Abrupt Decay isn't a card in your meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
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Abrupt Decay isn't a card in your meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Yep, 4x Abrupt Decay main is why I expect to beat Miracles game 1. Add in 2 Krosan Grip for game 2 so I don't have to waste a decay making them shuffle away their first top if they land it and I feel really good in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
If you have Counterspell in hand or on top of the library with a top in play you should definitely try to counter Treasure Cruise. If you have Force of Will you need to hold it unless you can hard cast it and even then you can't tap out for it. Going to 1 card in hand while BUG goes to 4 or 5 will kill you almost every time.
Yeah, Counterbalance is so strong that having it in your deck means you don't care about your opponent's resolving Ancestral Recall...why do people keep saying this?Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
The only way Counterbalance is going to be so insane against these decks is if they warp their lists to run piles of cantrips to turn on Treasure Cruise. Counterbalance as is is terrible against GBx decks and just decent against other midrange creature lists. The card is mostly for decks that push the envelope and run piles of 1 CMC spells.
The reason people keep saying it is because they can draw 3 and you can stop them from casting any of them most of the time. They win the battle, you the war.
You're just ignoring the fact that Counterbalance was mediocre against these decks before they had Treasure Cruise. Adding Ancestral Recall doesn't make it magically better. If Counterbalance wasn't inherently busted against their deck last month, it only got worse.
Why can't you look at the meta from the other angle? If you think Lossett MD Blasts is not as good as the Ponder build, Cruise might just become another reason to MD Blasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
This. This is why I hate Magic players. Because you have TWO Krosan Grip post board. I mean, I have a 14 card sideboard in my BUG Deck against Miracles, so I am also a part of my own problem, but that's not the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Cruise is a very powerful card, and it will basically always be at least as good as a Hymn to Tourach if they cast it. If it resolves, they get closer to Grips and Decays. In G1, we don't have to worry about it. Plenty of these decks need to skew towards cheaper Spells, so they could be on 3-Decays. By the time Cruise is online you should have a second Balance. In G1; we can basically ignore Cruise if it's cast anywhere from turn 5 onwards. However; post board we have a problem. BUG has always been a deck where Red Blast is bad. Now they have 3 Ancestral Recalls, and we can't even Counterbalance them effectively. (We have, at the absolute most 2.) This means we have to find a better way of fighting them. They are a midrange deck, so we can actually get away with Counterspell here. I think that just having Counterspell for Lilianas and Cruises, and then Terminusing the board.
What is this "Red Blast Vs Ponder" nonsense? I'm playing both.
I've been losing a lot to Treasure Cruise.dec on MTGO. I'm running pretty well against everything else, but the tempo variants with Treasure Cruise keep popping up.
BUG - standard Delver list w/ Treasure Cruise added
Patriot - standard list w/ Treasure Cruise - some are running Stifle and Probe
RUG - Standard list, minus the Nimble Mongeese
Young Pyromancer - some of these decks are UR, others are URB for Cabal Therapy. The UR decks are also running Swiftspear Monk.
It seems like the games turn into a grind. I'm usually using my REB/PB on Delvers, cantrips, or FOW. In games 2/3, I am taking my FOW out (at least some of them) and Treasure Cruise's CMC is too high for Counterbalance.
It just seems like the games play out, they lay some threats, I neutralize their threats and build some board presence, and then they Treasure Cruise and sometimes chain multiples. It is basically an Ancestral Recall at sorcery speed.
I've considered bringing in RIP, but vs. the Young Pyromancer decks, you are only stopping Treasure Cruise and you are hurting your own SCM.
I'm tired of losing to an 8 CC common in Legacy.
If you can play Krosan Grip in this meta you should have two in the SB. The hardest cards to deal with are SDT and Batterskull. Counterbalance and Rest in Peace are soft locks that can turn hard in a hurry. Jitte is at the heart of several creature control strategies and Split-second is very relevant when dealing with it. Aether Vial is a problem in D&T and Merfolk and again Split-second is relevant. Random blasts from the past usually have a couple of good grip targets in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Even if you're playing 4 Abrupt Decay main you're not solving the SDT problem, just ameliorating it a bit, and you're doing nothing about Batterskull at all. So the grips come in and the decays find other targets much of the time. Miracles just happens to board in several cards that decay applies too. I've had people board out their Counterbalances against me because I'm loaded for bear after game 1 and what that does is prevent them from ever keeping a top on the table and from maintaining RiP long enough to win.
