4 Card Blind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nasst

Channel (it's an interesting combo piece, specially in a format without eldrazi titans)
Dark Depths (The combo is hard enough to pull off, specially without hexmage)
Elixir of Immortality (there are many, many effects that let you recycle cards)
Fastbond (better mana acceleration is legal, and as a combo piece is interesting)
Flash (creatureless format, lmao)
Force of will (you're 2-for-1ing yourself, it's a real cost to pay for interaction)
Leyline of Singularity
Mana Drain (this is barely better than counterspell, which is unplayable, imo)
Mana Vault (this is mostly a worse dark ritual, dark ritual is legal)
Time Walk (i think people don't realize how big is this card's fall from regular magic to here)

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Without spoiling any tech that isn't already posted here in previous seasons:

I think Fastbond was banned because of Turbocat: Savannah, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, Selesnya Sanctuary = T2 kill
In a creatureless format it's fine. Even with creatures, this is much more easily disrupted than other combo.

Leyline of Singularity was banned because of the Karakas combo, which matters less in creatureless.

Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes an uncounterable indestructible instant speed 20/20 flying on turn 3. It's 1 turn slower than Hexmage, but there's still space for 1 disruption slot. Without seeing how the format shakes out yet, that seems very hard to beat.

Elixir of Immortality was broken in other seasons and became a late addition to the banlist. It was banned for its low requirements to recycle compared to other engines (made it a flexible fit for many decks) and because it has a solo-combo of +5 life per turn (which many decks can't beat). In a creatureless format, Elixir seems even more busted.

Channel is also easily abused. Not as bad as T2 Emrakul, but you can still basically win turn 2 OTP.

Force of Will was a meta choice. In other seasons we allowed both Force of Will and T2 combos. Later we banned both Force and T2 combos. I think you can't have one without the other. Force is necessary to police fast combo. For a creatureless bannathon, it seems fine to have both Force and fast combo.

Flash, Mana Drain, Leyline, Fastbond, Mana Vault, and Time Walk all seem fine to unban.

4. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade, Mind Flayer, Brazen Borrower

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, MOUNTAIN, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger (Mountain replaces a banned card.) WW
2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, discipline enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer LL
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Settler LL
5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage LL
6. PJim: Desert, Keldon Megaliths, Ghitu Encampment, Ice Floe LL
7. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Mangara of Corondor, Giver of Runes LL
8. Nasst: Bayou, Raugrin Triome, Tidehollow Sculler, Scion of Draco LL
9. RoosterCocoa: Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Urza's Tower, Bane of Bala Ged LL
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler, Sidisi's Faithful LL
11. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant LL
12. FTW: Plateau, Tireless Tribe, Blazing Rootwalla, Vengevine LL

2w = 6 points

That went poorly.

9. RoosterCocoa: Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Urza's Tower, Bane of Bala Ged

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, MOUNTAIN, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger (Mountain replaces a banned card.)
You are too slow and can't block and kill Bane of Bala Ged. WW

2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, discipline enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer
I attack on turn 4, so OTP I attack when you have one creature and cause you to sacrifice both your lands and then your creature on the next attack. OTD you have both creatures in play when I attack, so you can sacrifice both of your lands, then double block and kill Bane of Bala Ged. WD

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Settler
I can't beat fast land destruction. LL

4. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade, Mind Flayer, Brazen Borrower
The only things you can do before I attack with Bane of Bala Ged are play Petty Theft to bounce Bane or play Brazen Borrower. However, neither of these buys you enough time to build up counters to play Mind Flayer, so I can force you to sacrifice your lands. WW

5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage
You can't make tokens quickly enough to block and kill Bane of Bala Ged. WW

6. PJim: Desert, Keldon Megaliths, Ghitu Encampment, Ice Floe
I can force you to sacrifice two lands but after that Bane of Bala Ged stays tapped due to Ice Floe. DD

7. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Mangara of Corondor, Giver of Runes
OTP I attack, but you just sacrifice your lands then use Mangara to exile Bane of Bala Ged and win with Giver of Runes. OTD is the same. LL

8. Nasst: Bayou, Raugrin Triome, Tidehollow Sculler, Scion of Draco
Tidehollow Sculler takes my Bane of Bala Ged. LL

10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler, Sidisi's Faithful
I can't beat fast land destruction. LL

11. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant
I can make you exile one of your lands before you can play Cast Off. WW

12. FTW: Plateau, Tireless Tribe, Blazing Rootwalla, Vengevine
OTP I play Bane of Bala Ged when I am at 8. If you attack I can block and kill Vengevine and have enough life that I can attack and make you exile your other permanents, so you don't attack. If I attack, you can exile your land and Tireless Tribe and double block to kill Bane of Bala Ged. Therefore, we draw. OTD you are too fast for me. DL

9W 4D 9L = 31

I was hoping this round would be more similar to the last one, with lots of small removal and slow threats. It wasn't perfect, but not nearly as bad as some of my recent rounds have been.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

On your play you get to attack with the new tokens, but you also don't get to block with Alirios & bounce (will be tapped), so I can get more 3/3 attacks through too.

