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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I've noticed that we are tending to tilt our decks a bit either towards Miracles (shardless) or towards Delver (combo), but in so doing, we're making ourselves weaker to the other category of deck. What are cards that we could be running that affect both camps of deck? Thragtusk seems like a sure winner here -- when moving away from Rhinos, Thrag obviously comes roaring right back -- he's great against the grind, he's great against the fast decks, and he's great against Eldrazi. What are some other Thragtusk style cards we should be looking into?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I've noticed that we are tending to tilt our decks a bit either towards Miracles (shardless) or towards Delver (combo), but in so doing, we're making ourselves weaker to the other category of deck. What are cards that we could be running that affect both camps of deck? Thragtusk seems like a sure winner here -- when moving away from Rhinos, Thrag obviously comes roaring right back -- he's great against the grind, he's great against the fast decks, and he's great against Eldrazi. What are some other Thragtusk style cards we should be looking into?
Reveillark ?
Restoration angel ? (flash is great, and is effect is combo with tusk )
Default: non green creatures
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
For Enchantments, I know a lot.
- First I know is that this deck needs
Recycle (or
Null Profusion). If you never had this card in play, try it out, really. I know it might look unusual if you never played it, but please try it. It is completely busted, easily outdraws Jace.
- Another card you can try is Faith's Fetters over Oblivion Ring. Deals better with a lot of nonsense (example Batterskull when Rectored or Eye of Ugin) and is lifegain when desperate.
There is also an interesting Combo in Enchantment decks that run Rector:
Humility plus
Dovescape plus
Curse of Death's Hold. Neither of them is really bad on its own. Dovescape is game against any Combo Deck, also good with Rector because Rector is not a spell, but acts as one so with Dovescape on board the next Rector will resolve. Curse is great against D&T, Elves and Mentor and Grixis, and a lot of other stuff, too. And Humility you already run anyway. All three combined is almost a hardlock but any two already work very well together already and you can do a lot of fun stuff that is actually pretty good:
a: Humility plus Curse shuts down all of their creatures, obviously good.
b: Humility plus Dovescape shuts down the game entirely but you have GSZ and other bigger cards, still handle with caution.
c: Curse plus Dovescape is also comboing nicely.
Thanks for your ideas.
I didn't knew Faith's Fetters. I need to try it cause for now, what I see:
+ 4ccm avoid decay and let us more flexible on our deed
+ can target a land
+ gain life
- no exil, so don't remove any token or walker's loyaulty
- no exil, so if managed, it's as if the permanent had haste (if creature).
It seems that balance goes to in ;)
Recycle, I knew it well with Aluren. But totally forgot it. Can work well indeed essentially with Starfield.
For now, I'm trying the previous advices, removing my red splash.
So I put a Curse of Death's hold in side (with the 2nd humility or against decks with a lot of X/1)
And Doomwake Giant in main deck (swap + big body)
But on my build, I think Dovescape is too big and double edged.
I added a Tireless tracker too, trying to remove a SDT.
I'm waiting to get more feed back from testings before posting my new list.
So for now I will try recycle and Faith's fetter ;)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I've noticed that we are tending to tilt our decks a bit either towards Miracles (shardless) or towards Delver (combo), but in so doing, we're making ourselves weaker to the other category of deck. What are cards that we could be running that affect both camps of deck? Thragtusk seems like a sure winner here -- when moving away from Rhinos, Thrag obviously comes roaring right back -- he's great against the grind, he's great against the fast decks, and he's great against Eldrazi. What are some other Thragtusk style cards we should be looking into?
Thrun, the Last Troll
Reaper of the Wilds
Tireless Tracker
Obstinate Baloth
Loxodon Smiter
Giant Solifuge
Burning-Tree Shaman
Kodama of the North Tree
Phantom Centaur
The Gitrog Monster
Spiritmonger
Glare of Subdual
Loxodon Hierarch
Saffi Eriksdotter
Ohran Viper
Phantom Nishoba
Oracle of Mul Daya
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Kokusho, the Evening Star
That's all I can think of at the moment. I'm sure there are plenty more. For BUG Fit lists, Meloku plus Tracker seems spicy...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Wilt-Leaf Liege seems worth talking about. In a most GW shell of course.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Arian regarding cards good against miracles and delver (and eldrazi while I'm at it), I don't want to beat a thoroughly dead horse with a stick (who am I kidding, I'm golgari!)
SFM
SFM
SFM
Jitte
SoFaI
SoLaS
BSK
Abrupt Decay
Deed
Tusk
Sigarda
Punishing Fire
Lilliana
Lingering Souls
Are the best cards I can think of that can shine in all three of those matchups.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I've noticed that we are tending to tilt our decks a bit either towards Miracles (shardless) or towards Delver (combo), but in so doing, we're making ourselves weaker to the other category of deck. What are cards that we could be running that affect both camps of deck? Thragtusk seems like a sure winner here -- when moving away from Rhinos, Thrag obviously comes roaring right back -- he's great against the grind, he's great against the fast decks, and he's great against Eldrazi. What are some other Thragtusk style cards we should be looking into?