The problem Miracles has right now is that in addition to the normal high level of hate for it, befitting it's status as the most consistent control list in the meta, it's also getting splash hate all over the place. Treasure Cruise joins the meta and Envelop becomes a real option in the SB given the value it creates against Miracles, Elves, Jund and now every list playing Ponder, Treasure Cruise and discard with maybe a favored sorcery or two in the flex slots.
The list will find it's way through the maze but it's going to be a rocky path for the first few months. I think Dig Through Time is going to wind up in Miracles, just so there's the potential to Counterbalance a Treasure Cruise. That and it's a ridiculously powerful spell in a list looking for a few good cards in the mid to late game.
Played RIP Helm tonight, went 4-0. I found that Energy Field is really the winner. I won only 2 games outright, the rest I won with Rip/Field or Moat/Humility locks with protection. I also ran the most wacked sideboard plan I have ever seen. Six slots where E tutor targets: Moat, Humility, Nodes, Thorn, Moon and a back up Energy Field. The line up was RUG, Fish, Burn (won the first game on a life) and U/R Delver.
While my plan worked, I custom built it for my Meta. No combo, Delver has killed it, just Tempo and fair decks. For that reason I felt comfortable cutting a lot of the normal combo hate and going with a creature defensive build.
I know that people are stating that RIP Helm is an overreaction, but I think Energy Field makes it something worth considering. BUG was the only other undefeated deck in the room tonight and I really want to test against it. I think Decay is really the only card I cared about all night and did not see it once. So I guess I did ok there. Thing is 3 RIP main does its job against BUG, so I think that it might not be the worst match ever.
I post this, not because I think that RIP combo is the be all and end all, but because I think it is a choice and many people are discarding the option. Give it a go, I was happy with how it handled and I will try it again next week and see how it goes.
Edit
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
2 E Tutor
4 Swords
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat
4 Force
4 Terminus
Enchantments:
3 Counterbalance
1 Energy Field
3 Rip
2 Dentition Sphere
Artifacts:
4 Top
1 Helm
Walkers:
3 Jace
Lands:
Standard 22 for UWr with one of Karakas
Sideboard:
2 V Clique
1 E Tutor
2 REB
2 Wear
1 Entreat
1 Verdict
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Energy Field
1 Bloodmoon
1 Humility
1 Moat
Dice_Box, do you have a list for reference?
I need winter tires before I need a Moat =P
It'll be interesting if more builds start to re-use "old tech" though.
Oh yeah? Do you have those cards signed by Oarsman and Ein, with altered art? :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Well..., a timely Blood Moon with relative clean board can push BUG/Sultai out of the game.
I'm replying to my own post just to try to get something going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Playing Miracles vs. Tempo, we usually stabilize around 8-12 life, the game turns into a top decking war, and we usually win due to SDT, Jace, and other very power spells (superior card selection and card power).
As the Tempo deck play top decks, they can find a Brainstorm or Ponder, which provides them with one card. With Treasure Cruise, the tempo player can now draw 3 cards, which is really back-breaking. Treasure Cruise is making this a huge difference - against standard cantrips, Miracles has an advantage because we have superior card selection (standard Brainstorm and Ponder are about card selection, not card value, as they serve as a filter/replacement (excepting Brainstorm/replace junk/shuffle effect)). Treasure Cruise is card value, because they actually get to draw three new cards.
Anyway, very frustrating having a pseudo Ancestral Recall in Legacy. Thoughts on how to stop this beast?
Thank you!
I posted before because I came in expecting that kind of issue and planed for it. Have a look at my post able, with Delver more common that Combo, I ran out a list that capsized on that and it worked. If your not seeing a lot of combo, you could get away with more hate for the cards that are an issue at the cost of the cards your seeing less of.
While I STRONGLY question the competitiveness in an open meta, such as an SCG open and such, which you said yourself, I think this list is fucking awesome and love every thing about it. Fun over playing the best of the best, I'm on board with that! :) :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
@Water_Wizard
You can't stop Treasure Cruise consistently. You can play hate against it like Rest in Peace or you can counter it cheaply with a Counterspell but you can't reliably prevent it.
What you need to do is find more built-in card advantage to make up for the fact that the opponent will get off Treasure Cruise more often then you can stop it. Or you can just play it yourself and keep up with the Joneses. The problem is that you'll never trigger a Miracle off of either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time.
If I was playing Miracles in this meta I'd add a Dig Through Time to the list, maybe 2 of them. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
Sure, Abrupt Decay. It's beat by Misdirection. Misdirection is beat by Red blast. Red blast is beat by Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Abrupt Decay decks are good against Counterbalance no matter how many cards they're drawing, it's why Counterbalance is often sided out in those matchups.