You're right that I can't win, but I think I can manoever around being put on the back foot.

Reeplcheep OTP
T1 Karakas, Puppet / tapped Battleground
T2 Chancery tapped / Mountain, sacrifice Battleground, Anurid Scavenger
T3 Karakas, Alirios tapped. 3/2 token / redraw Battleground, tapped Battleground, Fanatic
T4 Alirios doesn't untap. Attack with token. Fanatic chumps & pings you [R=19] / redraw & play Fanatic. Anurid attacks [R=16] EOT Karakas bounces Alirios
T5 Alirios tapped. 2nd 3/2 token. 1 token attacks [F=17] / upkeep ping untapped token, redraw Fanatic, ping again (dead), Anurid attacks [R=13]
T6 Alirios doesn't untap. Attack with token [F=14] / redraw & play Fanatic. Anurid attacks [R=10] EOT Karakas bounces Alirios

You can stall by chumping with Puppet, but I don't think you can actually get me on the back foot here, because I can also eventually chump with Fanatic again & ping for the last damages before you have enough to swarm around him.

If you stop attacking at a high enough life, then I can't attack back either and I have to use up pings to match your token production (instead of letting you get some tokens and racing them with pings), so we would draw.

WD 4-1?

Edit: If you don't attack with the 3/2 on turn 4, I can double ping on my turn 4 and freely attack with my 3/3, so you can't put me on the back foot that way (and you still have to bounce the 2/3 before it untaps, otherwise you miss a turn on token production)

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Asthereal should have the same issue that FTW had last round. It should actually be WL since he can’t double ping until t4.

GoblinMaxx!master Results for Round "More Goblins!"

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, MOUNTAIN, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger (Mountain replaces a banned card.)
Goblin ping :( 0-6

2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, discipline enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer
Goblin smash! 6-0

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Settler
That's me on Goblins!

4. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade, Mind Flayer, Brazen Borrower
Goblin smash! 6-0

5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage
Mage 3-3

6. PJim: Desert, Keldon Megaliths, Ghitu Encampment, Ice Floe
Goblin stare 2-2

7. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Mangara of Corondor, Giver of Runes
Goblin smash! 6-0

8. Nasst: Bayou, Raugrin Triome, Tidehollow Sculler, Scion of Draco
Sculler 3-3

9. RoosterCocoa: Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Urza's Tower, Bane of Bala Ged
Goblin smash! 6-0

10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler, Sidisi's Faithful
That's me! 3-3

11. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant
Chaplain 3-3

12. FTW: Plateau, Tireless Tribe, Blazing Rootwalla, Vengevine
Too many :( 0-6

Total: 38 points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa

2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, discipline enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer
I attack on turn 4, so OTP I attack when you have one creature and cause you to sacrifice both your lands and then your creature on the next attack. OTD you have both creatures in play when I attack, so you can sacrifice both of your lands, then double block and kill Bane of Bala Ged. WD

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You are right that I can block and kill bane, but then I should win with a venturer with protection against odd. WL?
I will edit.

Ugh, terrible round. This format of several known quantities is brutal for me. I never know what to do. I should have just copied a deck from last round if I wanted points, which I do, but I really don't like copying decks. Even if it's the right meta call, it takes the fun out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage
me, shamelessly stealing a deck from last round


11. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant
I can't beat your Wrath. LL

0-6

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I think you win if you make an army of 1/1s, let yourself get wrathed, then use Kris Mage to discard Ulamog and rebuild. Should be WW for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nasst

I know some choices would probably be controversial (all LD is in, all 1 mana discard spells are in, misstep is in, etc), but at the very least these are some cards which, in my estimation should definitively *not* be banned:

Channel (it's an interesting combo piece, specially in a format without eldrazi titans)
Dark Depths (The combo is hard enough to pull off, specially without hexmage)
Elixir of Immortality (there are many, many effects that let you recycle cards)
Fastbond (better mana acceleration is legal, and as a combo piece is interesting)
Flash (creatureless format, lmao)
Force of will (you're 2-for-1ing yourself, it's a real cost to pay for interaction)
Leyline of Singularity
Mana Drain (this is barely better than counterspell, which is unplayable, imo)
Mana Vault (this is mostly a worse dark ritual, dark ritual is legal)
Time Walk (i think people don't realize how big is this card's fall from regular magic to here)

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It makes sense to ban Time Walk in a Legacy season. :tongue: But yes, some of those don't matter.

I think turn 1 discard spells are really boring and I'm in favour of banning them all, or at least Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy (Inquisition is more interesting). The problem is that most matchups just become 3-3 in a very uninteresting way. They're also very played-out, and I haven't been here for half as long as some. Misstep is also borderline because at least there's the counterplay of not casting 1 mv spells.