If we want to stay GBW:
Stoneforge Mystic: Had bad experiences with him but maybe I used him wrong or had a lot of bad variance. In theory still good, mana sink plus Therapy synergy.
Lingering Souls: can pressure Jace, chump and is good with Therapy. Excellent equipment carrier. Probably only viable in combination with other cards that can benefit from tokens, like SFM or Humility or when you need things to sacrifice.
Birthing Pod: A strong threat immune to Terminus against Miracles and a flexible solution seeker against aggression and combo.
Swords to Plowshares: Without Rhinos we might want to go back to Legacy's standard removal.
Liliana of the Veil: Good against Miracles and even a more expensive Chainer's with an upside is solid against Eldrazi. Also nice against Combo decks.
Thrun: Small Sigarda could be viable if 4-drop slot is less full.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Birthing Pod: A strong threat immune to Terminus against Miracles and a flexible solution seeker against aggression and combo.
Terminus does reset Pod though and you will need a new creature before you can continue Podding after Terminus.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
Example sideboarding:
Miracles, +2 needles, +2 TS, +2 Teeg, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +2 Card advantage (Sorin/skeletal)
-4 Therapy, -4 vet, -3 StP.
Shardless, +2 deluge, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +2 Card advantage
-4 therapy, -2 TS (out comes 6 discard replaced with 6 slots that can give me card advantage)
Storm
+2 Surg, +2 TS, +2 Teeg, +2 Spirit/Abeyance +2 Deluge
-1 Tusk, -1 Sigarda, -3 StP, -3 Decay, -1 Meren, -1 BSK/Jitte (can never decide)
Eldrazi
+2 Deluge +1 E plague/Rec Sage +1 Sorin (yeeaaa)
-4 Therapy (they have to attack into vet, and TS can take threats from their hand but you don't want 4 of them)
D&T
+2 Deluge, +1 E plague/Rec Sage
-2 TS, -1 Meren
I've been sideboarding very differently against Miracles - something like this:
-1 Jitte
-2 Veteran Explorer (1 left)
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Cabal Therapy (2 left)
-1 Toxic Deluge
-3 Path
+1 Thrag
+1 Teeg
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Abrupt Decay
I'm keeping with 2 Therapy and 0 Thoughtseize post-side, rather than your 0 Therapy 4 Thoughtseize. I've found that generally they both achieve the same effect against miracles (clear out counterspells so you can resolve a haymaker) but Therapy has additional synergy with the tokens and unneeded Stoneforges we have, along with Surgical.
I really like Surgical Extraction against Miracles - while it doesn't completely disable the deck (see Slaughter Games discussion) it does do a lot of scary things, particularly when we're running Therapy and when we're playing so many Must-Force spells. Even just taking Terminus or Force or Swords is very strong, getting them to shuffle at times when they've stacked their deck is really powerful too.
I don't know if Sorin & Scrying are a good idea when you're cutting all the Veteran Explorers - you only have 21 lands and no ramp cards, casting 6-drops and big X spells feels pretty hopeful. I get that the game goes long, but our haymakers are a lot better when we cast them before turn eight. I'm keeping one Vet to Zenith up if I need the mana asap / something to Therapy off right now, and still have a Sakura-Tribe Elder to work with as well. Carpet of Flowers does a lot of work.
I keep in Decay just because most players keep counterbalance in in my experience - but also if I side out both Swords/Path and Abrupt Decay, I am very thin on the ground in answers to Monastery Mentor. Post-sideboard you are pretty much on Deed, Thoughtseize and that's it for answers to the stupid monk, and that really worries me.
I'm also surprised you don't take Meren out against Miracles, she seems pretty uninspiring there - I guess she demands a 1 for 1 trade immediately but that still seems to be playing into their game plan more than into ours.
All the other matchups look pretty much the same as I would go for, running ZP as Deluge where relevant. I'd be tempted to run Needle in the D&T and Eldrazi matchups for Vial/Mom/equipment and Endbringer/Displacer/equipment. Generally I always put it in against decks that run Jitte. Against Shardless ZP isn't as relevant as Deluge so I'd probably keep some Therapy in or add in Carpet to overrun them with threats / Deed faster.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
My current build i am struggling with. While it looks good on paper, it feels not powerful enough. I sometimes think that it has not enough threats or that these are not strong enough.
I would be realy thankful if someone, more expierienced than me, has any kind of help for me.
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Green Sun`s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Angiushed Unmaking
2 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei`s Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
PS: The Taiga is for SLaughter Games SB
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dalton!
22 lands
10 Consistency
14 Interaction
5 Ramp (+ GSZ)
9 Beatdown
1 Sorin
I think you're running too many big monsters. You're running 10 big threats that don't really contribute other than ending the game eventually. I don't think you can afford to run 4 Rhino + Sigarda + Thragtusk + DLD + Sorin, it's just too many expensive spells you'll never cast - you only need 1-2 of them to end the game anyway. A lot of decks are going to go under you and kill you if you stumble on mana a little bit, particularly when your removal is partially slow like Deed or dangerous against aggro like Anguished Unmaking.
