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Okay, that DEFINITELY doesn't belong in the landstill thread. No standstill and no removal besides STP.
That being said, I don't like cryptic command. I'd rather have a spell without the prohibitive UUU cost like FoF to dig for other bombs and answers than something so narrow.
Also, as moss said, NICE METAGAMING. Holy hell man, that's like boarding 4 tividar's crusade and playing goblins all day...
Word. What sticks out to me is no fetchlands, vials, and Price of Progress in the SB. Voracious Dragon is a fiend though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Thanks for the constructive criticism reply on my deck. It does well against aggro and also ichord combo. Thresh packing stifles can be a tough match. The problem I ran into is other types of combo. Like enchantress. Which kinda makes me want to run cunning wish again just so I can side this: Tempest of Light. Then I still have to fight Replenish so save a counter for that. The other type of aggro decks use tribes often and I have Engineered Plague for that. The reason I had 4 Counterspells is usually I use one or two for FOW fodder as well as the counterbalance, that and both cards are amazing but cunning wish would give me more options game one. So I could add three and take out an o-ring, counterspell and a crucible? I find it hard to justify running WOG now days.
edit: @rsaunder I thought running Spell Snares weren't necessary when running CB just because you can hit that number so frequently with CB out.
I would like to how how well Ajani Vengeant is really doing in builds. What match-ups does it improve? We've all ready established that just about any planeswalker is amazing against control, but he actaully seems weak in the control mirror - Unlike Elspeth he doesn't put tokens into play to protect himself and unlike Jace he doesn't really generate any card advantage unless you're killing a dark confidant. He can never kill a gofy unless Humility is on the table in which case Elspeth is most likely better.
Against Zoo Type decks, if they only have one creature I can see him shining, +1ing him every turn. But he cannot take down a goyf and the best thing he can hope to do is really draw a few burn spells, which is good.
Against threshold He's good against anything that isn't Mongoose.
Anyone who has been testing it in Landstill can you explain which match-ups he shines in and which he is lackluster in (Except the obvious Combo and Dredge.)
Ajani is good in a number of situations and, contrary to what you might think.Quote:
I would like to how how well Ajani Vengeant is really doing in builds.
Firstly, he can sit on the board and tap a creature after it has attacked, and continue to do so indefinitely if you keep other threats off the table. This is very strong against decks that don't run a lot of threats, like Dreadstill and certain Countertop builds.
He can sit around and tap a land indefinitely. In this, he acts exactly like Wasteland. He makes your Standstills stronger by shutting down enemy manlands, and he can keep an opponent who is light on lands off an entire color, or off the double blue necessary to cast something like Counterspell.
He eventually is a one-sided Armageddon. This is amazing in the mirror, as your opponent will have few, if any, ways to deal with him after he resolves. Resolution of his ultimate should win you the game all by itself. If you can manage to do it against most other decks, the game is probably already over, but it can actually be the deciding factor in the mirror.
Finally, his minus ability is quite good. At the very least, he can act as a four-mana Lightning Helix, which is not a bad thing.
The matches I've found him really good in are the mirror, Dreadstill, Countertop, and any deck that is generally low on creature and/or land count. The matches where he really is nothing more than a 4-mana Lightning Helix are fast combo and fast aggro, i.e. ANT, Goblins, or Merfolk.
This particular part of your statement is manifestly untrue. While he may not generate actual CA in many situations, he will replace himself through the virtual CA gained by his +1, and his second and third abilities will often generate quite a bit of CA. So, while Jace may draw you into solutions, Ajani is often both a solution and CA, which is what makes him so good.Quote:
unlike Jace he doesn't really generate any card advantage
I want to act the devil's advocate in this case, though I'm also currently testing a UWr version, but your explanation of the role of ajani kinda seems to de-value him despite of your intentions. In your opinion, Ajani is nothing more than a winmore, just because it is good only against decks against which other things are also good (or even more good), say the 3rd jace, the 3rd elspeth, doj, or any other tool white has access to. So, anyone that has finished reading your apology of A. Vengeant is asking himslef: "So why run an offcolor card that is good only against matches we can won without him? Without splashing for a third color, we could just go straight UW control". The effort of reintroducing a red splash for landstill is intended to keep a good mirror MU (or even to improve it, read: reb) and to improve the aggro MU by means of cheaper mass removal than wrath (read: firespout), just to say it simply. It's not a simple metagame choice, the effort is to define a build that has the same power level of "classic" UWb versions. If ajani vengeant has nothing to say against aggro and he's only good in MU we would already win without him, then by no means he should be in this list, landstill doesn't need winmore. If vengeant is in UWr landstill, it maybe is a little more powerful against lotta decks and not only vs control ones, being a more versatile board control element in mid-late game than just a "4 mana helix".Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
Like it been said, Ajani is a beating against control, and there he actually gives the deck edge other than some otherwise unfavorable match ups. I'm talking about black based control decks like Pox and Train Wreck.
Previously they just could play a game of 'get many lands, play a ton of discard and stick a game-ending threat'. No more, because Ajani eats up at least one of their lands and his Loyalty points going to 7 make them overxtend and cast the threats early, not protected by discard. You kill them, he does the ultimate = win.
Ajani is a beating against aggro-control or decks with light amount of creatures. Have Goyf or Tombstalker tapped forever? I'm in. Oh, they drop another creature? Wrath the board, destroy their lands.