To add to what FTW said, even if Dark Depths is beatable, it's only really beatable by a deck that is dedicated to beating it and it won't do much outside of that. It will win early and boringly. Elixir and Channel at least aren't quite as boring, but they're basically their own rounds. I'm not a fan of them, but I can see the argument.

Me. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, MOUNTAIN, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger (Mountain replaces a banned card.)
By my math, I win on the draw at 1 life without playing Chaplain, though I think Chaplain does better anyway. WW
2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, Discipline Enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer LL
Nils is an insane find. I'm not sure I've ever read that card. How long have you been waiting for it? When I played Pried of the Blessed Graf, I only found it an hour or so before submitting it.
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Settler WL
4. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade, Mind Flayer, Brazen Borrower WW*
5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage LL
6. PJim: Desert, Keldon Megaliths, Ghitu Encampment, Ice Floe LL
7. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Mangara of Corondor, Giver of Runes LL
8. Nasst: Bayou, Raugrin Triome, Tidehollow Sculler, Scion of Draco LL
I very nearly ran each of these cards, but not together. Silly me.
9. RoosterCocoa: Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Urza's Tower, Bane of Bala Ged LL
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler, Sidisi's Faithful WL
12. FTW: Plateau, Tireless Tribe, Blazing Rootwalla, Vengevine WL

*Not totally sure, but we trade Chaplain - Borrower hits until I get to 5 counters (W:15, S:11), but then Chaplain keeps getting in. I can't trade Colonnades, so you can attack with your as you get counters but you'll be at 2 charge counters when my Colonnade forces a Borrower block, and I win the next turn. If you play Flayer, I wrath and then win with the giant.

7W for 21 points. I knew this round would be bad, but didn't think it would be quite this bad. Too many weird directions to go, and I couldn't decide if I wanted to fight against Mangara, Lackey, Vengevine, Anurid Scavenger, or general other cards. I went a bit too big and clunky and it did not go well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Without spoiling any tech that isn't already posted here in previous seasons:

I think Fastbond was banned because of Turbocat: Savannah, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, Selesnya Sanctuary = T2 kill
In a creatureless format it's fine. Even with creatures, this is much more easily disrupted than other combo.

Leyline of Singularity was banned because of the Karakas combo, which matters less in creatureless.

Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes an uncounterable indestructible instant speed 20/20 flying on turn 3. It's 1 turn slower than Hexmage, but there's still space for 1 disruption slot. Without seeing how the format shakes out yet, that seems very hard to beat.

Elixir of Immortality was broken in other seasons and became a late addition to the banlist. It was banned for its low requirements to recycle compared to other engines (made it a flexible fit for many decks) and because it has a solo-combo of +5 life per turn (which many decks can't beat). In a creatureless format, Elixir seems even more busted.

Channel is also easily abused. Not as bad as T2 Emrakul, but you can still basically win turn 2 OTP.

Force of Will was a meta choice. In other seasons we allowed both Force of Will and T2 combos. Later we banned both Force and T2 combos. I think you can't have one without the other. Force is necessary to police fast combo. For a creatureless bannathon, it seems fine to have both Force and fast combo.

Flash, Mana Drain, Leyline, Fastbond, Mana Vault, and Time Walk all seem fine to unban.

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Honestly, some of these cards are on the banned list because they're banned in Legacy and/or restricted in Vintage and I didn't feel like analysing them extensively.
My rationale there was: as long as those cards never see play anyway, most people won't miss them.

Leyline of Singularity was indeed banned because of the Karakas combo, but I think we might want to keep it banned, because this format won't be creatureless. It'll be "creature card"-less.
A lot of decks will still use creatures, but will make them in other ways (tokens and the like).
I'll keep an eye on suggestions posted here, and propose a banned list to start the season. If enough people like the idea, that is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes an uncounterable indestructible instant speed 20/20 flying on turn 3. It's 1 turn slower than Hexmage, but there's still space for 1 disruption slot. Without seeing how the format shakes out yet, that seems very hard to beat.

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I had not really considered how hard it is to interact with Dark Depths, specially given that we ban most land interaction. Karakas + Leyline will probably still have some relevance, vs, manlands and tokens, but it doesn't seem particularly broken. FoW seems like it's always the good guy, lmao, since it's inherently interactive and card disadvantage, I think that even if we ban fast combo, FoW should stay in.

I'm thinking about the fast mana a little bit more, and

Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors

Seem like they will either be banned or the best cards for the first few rounds. Even force of willing a dark ritualed threat is card neutral, so it shouldn't be as much of an issue. The rest of the fast mana (Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal) has more of a real cost attached. That being said, I'm not necessarily against the first few rounds being all about fast mana, I'm just saying, it needs to be considered.