You also have a lot of cards which don't pressure combo lists at all - of course you can get past this with your sideboard, but I do get the impression you're a bit low on interaction, and very reliant on Therapy hitting.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Is there a formula how nic fit should be build?
I was thinking that i am running too few monsters. Interessting that it might be the other way round.
I going with the idea that the rhinos are the first to leave. Keeping 2 of them. But what should come in?
Gadock Teeg? Voice of Resurgence? Kitchen Finks? Maybe Flip Nissa?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
There isn't really a formula. I personally try to go by this:
14+ Green and Black untapped lands turn 1
13+ third colour lands
10+ ramp effects (Zenith, Vet, STE, DRS)
14+ 'Interaction' effects (Discard, Removal, Sweeper) - at least 4 discard, 4 spot removal, 3 sweeper
14+ 'Consistency' effects (Tops, Draw spells, Zenith, tutors)
12+ 'Finisher' effects (creatures power > 2, planeswalkers, Zeniths)
Plenty of cards overlap, and that's just my personal preferences. A lot of people like to run more ramp effects, or more finishers, or whatever.
I don't think more smaller creatures are what the deck needs - Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks are only really very relevant in Birthing Pod builds. Teeg is pretty good, but usually just a sideboard card for combo/control decks because he turns our own Zeniths and planeswalkers off.
IMO your best bet would be to run more card draw effects and other CA options - you're a bit low on that side of things. Since you seem to like the creature heavy builds, the obvious choice would be to put in 1-2 copies of Tireless Tracker.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hold the phone here - Wilt Leaf DOES do amazing work for us. Listen up - Deathrites and Vets bump by 1, Rhino bumps by 2 (6/7 challenges most Goyfs and kills Angler), bumps Sigarda by 2, and swings for 4 on its own. Let's not overlook this. It's not huge in Maverick since 4 mana is huge for them. For us? Not really.
Think about it.
-Matt
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Hold the phone here - Wilt Leaf DOES do amazing work for us. Listen up - Deathrites and Vets bump by 1, Rhino bumps by 2 (6/7 challenges most Goyfs and kills Angler), bumps Sigarda by 2, and swings for 4 on its own. Let's not overlook this. It's not huge in Maverick since 4 mana is huge for them. For us? Not really.
Think about it.
-Matt
Also punishes liliana, which can sometimes cause us problems depending on specific hands. James might be on to something there.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I don't think Wilt Leaf is necessarily what we want, just because he's similar to Rhino - does nothing to fast decks / combo and is only relevant against Miracles if we are overextending. Looks like he'd be great at beating on creature decks smaller than ours, like Rhino, and not help us much in the matchups we have trouble with.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Also punishes liliana, which can sometimes cause us problems depending on specific hands. James might be on to something there.
Also gets to come into play free if we use Swords or Path on a Reality Smasher :cool:
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I cannot imagine the meta that maindecking wilt leaf liege to pump siege rhinos is correct. That being said this thread definitely leans towards funny over correct so I suppose lets cheer on some 6/7 Rhinos...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Upon reflecting on Wilt-Leaf on the way home from errands, I don't think it's quite what we want -- but I think that there is value in the suggestion. Being able to pump our dorks when we draw them lategame is relevant. Some people have been moving this way with Stoneforge Mystic anyway -- but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal. Kessig Wolf Run might need another look, for one. I'm still high on Nylea, God of the Hunt, as another option.
The problem that we've found ourselves mired in is tied directly to the tempo of the games. We can beat the fast decks. We can beat the slow decks. We can beat the mid-range decks. We can't beat all of these things simultaneously. What we need is better scaling -- cards that are good in all stages of the game. We can't afford to draw a Veteran Explorer on turn 5 against Miracles, for example -- but neither is it desirable to never draw one vs Eldrazi, Delver, and random decks. We can't cut Veteran Explorer despite it being awful in the slow, grindy portion of the metagame because it's just too critical elsewhere. That means that we need to find ways to scale Vets up to being reasonable threats on their own.
Wilt-Leaf might not be quite the card we want -- as Navsi pointed out, it pushes us into Rhino territory where we begin to occupy that awkward middle ground where we're neither small nor big enough to handle the field. But I do definitely think that the /reasoning/ behind Wilt-Leaf is valid.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
My opinion the reason that you are finding Rhino lacking is that the deck is trying to straddle the middle ground like you said. Siege Rhino isnt good enough to be a top end for a ramp deck. If I was playing a rhino deck I would probably drop deed and play spot removal and deluges. The deck still gets to play decay/pulse to hit non creatures. Sfm, scooze and other mid-drop creatures would make this like a big maverick deck vs Nic fit.