Or why G2 / G3 we can overload on targets. 4 Counterbalance + 2 Rest in Peace + 1 Blood Moon + 2 - 3 Cliques + whatever else vs. 4 Abrupt Decay makes said card not that scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
What are people's experiences with stoneforge + batterskull vs. delver of secret aggro-control decks ?
Delver decks are by far my worst match-ups.
I played it in Thopter combo for a while. It's not bad and offers good sideboard options. The issue though is I feel it makes you slower by adding more points of failure. More dead draws and a bolt at the wrong moment can sting. Still, it's effective and still my preferred build of the deck. But it is very flawed.
I like SFM a lot because in many scenarios its a must answer or lose for them. Even if SFM gets tagged by a bolt right away, you will also have that batterskull to drop down later, assuming you don't die before you get to 5 mana. SFM also gives you some extra shuffle effects which has been relevant as well. Drawing skull alone kind of sucks, but I think that's an okay price to pay. If you're on two entreats you could side one out to keep the same amount of "clunkiness" for postboard games. I actually play 2 SFM + 1 Skull in the main (only 1 entreat) and have been very happy with it even in the maindeck. I like having diverse types of threats, because it means my opponent has to find the right answer at the right time or struggle severely.
are you serious? i like playing against delver all day long. ok i play stoneforge, but besides that delver is a good mu.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
I totally agree with this. I feel as though I expect to beat bug delver, mostly b/c I've played against it the most, well over 60% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Its DnT, 12post, at times Burn, Shardless BUG, (in no specific order) that I struggle against.
Well, great! Then tell me how to beat those decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
I find both of the miracle cards to be clunky and hard to resolve, jace does very little (4 mana). If they go first my counterbalance is pretty bad. I don't know why you mention BUG delver specifically, the ones i tend to have the most trouble with are the RUG versions with goyf, goose and delver backed up by burn, waste, stifle and countermagic.
The games that i find problematic are the ones where they land a delver turn 1 and flip it immediately. Because of daze, stifle and wasteland it can be extremely punishing to attempt to deal with it early, this means that i have to wait a few turns, which results in my life dropping to about 10 from the delver alone. Keep in mind that i have to play around these cards regardless of whether or not the opponent has them, since i cannot know if he does.
What is your issue with RUG? All their spells Stuck in your Counterbalance, they have no Abrupt Decay to remove it, Rest in Piece from SB leaves them with only Delver as threat and they can't handle midgame EtA for like 2-3 Angels on a rampage.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
All the things you pointed out require Mana to play and potential Mana to overcome cheap counter, which assume the game gets to midgame. You seem to forget RUG's speed and Mana denial plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As someone once said about this MU, one minute you have like 4 lands against RUG with some of them being un-cracked fetches, the next minute you have 1 land. Now that all the tempo players want to get on Treasure Cruise Bandwagon, perhaps you just won't see as many Rug as before.
Come on ... Most of Miracles content is 1-2cc and runs plenty of Basics. You should be able to give a fuck about the manadenial most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Yes - losing against rug due to mana denial is rare if you play correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But it probably also depends on the canadian player. Back when I played Canadian I saved my stifles for the Terminus triggers and let them have all their lands. I also did board out the 4 wastelands in g2. I guess if you have a canadian player who things wasting and stifling fetchlands is a good route to victory (which it is not generally) - from time to time you might still get screwed.
Do you mean the 1-2cc spells like Entreat, Council, Jace, and some builds with Clique and Verdict? Statistically speaking, just because you run plenty of Basic in your deck, that doesn't mean your opening hand would always allow you to get them into play. That's especially true if you run 21.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And those slots combined are usually less than 1/7 of your deck. Are 4 SDT, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder plus more than 20 lands still not enough for you to get a stable manabase going?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
my issue is that they go first, drop delver, then i take my turn and drop a land and perhaps a cantrip (Even if i have plow i would consider it wrong to play it here, rather than wait for daze protection unless i got a second plow), they get their turn and cast whatever they want, on my turn i can then drop counterbalance...which does nothing against whatever they already played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Counterbalance seems to me like it's an end-game card against these decks, if i cannot get board control then it does nothing. Entreating for 2-3 angels also assumes that i have been able to survive the early and mid game, which is where my problem lies.
My mana base consists of 10 fetches, 3 nonbasics and 8 basics which means that my hand is very likely to consist of 1 land + 1 fetch land, this makes it vulnerable to stifle as well as wasteland if i go for an early counterbalance or need to hold counterspell up (Since i would need a nonbasic to support UU and W for plow/terminus).