I am 100% against banning the strong 3-4 mana threats, specially the 3 mana "discard your opps hand" variants. It's clear to me that if those seem to be an issue, it's because of fast mana. The only exception potentially being Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, not because it's too strong, but rather because it invalidates everything else at that cost or above (why would you play anything else 4+ mana in your storeland deck?)

EDIT: After reading Asthereal's post, I changed my mind on leyline of singularity. Considering the fact that tokens are even more vulnerable to bouncing than normal creatures, leyline+karakas is probably too strong an engine.

Personally I prefer keeping the fast mana. Otherwise it's too difficult to play anything more than 1 drops (or you spend half the bannathon losing to Sea's Claim variants). In a noncreature format, it's even harder to make 1 drop strategies. The fast mana opens up a bigger range of cards and strategies. You can play bigger spells fast, but it takes more cards, so you're weaker to disruption like Force. And yes, they get banned quickly anyway.

But then the "discard hand" cards become a problem. Stuff like City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, Induced Amnesia + threat is goes at least WL (if not better) against non-FoW decks.

I would prefer to remove fast mana, and one mana discard. Why not one mana LD too?
In this season, at the beginning I had the feeling to be just waiting for fast mana to get banned.

Maybe we could add one tab on the spreadsheet (I could do that) for everyone to say yes/no to various categories of things to be banned?

I think categories would make more sense than cards, and once we agree on categories we can figure out the cards.
Possible categories (examples):
- broken mana (mox, ring, lotus)
- fast mana (petal, CoT, tomb, LED)
- 1-mana discard (TS, cabal, etc)
- full hand discard (induced amnesia)
- 1 mana LD (spreading seas, raze)
- T2 combo (channel)

I think the whole point of the no creatures vintage bannathon would be to play through the broken stuff. I would prefer the minimal banlist.

If people want a lower power format so they can do cool stuff, I suggest doing a 5CB pauper bannathon. The four card pauper bannathon was one of my favourites and an extra card allows a lot more interaction

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I think the whole point of the no creatures vintage bannathon would be to play through the broken stuff. I would prefer the minimal banlist.

If people want a lower power format so they can do cool stuff, I suggest doing a 5CB pauper bannathon. The four card pauper bannathon was one of my favourites and an extra card allows a lot more interaction

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I must have missed the Vintage memo, I thought it was Legacy.

If it's Vintage, no-creatures, and a bannathon, then I support the broken mana and combos. It will be banned quickly and is part of the Vintage spirit. There are also fewer interesting ways to win with noncreature cards, so that should open up more options. Force is also much weaker with Misthollow Griffin out of the format, so it is a real 2-for-1.

I support banning 1-mana discard and 1-mana LD because there are so many and it takes up most of the bannathon to get rid of every single iteration (before other strategies can be unlocked). We've already explored those formats enough.

Fast mana means you can still play turn 1 discard/LD, but it costs more cards. The no-creature aspect means you can't just cram in Nether Spirit or Chronomaton as an easy wincon, so it's not as easy to spend multiple cards on disruption and still win the game. I think that might balance it out. Even if it doesn't, at least it would be different than what we've had before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

I must have missed the Vintage memo, I thought it was Legacy.

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Both are an option. We've done Legacy for this season. Perhaps it's fun to do vintage next season?
If we go 15 rounds, I think running out of wincons is a bigger threat than having degenerate stuff legal and dominating.

Asthereal's scores for round let's steal an illegal deck and get away with both stealing and the illegal card. :eek:

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, MOUNTAIN, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger (Mountain replaces a banned card.) <-me
2. dte: rakdos carnarium, karakas, Nils, discipline enforcer, Lavabrink Venturer LL
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Settler WW
4. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade, Mind Flayer, Brazen Borrower LL
5. alphastryk: Stomping Ground, Llanowar Mentor, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kris Mage WW
6. PJim: Desert, Keldon Megaliths, Ghitu Encampment, Ice Floe WW
7. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Mangara of Corondor, Giver of Runes WL
8. Nasst: Bayou, Raugrin Triome, Tidehollow Sculler, Scion of Draco LL
9. RoosterCocoa: Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Urza's Tower, Bane of Bala Ged LL
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler, Sidisi's Faithful WW
11. silkster: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Realm-Cloaked Giant LL
12. FTW: Plateau, Tireless Tribe, Blazing Rootwalla, Vengevine WW

Total: 33 points

Scores for round 12:
1. Nasst: 54 - 4,9
2. dte: 42 - 3,8
3. FTW: 40 - 3,6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: 38 - 3,5
4. maxx!: 38 - 3,5
6. Asthereal (TO): 33 - 3
6. Reeplcheep: 33 - 3
8. RoosterCocoa: 31 - 2,8
9. PJim: 30 - 2,7
10. silkster: 21 - 1,9
11. alphastryk: 18 - 1,6
12. Wrath of Pie: 6 - 0,5