Otherwise going bigger by dropping rhino and just being a control deck with a couple of hard to answer threats/pws. The trouble with a non blue control deck is that a slow clock and no way to control the top of their deck is rough. The nature of the cards that people want to play in this deck come with certain limitations-
- Double sided mana ramp is going to be terrible against miracles
- 4 Discard spells and a slow clock mean combo is going to be a challenge MD
- No way to control/counter cards drawn mean protracted games that favor Nic Fit do not always work out
- 4+ drops in a Legacy mean that some games you will die with uncastable cards due to wasteland/stifle/counters/discard
Those are all some of core issues with the deck. You can pick some of these to solve but the deck doesnt have space to do them all. The deck is slanted to beat midrange fair decks and delverish decks. I would concentrate on beating those. Add cards to the board to shore up lands/post/combo and understand that this deck is not a 50% against the field deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Upon reflecting on Wilt-Leaf on the way home from errands, I don't think it's quite what we want -- but I think that there is value in the suggestion. Being able to pump our dorks when we draw them lategame is relevant. Some people have been moving this way with Stoneforge Mystic anyway -- but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal. Kessig Wolf Run might need another look, for one. I'm still high on Nylea, God of the Hunt, as another option.
The problem that we've found ourselves mired in is tied directly to the tempo of the games. We can beat the fast decks. We can beat the slow decks. We can beat the mid-range decks. We can't beat all of these things simultaneously. What we need is better scaling -- cards that are good in all stages of the game. We can't afford to draw a Veteran Explorer on turn 5 against Miracles, for example -- but neither is it desirable to never draw one vs Eldrazi, Delver, and random decks. We can't cut Veteran Explorer despite it being awful in the slow, grindy portion of the metagame because it's just too critical elsewhere. That means that we need to find ways to scale Vets up to being reasonable threats on their own.
Wilt-Leaf might not be quite the card we want -- as Navsi pointed out, it pushes us into Rhino territory where we begin to occupy that awkward middle ground where we're neither small nor big enough to handle the field. But I do definitely think that the /reasoning/ behind Wilt-Leaf is valid.
We need to be able to beat the meta decks and random brews. Everything else is non-existent. Take the built(rhino fit, sfm fit, etc.) and work on it. keep this enchantress stuff and whatever else in its own thread. Jain has put in a lot of effort on SFM fit and many of us have spent hours on rhino fit. By polluting the thread will all these not nic fit deck brews, it dilutes the waters and makes it an unnavigable body of thoughts.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
My opinion the reason that you are finding Rhino lacking is that the deck is trying to straddle the middle ground like you said. Siege Rhino isnt good enough to be a top end for a ramp deck. If I was playing a rhino deck I would probably drop deed and play spot removal and deluges. The deck still gets to play decay/pulse to hit non creatures. Sfm, scooze and other mid-drop creatures would make this like a big maverick deck vs Nic fit.
Otherwise going bigger by dropping rhino and just being a control deck with a couple of hard to answer threats/pws. The trouble with a non blue control deck is that a slow clock and no way to control the top of their deck is rough. The nature of the cards that people want to play in this deck come with certain limitations-
- Double sided mana ramp is going to be terrible against miracles
- 4 Discard spells and a slow clock mean combo is going to be a challenge MD
- No way to control/counter cards drawn mean protracted games that favor Nic Fit do not always work out
- 4+ drops in a Legacy mean that some games you will die with uncastable cards due to wasteland/stifle/counters/discard
Those are all some of core issues with the deck. You can pick some of these to solve but the deck doesnt have space to do them all. The deck is slanted to beat midrange fair decks and delverish decks. I would concentrate on beating those. Add cards to the board to shore up lands/post/combo and understand that this deck is not a 50% against the field deck.
I agree with all of this.
I will also re-assert that Thought-Knot Seer is likely one of the best ways to fix a couple of these problems. I understand that there are problems with that, probably better than some people in this thread due to the raw amount of time I've tried to work on diamond builds. 4 Therapy, 4 Thought-Knot is a very potent maindeck combination assuming that you have enough ramp to accel into the Thought-Knot early enough to matter. If they have the turn 1 and we didn't open a Therapy, oh well, you move on with your life. That's the price we pay.
Glen Elendra is a blue way to fix the middle two items on your list. This runs into a similar problem based on mana cost, but if you have enough early interaction / stall to be able to drop a Glen with U open, you're in pretty damn good shape.
The more I've theorycrafted and debated, the more I am firmly of the opinion that we've simply gone too far. In our constant need for evolution and adaptation, we over-evolved and missed our mark. We lost our identity by trying to be more than we were previously. Clearly there were metagame implications and impetuses for why this happened, and we do need to consider those when returning to our roots: but return is what we should do.
One likely place to look (where I am unable to do so, due to not owning large numbers of Taigas and Badlands anymore) is in Jund -- not Punishing Fires, not Scapeshift -- just Jund. Jund has reasonable sideboard options, and is naturally suited to the grindy card-advantage generating style of deck. You just play a billion 2-for-1s and removal spells and work the rest out from there against aggro. Furthermore, Jund has things like Xenagos (pw) and Kessig Wolf Run to tip the scales in the mid/late game. Thrag and Gitrog are both great 5s, and you have Broodmate and Primeval at 6 if you wish to go there. 4 drops offer Thrun (with Kessig), Nylea, Chameleon Colossus, and other beefy items. Etc.