It's never bad against aggro. Like it been said, at worst, its Lightning Helix + Fog for next turn. Generally it is so much more than that. You don't drop it when there are two creatures on the board, unless they go lethal next turn. Drop him when where are no creatures, or just one creature on the board, which is quite common. Burn or "tap". Keep it there for another turn. Now if it has 5 and they either face armageddon soon, or lose two creatures. Either is fine by me. I almost never 'armageddon' against aggro though - they choose to cast creatures and have them burned. But they don't have unlimited supply of them, so he gets its +1 quite often to replenish the loyalty. So ton of CA and virtual CA there.
Ajani + Elspeth represent some serious tempo, much more than Elspeth does alone. I've successfully raced Survival with Survival on table. I've raced Progenitus player with him on 26 hits. This isn't winmore, I couldn't just do that with Elspeth alone.
Ajani (along with Wasteland/removal/Dust Bowl) punishes mana light hands with birds/hierarchs/mana elves. Happens quite often for me. This is where F/I shines too.
He's quite good against specific types of combo. The not so easy match up against Enchantress becomes fine if you drop him. Not only he provides the mana denial here, they scoop when you destroy their lands. Found it useful against Ichorid, where he let me win 2 very long games preboard, by 'tapping' out their DRed Troll, letting me assemble double Standstill combo to deck them.
Granted, its Helix against ANT most of the time, but other Plainswalkers are no better there.
Thanks Tinefol, this is what I call a good explanation of a cards. Though I'm curios to know how you beat a prog on the table :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
I need a sideboard for a zoo/burn infested meta. I know there will be a lot of ichorid as well. I don't care so much about the ichorid. I play cunning wish. If you say counterbalance, I will block you.
Why do you say that? One-sided chalices at 1 are good against burn and zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Other lifegain is the obvious answer, pulse and ajani. That, P2E, and relic should all be in.
I've been testing this lately, I wanted more spot removal because of Merfolk and Zoo but I also wanted to Keep Jace in there and work in Crucible... this is the product of all that..
// Lands:24
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Swamp (1)
2 [B] Plains (2)
2 [B] Island (4)
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Creatures:1
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells:35
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LOR] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [B] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
// Sideboard:15
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
@J.V.
Based on the way you built that deck, which has a lot of spot removal, I think you should cut DoJ. The reasoning for this is that you dont have enough to restart the board and slow the game down deliberately for you to ramp up to 8-10 mana to fully use DoJ effectively. Obviously with that game plan, you should be dropping an Elspeth down and bashing face. Also, cut Dust Bowl: that card is old news with Mutavaults and opposing Factories running around. Run another Wasteland instead. In fact, run at least 3 Wastelands if you expect any Merfolk at all. Also, with that color set-up, you should definitely take advantage of this and run Vindicate. It's a very powerful all-purpose card. Also, consider running Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict. Most games where I cast those cards, it's either because it's very early in the game (in which you will usually tap out a lot), or I'm facing some stupid shroud creature that wants me to clear him off the board (in which tapping mana on your own turn wont matter that much), so anything else in between, Swords and Path handle the board better.
So:
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Dust Bowl
-2 Decree of Justice
-3 Diabolic Edict
+2 Wasteland
+1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
+2 Chainer's Edict
+2 Vindicate
And if you can squeeze in Garruk Wildspeaker as Planeswalker 5-6, that would definitely make the deck more boss. Obviously you're going to have to cut Black, but totally worth it as Garruk keeps your in the game against Aggro and Control way better than Ajani Vengeant.
Update in testing:
4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins
4 force
4 snare
2 c.s
3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm
4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk
3 decree
2 elspeth
2 cunning wish
sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow
This Ior Ruin Expedition and Spell Pierce look hella gg.
Ior Ruin Expedition only draws us 2 cards and takes 3 turns to become active. It also sacriifces itself when you draw the 2 cards. Spell Pierce looks promising. Foil Commons should be really cheap.
Why run spell pierce over negate?
Spell Pierce to me looks like Yet another tool for Tempo thresh to utilize.
Standstill > Ior Ruin Expedition. Spell pierce looks interesting. But Spell Snare is used in many builds for the 1CC and that gets goyf as well. I don't even use snare with Counterbalance. So not hella gg. The power level is up on this new set though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
@mossivo1986: No wasteland? Its so much quicker then Dustbowl. You need that many basics? You still have counters and ways of stopping B2B and Blood Moon, those matches still don't come up as frequently as Goblins and thresh though. Teamed up with Crucible people tend to want to scoop after that resolves. And also 3 Brainstorm? That card is much to good to only use 3 especially when its the type of card that helps you late or early game when your searching for land / answer. I do agree with 3 Standstill though that card has been treating me well, with enough man lands and wastes you can out wait most any deck.
Changes to my deck:
24 land
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Islands
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 STP
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 SDT
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
1 Wrath of God
side:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tempest of Light
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
Ior Ruin Expedition looks like an Ancestral Visions that: costs more mana, can be Spell Snared, can be Krosan Grip'd, and draws you 1 less card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
@ Rockout looking for a SB card against alot of Zoo and Burn, has Kitchen Finks been considered? It's kind of slow, but it can trade with their smaller guys or fog a couple Goyf swings, while gaining you some life. It might prove to be worse than Ajani, but it more or less seems like it accomplishes the same thing, soaking up some combat damage and gaining a bit of life. And the 3cc slot is generally less crowded than the 4cc slot, as far as curving out, idk just an idea.
Anyway what's wrong with actually running Ajani? He's been hella solid for me at least, doubling as an annoying lifegain-slowdown that gets you into the game and a tag-team with decrees and elspeth.
Edit: By running I mean putting him in your sideboard.