Which leads to these bannings:
Bayou
Blazing Rootwalla
Karakas
Lavabrink Venturer
Nils, discipline enforcer
Plateau
Rakdos carnarium
Raugrin Triome
Scion of Draco
Tidehollow Sculler
Tireless Tribe
Vengevine

And standings for the season now look like this:
1. PJim: 47,1
2. dte: 44,5
3. silkster: 42,5
4. Asthereal (TO): 37,8
5. GoblinSmashmaster: 31,1
5. FTW: 31,1
7. Reeplcheep: 31
8. RoosterCocoa: 30,4
9. maxx!: 29,7
10. Wrath of Pie: 26,9
11. alphastryk: 24,7
12. Nasst: 9,3

So another excellent performance by our new player. Well done! Also, PJim maintains a comfortable lead still, despite dte fighting back a bit.
Somehow, the fight for 5th place has turned into an absolute nailbiter. Gobbo and FTW are tied, with Reep just 0.1 SP behind.

ROUND 13 OF SEASON 11: LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON has started.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 13, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 9th of February at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Dauthi Slayer, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S11R13 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding! :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

If it's Vintage, no-creatures, and a bannathon, then I support the broken mana and combos. It will be banned quickly and is part of the Vintage spirit. There are also fewer interesting ways to win with noncreature cards, so that should open up more options. Force is also much weaker with Misthollow Griffin out of the format, so it is a real 2-for-1.

I support banning 1-mana discard and 1-mana LD because there are so many and it takes up most of the bannathon to get rid of every single iteration (before other strategies can be unlocked). We've already explored those formats enough.

Fast mana means you can still play turn 1 discard/LD, but it costs more cards. The no-creature aspect means you can't just cram in Nether Spirit or Chronomaton as an easy wincon, so it's not as easy to spend multiple cards on disruption and still win the game. I think that might balance it out. Even if it doesn't, at least it would be different than what we've had before.

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I strongly agree with everything here (and I'm not surprised to be agreeing with FTW). One round being Cabal Therapy, the next being Duress, and the next being Thoughtseize is a bit boring indeed.

The only new suggestion I have is that we ban all decks above a certain threshold, perhaps all decks >3.0 or ≥3.5. I feel like a card has done its job and seen its glory at that point, and we can move on. I might be in the minority opinion here, but figured I'd check.

I like the point threshold for bans especially as we continue to add more participants and given the amount of different broken things that should exist in any vintage bannathon

I really do second the 3.0 threshold as well.
In this season the gobs (both Welder, lackey, and fanatical) did regularly score fine yet are always there, and it is constricting the meta.

Also, if we do not ban enough upfront, it would solve the issue ;)

Looks like most here seem interested in a Vintage bannathon, with not too many bans upfront, and a 3.0 season point threshold for bannings.
Anyone strongly opposed to this idea?

Also, deadline has passed, and we're missing entries from FTW and Nasst. I'll give you guys some more time while I do work stuff.

Submitted.

I agree with threshold > 3.0 (keeping 3.0 is fine). Some decks like the Goblin combos have scored 4th-5th multiple times and we keep having to play around them for many rounds. Banning more will help keep the rounds fresh and preserve the spirit of a bannathon.

A 3.0 threshold concerns me with mana sources. If we'd had such a threshold for this tournament, we'd likely be very low on, if not completely without any FE/INV saclands, probably very color limited on storage lands, and otherwise largely stuck with single mana producing lands.

I still think a non-mana banathon might be a good way to go. I don't think having City of Traitors for the whole tournament would've made this less interesting, we'd have seen a lot of 3/4 drops that were very tough to justify as things were, but I think much of the same 1 land stuff would've been viable too. (Arguably even more viable, as it'd have been harder to justify hate against X/1s when playing higher mana cards didn't require so much consolation)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PJim

A 3.0 threshold concerns me with mana sources. If we'd had such a threshold for this tournament, we'd likely be very low on, if not completely without any FE/INV saclands, probably very color limited on storage lands, and otherwise largely stuck with single mana producing lands.

I still think a non-mana banathon might be a good way to go. I don't think having City of Traitors for the whole tournament would've made this less interesting, we'd have seen a lot of 3/4 drops that were very tough to justify as things were, but I think much of the same 1 land stuff would've been viable too. (Arguably even more viable, as it'd have been harder to justify hate against X/1s when playing higher mana cards didn't require so much consolation)

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The basics are exempt from bannings in this season, and we have tons of options from non-basics still. We should be okay.
In fact, for the current season I kind of regret not banning basics as well. I fondly remember getting my fav Thalakos Lowlands banned. Can't do that now...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

The basics are exempt from bannings in this season, and we have tons of options from non-basics still. We should be okay.
In fact, for the current season I kind of regret not banning basics as well. I fondly remember getting my fav Thalakos Lowlands banned. Can't do that now...