Something that I want to look into is just how many colorless sources we would want to be reliably able to splash Thought-Knot into otherwise tricolor builds. 1 Wastes goes a long way in Nic Fit, especially if we're on Sakura Tribe Elder, and we're usually running 1-2 Towers and 1-2 other utility lands anyway. I acknowledge that it's greedy to consider, but I earnestly believe that Thought-Knot fixes way too many of our problems and steals way too many games for us not to give it a /thorough/ look.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
... One likely place to look (where I am unable to do so, due to not owning large numbers of Taigas and Badlands anymore) is in Jund -- not Punishing Fires, not Scapeshift -- just Jund. ...
Something that I want to look into is just how many colorless sources we would want to be reliably able to splash Thought-Knot into otherwise tricolor builds. 1 Wastes goes a long way in Nic Fit, especially if we're on Sakura Tribe Elder, and we're usually running 1-2 Towers and 1-2 other utility lands anyway. I acknowledge that it's greedy to consider, but I earnestly believe that Thought-Knot fixes way too many of our problems and steals way too many games for us not to give it a /thorough/ look.
In fact, Punishing Fire would of course come with 4 Groves = 4 colorless sources. Im not a big fan of that engine either, but wouldn't that solve your problem?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
I don't think Wilt Leaf is necessarily what we want, just because he's similar to Rhino - does nothing to fast decks / combo and is only relevant against Miracles if we are overextending. Looks like he'd be great at beating on creature decks smaller than ours, like Rhino, and not help us much in the matchups we have trouble with.
If you wanted a Liege wouldn't the G/B one be better? It pumps Rhino by the same amount, pumps Vet the same, pumps DRS more, and since it makes tokens it forces a Terminus on it's own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
The more I've theorycrafted and debated, the more I am firmly of the opinion that we've simply gone too far. In our constant need for evolution and adaptation, we over-evolved and missed our mark. We lost our identity by trying to be more than we were previously. Clearly there were metagame implications and impetuses for why this happened, and we do need to consider those when returning to our roots: but return is what we should do.
One likely place to look (where I am unable to do so, due to not owning large numbers of Taigas and Badlands anymore) is in Jund -- not Punishing Fires, not Scapeshift -- just Jund. Jund has reasonable sideboard options, and is naturally suited to the grindy card-advantage generating style of deck. You just play a billion 2-for-1s and removal spells and work the rest out from there against aggro. Furthermore, Jund has things like Xenagos (pw) and Kessig Wolf Run to tip the scales in the mid/late game. Thrag and Gitrog are both great 5s, and you have Broodmate and Primeval at 6 if you wish to go there. 4 drops offer Thrun (with Kessig), Nylea, Chameleon Colossus, and other beefy items. Etc.
I like Jund, as I've said a couple times if I can find a 2 or 4 drop CA piece that fits into the engine I've been using that's in red, I'll go Jund in an instant. I don't know if the Punishing engine is what you want, but it's definitely good. The 5's are a little worse in Xenagod and Gitrog than what Sigarda offers, but they're not horrible either.
If you want to splash colorless, Jund is the color to do it. Almost everything you want is single mana symbols and there's already Groves and maybe Kessig so it's the least painful splash. I'm still skeptical of 4c though because to go alongside the easy access to colorless comes the highest vulnerability to Wasteland and making Wasteland bad is one of our biggest advantages.
A few weeks ago though I tried Jund and it just didn't work well. I don't know if it was my build or the color combination just isn't as good as I thought it was. I got absolutely crushed by Eldrazi though going something like 0-7 in games before I called it quits.
Edit: Been reading through the Zoo thread and they've reported success with both Domri and 4 cmc Chandra. I'm not sure about Domri in this archetype, I've tried him but the creature density just isn't there, he's a bit weak without a Top for setup though he does fill the role of CA+Removal. Chandra is interesting though, it fits the 4 slot I'm looking for a CA piece in, works well with top, but is also evasion or there's Xenagos as a combat walker. With any of these options I think I need to give up Bob and look for something else in the 2 slot.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Blue is certainly a way to solve some of those issues. Access to Fow and other hard counters allows the deck to really play the long game effectively. Baleful strix is the best 2 drop for nic fit (cantrip, blue for fow, and lessens the chance you get blown away by aggro). Jace is the best planeswalker or really 4 drop in general as we have early discard and deed to back him up. BS is a better GSZ as its not as targeted but can smooth out the hands to ensure you dont die to land flood/screw.
The problem with blue in my view has been kind of 2 fold. The first is that the deck is way slower than any other nic fit. Even pfire has primeval titan into wolfrun to just win when you get to 6-7 land. Blue has that issue. The second is I see a lot of people in this thread want to be "creative". Blue decks tend to play a lot of the same cards other legacy decks do like BS, Fow, Jace, etc so the deck doesnt have as much of a rogue feel. Maybe thats wrong idk.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dalton!
Is there a formula how nic fit should be build?
