games.

I don't have a list but if someone buys into the concept I would look into a mix of:

3-4 Force of Will
3-4 Ground Seal
2-3 Supreme Verdict
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 STP
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Perilous research
3-4 Living Wish
0-2 Blessed Alliance
3-4 Rector
0-2 JTMS
1 Omni
1-2 Big Enchantments

20 lands (at least 6 basics maybe)

Sideboard:
1 Kukul
1 Karakas
1 Tower
2-3 Fluster
1 Glen Elendra
1 Rec Sage
1 Disenchant
2 Path to Exil
etc...

Ofc, it has to be tested, tweaked until you are satisfied with what you have.

NB:
1) Perilous Research has something very particular because it is instant. I'm testing the card since a few weeks and the most notable thing is that you truly get to play first with 2 more basics and full mana detap whereas usually with CT your opponent gets to play first with full mana + 2 basics.

2) Perilous replaces itself + your veteran (you draw 2 cards) whereas CT + veteran is not always "on par" (If you miss the first leg and your oppo has 2 basics, you are already down 1 card, except if you take 2+ cards from your opponent's hand)

3) Being instant puts the risk on your opponent. With CT you can miss the first leg, but with Perilous it is reversed: your opponent is taking a risk to spend a card on 1 of your permanent just to see you use Perilous in response. Then he is the one down 1 card.

4) Perilous is 2 mana. CT is 1. This is a huge drawback sometimes.

2 cents from a guy who played Omni-Emrakul for a long time, before the Nyx versions (not that I make authority or anything...):
- I haven't played heavy enchantments versions, but it seems to me that you need 2 enchantments to lock your opponent. To me Ralf's feedback makes sense.
- Omni "on its own" can be nice enough. Emmy is definitely the win-con, but the slamming the rest of your hand is not to be underestimated.
- I haven't played Evo Leap yet, but with one on the board, it should not be too hard to find Emmy. Unless I am dreaming? I haven't really replayed the deck since Top was banned, but if I did, I would include EvoLeap, not necessarily Wish though.

On another topic: I think Arian said that the interaction (Starfield of Nyx / Deed) are underrated. I tend to agree here.