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Welder would have been gone for a while too if mountain had been banned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Looks like most here seem interested in a Vintage bannathon, with not too many bans upfront, and a 3.0 season point threshold for bannings.
Anyone strongly opposed to this idea?

Also, deadline has passed, and we're missing entries from FTW and Nasst. I'll give you guys some more time while I do work stuff.

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So sorry for the delay! Submitted without thinking it through to much. I *really* like the idea of a minimalist banlist with a 3.0 threshold, it seems like the purest form of a bannathon. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is effects for which there are too many redundant cards.

And we're complete, so let's go.

DECKS FOR ROUND 13 OF SEASON 11: Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, Mountain, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
3. dte: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Brazen borrower, Gilded drake
4. Reeplcheep: Devoted Druid, Vizier of Remedies, Thornglint Bridge, Lair of the Hydra
5. PJim: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Steel Hellkite
6. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Saltcrusted Steppe, Eldrazi Displacer, Containment Priest
7. alphastryk: Inkmoth Nexus, Dimir Aqueduct, Rishadan Cutpurse, Demon's Disciple
8. silkster: Den of the Bugbear, Molten Slagheap, Fanatical Firebrand, Shriekmaw
9. RoosterCocoa: Fountain of Cho, Saprazzan Cove, Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer, Riders of Gavony
10. maxx!: Scrubland, Mutavault, Giver of Runes, Brain Maggot
11. FTW: Ebon Stronghold, Quicksand, Brain Maggot, Master of the Feast
12. Nasst: Nezumi Shortfang, Mother of Runes, Mutavault, Concealed Courtyard

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

11. FTW: Ebon Stronghold, Quicksand, Brain Maggot, Master of the Feast

I played Master of the Feast over equivalent ground creatures expecting a lot of ground chump blockers (Mother, Firebrand loop, etc).

1. Asthereal (TO): To play around Brain Maggot on Firebrand, you must play T1 Mountain Firebrand (T3 Scavenger). So I just play T2 5/5 flying and race you. WW 6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Brain Maggot on Triplicate Titan stops you. OTD your T2 flyer is bigger. WL 3-3
3. dte: Both Petty Theft and Gilded Drake beat my flyer (can't exile both), and Hall means I can't just play chicken with Gilded Drake. LL 0-6
4. Reeplcheep: I almost submitted this too, but it seemed weak to Firebrand. Brain Maggot can always exile Druid or Vizier, then Master is faster. WW 6-0
5. PJim: Brain Maggot takes Hellkite. WW 6-0
6. Wrath of Pie: Brain Maggot takes Displacer then Master races. WW 6-0

7. alphastryk: OTP I play T2 Brain Maggot taking Disciple and T3 Master of the Feast. When you play Cutpurse, I can just sacrifice Quicksand.
OTD I play T2 Brain Maggot taking Cutpurse. If you play T3 Disciple, we both lose Disciple and Maggot and you get back Cutpurse. Then I play Master, you play Cutpurse (I sacrifice Quicksand), and Master wins.
If you don't play T3 Disciple, I still play T3 Master and Disciple/Inkmoth can't stop me. WW 6-0

8. silkster: Brain Maggot takes Shriekmaw, you kill it with Firebrand to get back Shriekmaw, then I play Master. Shriekmaw can't kill black and Quicksand can kill either X/2 so I race. WW 6-0
9. RoosterCocoa: Brain Maggot takes Gwafa, then Master of Feast flies over the 3/3. WW 6-0
10. maxx!: We both noticed Brain Maggot was still legal! OTP I can Maggot your Maggot, or just race with T2 Master. OTD you Brain Maggot my Master, then Giver protects your attacker from Quicksand. WL 3-3

12. Nasst: OTP Brain Maggot takes Nezumi, then Master flies over to win.
OTD you play T2 Nezumi, so I play T2 Master. You activate Nezumi to make me discard Brain Maggot & flip. From then on Stabwhiskers is a big clock, but Mutavault dies to Quicksand. Race is close.
Mother / tapped land
Nezumi / Master
discard / Master attacks [15/17]
Attack for 6, Mutavault dies / Attack for 5 [10/10]
Attack for 4 / Attack for 5 [5/3]
Attack for 4 [5/-1]
WL 3-3

51 points (17 wins, 5 loss)

My list: Nezumi Shortfang, Mother of Runes, Mutavault, Concealed Courtyard

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, Mountain, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger
6-0, mom guarantees that I get to flip shortfang. The clock's too fast.