Haha, nah. There is no formula here. If there was then this thread would be way less active. It was a fun short ride with Siege Rhino, but trading those for SFM and the utility brigade is better. Well for me at least. I do like having 1 Rhino to carry equipment, just for Trample. Lightning Bolt to the face can sometimes be relevant.
Having access to Jitte was most valuable. Against BigRed to protect it from Inferno Titan (with Swords to clean up) and against Marit Lage to get above 20 life, and thus having a full turn extra. Narrow cases where creativity is rewarded.
Played some meta choices in the 75 like having Gaddock Teeg main (for BigRed/Storm) and Siege Rhino over Thrun (for Goblins).
Games where intersting, felt a little behind on RG Lands. Fair games are super grindy until Sun Titan makes it unfair. Although i must admit that Veteran/Therapy and SFM package can also feel like cheating at the right times. To the very least, it was like good old times.
The only thing i felt missing was Flip Nissa, but i just love playing that card.
So morale of this is that there is nothing set in stone. Play what feels comfortable and know how to metagame. Tweaking this deck can be a pain and causes headaches. But its worth it.
Main 61;
3 Veteran
3 DRS
3 SFM
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 E.Witness
1 Rhino
1 Meren
1 SwagTusk
1 Sigarda
1 Sun Titan
4 GSZ
3 SDT
4 Therapy
3 Deed
2 Decay
1 McPulse
3 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 P.Tower
5 Duals
7 Basics
7 Fetch
Board:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Garruk R
1 Peedle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 G.Charm
2 Cannonist
1 C.Priest
1 Revoker
1 Thalia
1 QPM
On a side note. Swords to Plowshares can feel real awkward. While trying to slowly close down games, plow just seems a timewalk in out opponents advantage. The argument of PtE given tempo in the early game is true, but negated by the grindy nature of the deck (on top of the symmetry of Veteran Explorer). I do like PtE more in a Rhino list, but Swords can feel so wrong at times. The only actual deck where i like Plow over Path is in the Miracles MU, where you'd typically do not want to give away free lands.
Miracles, i am thinking more in terms like, if we can't seem to effectively win that MU, then why bother to force a suboptimal list just to improve a couple percentages while decreasing maybe more percentages over the total span of the field.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
At the moment I'm just trying to calm down after ****ing up casting a surgical extraction in G3 against reanimator in game I would have won in an otherwise very successful league -.- Casting surgical extraction online isn't very intuitive. My computer is lucky I haven't thrown it out of the window. If I win my last match tomorrow evening and 4-1 the league, can we all pretend I 5-0'd it instead? I guess not.
@ Ricardio, thank you for the recognition, I'm very happy being known as "the SFM guy"
@Navsi, I will reply to your post and am very much looking forward to some productive sideboarding discussion that this thread deserves :) just been super busy, will attempt tomorrow.
I'm very happy with my SFM list and will post it tomorrow with the miracles discussion for those that care.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
RE@Fireiced --
Nic Fit in general is weak to "the nuts." That being said, the format as a whole is moving more and more in this direction. Just having Force of Will is no longer good enough -- consider your Eldrazi opponent's g1 opener, for example. You can't FoW the Eye of Ugin, which is what let him spew 6 power of dudes on turn 1. You /can/ hit the Thought-Knot, but you're still taking an enormous amount of damage and you're way behind in cards and board state.
The Oaths of Nissa are interesting. They're like smaller Ancient Stirrings that can find a wider range of thing. I feel like digging 5 with Stirrings is probably better than digging 3 with Oath, but I could be wrong here.
Surprised you skipped on Ugin. Ugin is a much better top-end planeswalker than Karn is, I think.
Eldrazi Temple is an interesting call. I hadn't actually considered Temples before, but I guess the only real drawback of them is that it makes activating Eye of Ugin harder. Not like we can't still do it, but it would be harder. I think that the Temples are why Fierce Empath underperformed for you. Usually, when I'm grabbing or playing Empath, I can play whatever monstrosity I tutor up with it on the same turn because of Cloudpost mana. I do think that there could be merit in going lowerish, though, for the Temples. Temples give you more clean ways to turn 2 Thought-Knot Seers, which are fantastic and extremely rare in my current build. It's possible that Tron lands need another look, while we're on this topic. That would almost necessitate Titania, I think...but it's possible that she's correct to run anyway.
I've considered World Breaker -- the problem I have with him is that he's not Zenithable, and for a non-Zenithable eldrazi thing, I'd rather go a couple mana bigger and run Ulamog 2.0, which has a much, much better body and effect. Being able to exile 2 creatures has saved my bacon a couple of times now.
Fitting in removal is the last piece of the puzzle, I think. If we can figure out how to squeeze some spot removal into the GB<> versions, I think that we're basically there...just a couple of final tuning issues to resolve, like getting the sideboard and manabase perfect. The space for spot removal is definitely the trickiest problem.
Would like to thank you for the bump of awareness regarding this :) Honestly, I was on the Eldrazi Train (I still rumble with Legacy Eldrazi sometimes) and it caught up to me that my favourite Legacy deck can actually power out Eldrazi with the GB Vet + Therapy shell. The T2 Thought-Knot consistency is disgustingly consistent with DRS, Vets and Eldrazi Temples.