I do not have a problem winning if i can get my game plan going, i have a problem getting my gameplan started against daze, fow, wasteland, stifle, spell pierce + more.
I never had troubles with RUG. Boarding in flusterstorm's/RIP helps alot too here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Taken alone that seems like trolling, even though I know it isn't. How do you not care about mana denial against RUG delver? It's practically the most important thing in the matchup. I would say the majority of the games Miracles loses to RUG involve Stifle/Wasteland in combination with taxing counters.
Hi everyone!
New here on the forum.
Playing Miracles since GP Paris after watching PS, PVDDR and MG at top 8 tables.
Fully agree with "oarsman". My main goal vs RUG delver is to make land drops (Basic Lands) the first 4/5 turns. At this point, if you have enough life, you are favored to win the game.
Bait some early counters, make their soft counters worst mid/late game and counter-lock them.
Finally some people i can agree with. Now i just need to know how to actually pull it off, which is exactly what i am having problems with.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMage
My full deck list is:
Lands: 21
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding tarn
2 Arid mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic island
1 Mountain (See Back to basics!)
2 Plains
5 Island
Creatures: 5
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Entreat the angels
Spells: 23
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's judgment
Other: 11
4 Sensei's divining top
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace, TMS
SB:
3 Rest in peace
2 Back to basics
3 Engineered explosives
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Izzet staticaster
2 Pithing needle
I generally board out some combination of force of will, jace and entreat against delver decks. I don't love counterspell against them either. I am strongly considering SB'ing some SFM+Batterskull.
The delve cards could potentially make the delver of secrets deck more difficult to deal with, but i am already sideboarding 4 red blasts in against them. Also, the RUG versions can't really play the delve cards, i think?
Is was just a hyperbole, Joe. We all know the amazing T1 Delver followed by an endless flurry of disruption for your mana can be backbreaking, but in this case it appears to be an issue in general and not only with perfect starts of his opponent. With RIP and Pyroblast in the SB as common tools I have a tough time believing that there is a general Problem to get hold of Delver/Gooss/Goofy. The decision to save Stifle for Miracles triggers or Fetchlands is also not yours to makeQuote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
It appears that the focus is too much on locking the RUG player out early rather than stalling their clock until their manadenial and taxing counters lose their effectivity and your card-quality paired with constant landdrops takes over the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
In my experience, if your meta is delver (mana denial strategy) based, consider running more lands in your main deck.
Maybe you will be pondering on the first turns of the game for lands, so if you have them already you will not be taping out so often and consequently you can pay
their soft counters.
Supreme Verdict is a big threat in this matchup, they can not stifle or counter it.
Seems like there is a new RUG list running TC and Young Pyromancer in place of mongoose.
Council's Judgement does not seem very good here..
Very dependent on your meta and your game-play (ponder vs non ponder ex.,) with the deck.
Personally, i think it is correct in the new TC meta to run 4 counterbalance, 4 Pyroblast/Red Blast, 2-3 graveyard hate in the 75.
I like the SFM + Batterskull plan when your opponent is not playing around it, but TC seems very good with bolt effects..
Does not look like people will be boarding out burn as they used to.. Not sure.
In general, your sideboard looks pretty solid against delver + TC -> 3 Rest in Peace, 3 Explosives, 4 Pyro/Red Blast..
For bigger tournaments consider running some Vendilion Clique in the 75.
Very important vs combo, plainswalkers, hand info and making your opponent tap out.
I’m fairly new to this deck though not new to the game, and I have a peculiar challenge to deal with. Still, I doubt that I’m alone.
There is a local DnT player, quite a strong one, who has recently begun playing green cards in his deck: not only Gaddock Teeg as a 2-3, but at least one Sylvan Library. I am pretty worried about this. It is difficult to get through a local event without playing him as he tends to do well.
Do I have options available other than Pithing Needle, Pyroclasm, and removal for his artifacts/creatures/enchantment? Should I attempt to Blood Moon him? He has been forced to give up his Cataclysms: is there a way to punish him for that?
Thank you in advance.
Very interested in the Thopter Miracles that looks really good for the MTGO meta with lots of Burn and other Miracles. Tried it a few times in Practice room and Needs some way to kill Null Rod though since that shuts off Top and your Thopter plan. Skeptical about Leyline of Santity in paper since dislike mulliganing for it but it sure is good versus burn on MTGO. I switched up the board a little bit from MattiasNL's list to include Disenchant to kill Null Rod and have only 3 Leyline. not sure I would run Leyline in paper but for MTGO its nice.