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
I was hoping for the Noxious Gearhulk vertion, 0-6

3. dte: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Brazen borrower, Gilded drake
OTD you trade drake for mom, then, if you bounce drake on your t3, I get to discard it with shortfant. 6-0

4. Reeplcheep: Devoted Druid, Vizier of Remedies, Thornglint Bridge, Lair of the Hydra
Lair of the Hydra doesn't trample, 6-0

5. PJim: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Steel Hellkite
3-3

6. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Saltcrusted Steppe, Eldrazi Displacer, Containment Priest
I'm too fast! 6-0

7. alphastryk: Inkmoth Nexus, Dimir Aqueduct, Rishadan Cutpurse, Demon's Disciple
I can sacrifice mom and activate shortfang, 6-0

8. silkster: Den of the Bugbear, Molten Slagheap, Fanatical Firebrand, Shriekmaw
You can't play shriekmaw t2 to kill mom, so you have to firebrand her. Afterwards, shriekmaw can't answer shortfang because it's black. 6-0

9. RoosterCocoa: Fountain of Cho, Saprazzan Cove, Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer, Riders of Gavony
I'm just too fast, 6-0

10. maxx!: Scrubland, Mutavault, Giver of Runes, Brain Maggot
The mirror! OTD I lose because of giver's colorless protection. 3-3

11. FTW: Ebon Stronghold, Quicksand, Brain Maggot, Master of the Feast
3-3


51! While the deck seemed powerful enough, it's clear to me now that maxx!'s version is just superior. I actually considered that exact list, but felt that the dorks might not be powerful enough in certain spots, in hindsight, that's not true. Also worth noting: both our lists draw vs lackey OTD! I

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Goblin H8ers"

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, Mountain, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger
Goblin ping :( 0-6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
That's me on Goblins!

3. dte: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Brazen borrower, Gilded drake
Drake 3-3

4. Reeplcheep: Devoted Druid, Vizier of Remedies, Thornglint Bridge, Lair of the Hydra
Goblin smash! 6-0

5. PJim: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Steel Hellkite
Goblin smash! 6-0

6. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Saltcrusted Steppe, Eldrazi Displacer, Containment Priest
Goblin smash! 6-0

7. alphastryk: Inkmoth Nexus, Dimir Aqueduct, Rishadan Cutpurse, Demon's Disciple
Goblin smash! 6-0

8. silkster: Den of the Bugbear, Molten Slagheap, Fanatical Firebrand, Shriekmaw
Goblin ping :( 0-6

9. RoosterCocoa: Fountain of Cho, Saprazzan Cove, Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer, Riders of Gavony
Goblin smash! 6-0

10. maxx!: Scrubland, Mutavault, Giver of Runes, Brain Maggot
Maggot 3-3

11. FTW: Ebon Stronghold, Quicksand, Brain Maggot, Master of the Feast
Maggot 3-3

12. Nasst: Nezumi Shortfang, Mother of Runes, Mutavault, Concealed Courtyard
Goblin smash! 6-0

Total: 45 points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nasst

My list: Nezumi Shortfang, Mother of Runes, Mutavault, Concealed Courtyard

51! While the deck seemed powerful enough, it's clear to me now that maxx!'s version is just superior. I actually considered that exact list, but felt that the dorks might not be powerful enough in certain spots, in hindsight, that's not true. Also worth noting: both our lists draw vs lackey OTD! I

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Nice deck.

Quicksand was my tech to draw Lackey OTD too, but it didn't show up. Giver of Runes doesn't draw Lackey because Giver can't protect itself, so your Mother of Runes was the better choice for that.

I also didn't want to risk submitting a bunch of weenies (I've lost horribly in the past with 1/1 + Maggot + manland), so I shamelessly took your tech from last round with a bigger flyer and removal-land instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

Total: 45 points

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This race for 5th is surprisingly competitive!

1. Asthereal (TO): Havenwood Battleground, Mountain, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger
6-0. Stealers keepers.
6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
6-0. Stealers keepers. Or bouncers, depends of what you do. If you resolve on your turn T2 Titan, I steal it and I do not have a creature in my gy. If you wait for my EoT, I bounce it.
12

3. dte: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Brazen borrower, Gilded drake
Me. I first thought I had a fantastic idea of a deck, but upon submitting it (previsualizing my message to Asthereal), I realised I misstook "any target" and "target player or planeswalker"... :/
So I stole WoP's idea :)

4. Reeplcheep: Devoted Druid, Vizier of Remedies, Thornglint Bridge, Lair of the Hydra
6-0. Not doing much with this druid, but well...
18

5. PJim: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Steel Hellkite
6-0. Thanks for the dragon!
24

6. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Saltcrusted Steppe, Eldrazi Displacer, Containment Priest
6-0 I guess? That is a bit unfortunate, but the turn you play the displacer, you cannot flicker it, whatever the counters you have (you only get W or G). So I steal it if you ever play it.
30

7. alphastryk: Inkmoth Nexus, Dimir Aqueduct, Rishadan Cutpurse, Demon's Disciple
6-0, You cannot play disciple before cutpurse, cutpurse does not affect me, faerie and nexus can trade before the 11th poison, and I don't care much about disciple.
36

8. silkster: Den of the Bugbear, Molten Slagheap, Fanatical Firebrand, Shriekmaw
6-0. Not much that can do me much here. My manland is bigger, I can steal shriekmaw.
42