The Oath of Nissa is mostly for the flexibility to dig for wider range of stuff like you have explained but also growing Goyf. No doubt Goyf is a singleton in my list, I have added another in my current build. Stirrings in testing had a lot of feel bads, I stirred and found that coloured creature / planeswalker in the 5 felt SO BAD.
I guess Ugin is much better, we can even add 1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon for LuLz.
The whole Eldrazi package is un-zenithable which is a major minus in jamming the Eldrazi shell into Nic Fit. Most of the time vs Miracles the game becomes a top deck and the World Breaker + Drownyard Temple loop felt better in testing vs Ulamog 2.0 and Kozilek 1.0 (7 mana is leagues easier than 10 mana, could be because I ran Temples instead of Loci lands for faster and more consistent >T4 Thought-Knot Seers). Kozilek 2.0 just sucks, argument may be brought in for his second "counterspell" ability but he suffers from being an ignorable threat that does not affect the battlefield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I agree with all of this.
I will also re-assert that Thought-Knot Seer is likely one of the best ways to fix a couple of these problems. I understand that there are problems with that, probably better than some people in this thread due to the raw amount of time I've tried to work on diamond builds. 4 Therapy, 4 Thought-Knot is a very potent maindeck combination assuming that you have enough ramp to accel into the Thought-Knot early enough to matter. If they have the turn 1 and we didn't open a Therapy, oh well, you move on with your life. That's the price we pay.
Something that I want to look into is just how many colorless sources we would want to be reliably able to splash Thought-Knot into otherwise tricolor builds. 1 Wastes goes a long way in Nic Fit, especially if we're on Sakura Tribe Elder, and we're usually running 1-2 Towers and 1-2 other utility lands anyway. I acknowledge that it's greedy to consider, but I earnestly believe that Thought-Knot fixes way too many of our problems and steals way too many games for us not to give it a /thorough/ look.
Thought-Knot on T2 or 3 is really the key in me winning those previously bad matchups ala Miracles and Lands. It is a fast clock (1/5 of the starting life total afterall) and it disrupts even better than clique (in the sense they only get the card back after the deal with Thought-Knot opposed to getting the card right away). To me, splashing for Thought-Knot is a great idea, but it is a bad idea if you do not have a plan to accelerate it out. Relying on Vets dying, Sakura Tribe Elders and those random utility lands will likely result in a T4 and beyond Thought-Knot Seer where his effectiveness has been greatly diminished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
About GSZ, I would always play 4. Maybe people are expecting too much of it, like it can magically turn around lost games. Sure, if it is one of those games in which you get overrun by Eldrazis or the opponent has Griselbrand in play or had Jace active for 2 turns GSZ won't be able to win you the game. But if you neutrally judge the strength of the card I have no doubt that GSZ is still one of the best cards in the deck:
- Explorer is still the key card to our deck and GSZ simply doubles the number of Explorers we can play so that is pretty amazing in itself.
- with Tracker it is great card draw when you are flooded
- with Witness and Path in the yard it is a better Shriekmaw
- it allows to play only one Sigarda and still consistently have it
- it lets you play 5 copies of two of our best hate cards in Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze and only commit 1/75 slots for each
I always run Nic Fit with this mentality, but I guess the Eldrazi sub core makes me want to run less GSZ due to a smaller pool of targets.
Anyways below is my new list where I 5-0 my LGS Wednesday Legacy night. Getting that EXP Dust Bowl is SWEET.
Won against R1 - BUGr Delver, R2 - Shardless BUG, R3 - Lands, R4 - ANT, R5 - Infect
GB<> Nic Fit
[20] Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
[8] Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
[5] Enchantments
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Pernicious Deed
[2] Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
[2] Planeswalker
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Karn Liberated
[23] Lands
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Llanowar Wastes
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Reality Smasher
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Ended up going 2-2 in a small local today.
Lost to burn 0-2
Lost to miracles 0-2
Beat lands 2-0
Beat burning reanimator 2-0.
Highlight was revealing a siege rhino from sorin against lands. And also blocking a marit lage token with a 9/11 dromaka.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I so want to be able to cast Thought-Knot Seer, but that manabase... I may do my sudokus in pen, but I'm not brave enough to run that.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I so want to be able to cast Thought-Knot Seer, but that manabase... I may do my sudokus in pen, but I'm not brave enough to run that.
Cut the 3rd colour? I run 8 colourless sources and have 5 tutors for Wastes (4 Vet Explorer 1 Sakura Tribe Elder)
Edit: 8 colourless sources because Eye of Ugin is not a <> source
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fireiced
Cut the 3rd colour? I run 8 colourless sources and have 5 tutors for Wastes (4 Vet Explorer 1 Sakura Tribe Elder)
Edit: 8 colourless sources because Eye of Ugin is not a <> source
Still, you have such a hard time hitting 14 initial green/black sources.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Not much to report here, our Legacy tournaments on Thursdays have morphed into people wanting to test for the GP, and as I'm told all the time Nic Fit isn't a real deck (aka, not T1 or Burn) so no one wants to test against it, and that limits my games. So I only have a mere 1 round to report against Eldrazi and Taxes.
Had a close game 1, I should have won it but I screwed up with my top, which caused Bob to kill me. Had lethal on the next turn otherwise.
Game 2, I was down and I was able to get a loop going with Shriekmaw/Volrath's Stronghold and completely crush them. It's a pretty good matchup with Rhinos in the first place, but endless removal sure does feel good.
In game 3 I faced the dreaded double Vial hand, and in short order faced 3x Phyrexian Revoker (DRS, Deed, SDT), and a Thalia... in my hand was Golgari Charm. Sometimes things just work out.
Still wanting to go Jund, but every time I'm ready to take the plunge and get the parts I'm missing, the white cards to something stupid, like get me out of a jam that red never could.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Not much to report here, our Legacy tournaments on Thursdays have morphed into people wanting to test for the GP, and as I'm told all the time Nic Fit isn't a real deck (aka, not T1 or Burn) so no one wants to test against it, and that limits my games. So I only have a mere 1 round to report against Eldrazi and Taxes.
...
Still wanting to go Jund, but every time I'm ready to take the plunge and get the parts I'm missing, the white cards to something stupid, like get me out of a jam that red never could.
The MtG community can be so awesome from time to time *cough*.
And that's why you run Abzan! The cards can be crazy high impact.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
For the colorless manabase, if you want to go three colour, it looks to me like there are two basic options:
- Painland heavy - this is more reliable in a lot of ways IMO - you get more sources of every colour and support Punishing Fire, but the manabase does a lot of damage to itself and doesn't accelerate you like sol lands do.
5 Fetchlands in whatever configuration
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Wastes
This puts us on 22 lands, 15G/14B/13R/9C without including Vets and other ways of fetching Wastes. The second Swamp could potentially become a Wolf-Run if we aren't heavy on the BB spells - but we're playing Punishing Fire, so Liliana might be in the list too. Grove and Wolf Run don't like Wasteland, but it might be possible to play Loam in here too?
- Sol Lands - this is a lot less stable but potentially very explosive. Basically we need to keep our G/B/R sources high, so we end up running more fetchlands to compensate for the mono-colorless sources we're taking.
9 Fetchlands in whatever configuration
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Wastes
With the same 22 lands, we're on 14G/14B/12R/4C, so we have a lot more trouble casting our TKS without a Vet/STE, but when we do it can come down on turn two. The list will also run Tireless Tracker and Gitrog really well due to the abundance of fetchlands.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Still, you have such a hard time hitting 14 initial green/black sources.
For some reason I was never screwed once off B or G mana. Cavern of Souls helped there to add 2 more coloured sources for creatures. Maybe the Karakas is unwarranted and should be another Llanowar Wastes :wink:
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Grixis & D&T are MUs you don't specifically need to adapt to so that's out the window.
Broodmate is a card that shouldn't even be considered for Junk Fit. Dromoka falls to all problems Miracles present. It dies to both StP and Terminus, so it isn't going to help you there.
If you want to be better equiped to deal with Miracles Thragtusk is a thing, and so are combat planeswalkers. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk and Sorin are the go-to PWs.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
We need to be able to beat the meta decks and random brews. Everything else is non-existent. Take the built(rhino fit, sfm fit, etc.) and work on it. keep this enchantress stuff and whatever else in its own thread. Jain has put in a lot of effort on SFM fit and many of us have spent hours on rhino fit. By polluting the thread will all these not nic fit deck brews, it dilutes the waters and makes it an unnavigable body of thoughts.
I think it's about my tiny contribution and the ones that came out already working on that kind of option you're talking about here.
Sorry, I'm new in this thread and forum. So I don't know if you're a troll or just some conservator. So I will answer it. Perhaps I should just ignore it. So be it.
If you refer to the very first post of this thread, you will find that an enchantements fit fits (ah!ah!) properly 90% of the core which define a Nic Fit deck. So this is the proper thread for it. No Argothian Enchantress in here, so it would be rude to post it in an Enchantress thread...
You're not the only one to have spent hours on a Nic Fit way, I'm on my list since several months before puting a brew here to go ahead.
You know, Rhino fit is quite new too in Nic Fit history. And since your time seems really precious, I will give you an abstract of the last pages about Rhino Fit (hope to not spoil you too much..): Rhino was great on paper and good on a previous meta. But actually, it didn't fill it's main purpose. It's not a big enought threat against miracle, not the finisher it would be expected to be. It was already a bit weak against a good tharmo or a gurmag angler. But now it tends to be totally overcomed by Eldrazis... All the recent posts I read about it was about no or less rhino and find a proper substitute.
Sorry and go ahead man.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Grixis & D&T are MUs you don't specifically need to adapt to so that's out the window.
So the "creatures pool" is enough good for my meta?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Broodmate is a card that shouldn't even be considered for Junk Fit. Dromoka falls to all problems Miracles present. It dies to both StP and Terminus, so it isn't going to help you there.
I saw this list, so I wrote that...