9. RoosterCocoa: Fountain of Cho, Saprazzan Cove, Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer, Riders of Gavony
6-0. Gwafa Hazid! I was trying to figure out how to use it, but had timing trouble to make it work, I only thought of bounceland & mothers. If you say drakon, you cannot pass my giant. If you say giant, I take riders, bounce drake and take Gwafa.
48

10. maxx!: Scrubland, Mutavault, Giver of Runes, Brain Maggot
0-6. The series was too good to be true (some of the above is also probably wrong I guess). My answers match yours poorly
48

11. FTW: Ebon Stronghold, Quicksand, Brain Maggot, Master of the Feast
6-0. Both my creatures are good here.
54

12. Nasst: Nezumi Shortfang, Mother of Runes, Mutavault, Concealed Courtyard
0-6. I lose to that.
54

Pretty good run, it especially started good until the last few ones on discard!
But I might have gotten some MUs wrong and be overenthusiastic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Nice deck.

Quicksand was my tech to draw Lackey OTD too, but it didn't show up. Giver of Runes doesn't draw Lackey because Giver can't protect itself, so your Mother of Runes was the better choice for that.

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giver also 4-1 lackey, because it is a 1/2 ;)
So your three decks did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
6-0. Stealers keepers. Or bouncers, depends of what you do. If you resolve on your turn T2 Titan, I steal it and I do not have a creature in my gy. If you wait for my EoT, I bounce it.
12

3. dte: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Brazen borrower, Gilded drake
Me. I first thought I had a fantastic idea of a deck, but upon submitting it (previsualizing my message to Asthereal), I realised I misstook "any target" and "target player or planeswalker"... :/
So I stole WoP's idea :)

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I think GoblinSmashmaster might be right here. He can just attack 20 times with Menace Insolent Neonate, leaving up Welder untapped to respond to tricks. The manland cannot block or race, so you have to act first. Tapping out at sorcery speed leaves you open to "Weld Titan in response, untap with Welder". Your only non-sorcery speed proactive play is to flash in Borrower, but then you lose Petty Theft and are weak to EOT Weld Titan & untap with Welder.

On your play you can T2 Gilded Drake taking Welder before it untaps, T3 bounce Drake. That line should win. On your draw Welder can activate in response.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

giver also 4-1 lackey, because it is a 1/2 ;)
So your three decks did.

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Giver can't protect itself from Sidisi's Faithful, then there is no white mana to replay it. Mother can protect itself (Lackey still goes unblocked), then holds off both X/1s.
Edit: Mother loses to Sidisi OTD in the Mangara decks with no T2 play.

If that was missed in previous rounds, then Goblinsmashmaster should have more points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

I think GoblinSmashmaster might be right here. He can just attack 20 times with Menace Insolent Neonate, leaving up Welder untapped to respond to tricks. The manland cannot block or race, so you have to act first. Tapping out at sorcery speed leaves you open to "Weld Titan in response, untap with Welder". Your only non-sorcery speed proactive play is to flash in Borrower, but then you lose Petty Theft and are weak to EOT Weld Titan & untap with Welder.

On your play you can T2 Gilded Drake taking Welder before it untaps, T3 bounce Drake. That line should win. On your draw Welder can activate in response.

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Once I have 3 counters, I can play drake targeting welder, If in response neonate is sacced and a titan appear, I bounce it?
From then a 3/1 flyer or a 7/7 walker should manage to win vs a 1/1 gob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Giver can't protect itself from Sidisi's Faithful, then there is no white mana to replay it.

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Sisdi cannot bounce both settler and giver:
T1 lackey / mut
T2 lackey attack, settler kill mut (otherwise next turn it is maggot takes sidisi) / giver
T3 sidisi can bounce giver, but then a W would be available to replay it.

As long as you have a relevant T2, mother or giver both do 4/1 vs lackey/settler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Sisdi cannot bounce both settler and giver:
T1 lackey / mut
T2 lackey attack, settler kill mut (otherwise next turn it is maggot takes sidisi) / giver
T3 sidisi can bounce giver, but then a W would be available to replay it.

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In that line 1/2 Giver of Runes trades with 2/1 Settler (Giver cannot protect itself) and then Lackey wins. Mother can hold off everything so it draws.

You're right about your matchup v Goblins though. I keep missing the storage land lines where you remove extra counters to represent 2 plays at once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

In that line 1/2 Giver of Runes trades with 2/1 Settler (Giver cannot protect itself) and then Lackey wins. Mother can hold off everything so it draws.

You're right about your matchup v Goblins though. I keep missing the storage land lines where you remove extra counters to represent 2 plays at once.

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Settler is a 1/1 ;)

So Lackey/ settler would not have performed decently but not too well this round (0-6 vs the fanatic decks and you, 1-4 vs the moms, 3-3 vs welder or me)