[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Hanni

quote hanni

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In Hanni's defense -

Umm. I don't know what everyone's problem is, but if you've actually goldfished WITH Ad Nauseum + Mystical Tutor, you'll find that it's actually really fcking good. Hanni here has done us a great service and I can't believe you guys are driving him out. Hanni also said that he was just throwing ideas out there. He never said: "HEY DUDE RUN THIS LIST IT'S THE BEST LAWL". He's trying to open new avenues for the deck to go in and all you do is come in here and bash him. This is what Hanni gets for posting speculation lists - slanderous, ignorant, captain-obvious comments. Way to go.

Please don't just come in here, look at someone's latest post, and assume that it's the most optimized recent build, or even the build that Hanni was advocating. In fact, Hanni has discussed at least 6 variants of the deck already, and constantly states that he believes BUw is indeed the correct color combination with the proper amount of protection and options. But he doesn't just stop there - he constantly tries to find the ultimate, most optimal build for Ad Nauseum.

Thanks for all of your work Hanni, and I really hope you'll reconsider coming back to help us develop the deck further. The amount of ignorant hate you're receiving is truly ridiculous.



On another note, the list that got 1st place the other day...I can see why he would want to run Merchant Scroll. It dodges Chalice @ 1 for an easier time to find your bounce spells. I think there should be consideration for the card in B/U and B/U/w lists.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Hanni has actually started testing the deck... TES thread, heeeeeerrrrreeeee's HANNI!

Seriously, how does this deck abuse AN anymore than TES? This deck is TES, except you are running slow stuff like Mystical Tutor in your "Speed" version. Can you tell me, Hanni, how is this better than TES?

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TES. Casts AdN.

Flip
Oops, Cruel Bargain. Drop 3 life.
Flip
Oops, Manamorphse. Drop 2 life.
Flip
Oops, SSG. Drop 3 life.

ANT doesn't have any of those. Neither are they really needed. ANT's curve's lower. How many cards do you draw with AdN in TES?

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

TES. Casts AdN.

Flip
Oops, Cruel Bargain. Drop 3 life.
Flip
Oops, Manamorphse. Drop 2 life.
Flip
Oops, SSG. Drop 3 life.

ANT doesn't have any of those. Neither are they really needed. ANT's curve's lower. How many cards do you draw with AdN in TES?

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In defense of TES -

TES with AdN dropped Cruel Bargain.
TES with AdN does not run Manamorphose.
TES with AdN only runs 2 SSG.

I draw on average 10+ cards with AdN in TES. How many do you draw? Oh wait you haven't playtested it and are making an ignorant post. Thanks for nothing.

EDIT -

Another thing I'd like to point out: the lower CC of ANT is relevant but not the deciding difference between TES and ANT. The main deciding difference is ANT's use of Mystical Tutor for consistency and options, and TES's use of Burning Wish and Rite of Flame for more ways to win/find answers.

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

In defense of TES -

TES with AdN dropped Cruel Bargain.
TES with AdN does not run Manamorphose.
TES with AdN only runs 2 SSG.

I draw on average 10+ cards with AdN in TES. How many do you draw? Oh wait you haven't playtested it and are making an ignorant post. Thanks for nothing.

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Oh. you mean those U/B list with 3x AdN that dropped red/burning wish/cruel bargain/diminishing return?

Sorry I'm not up to date with the latest ANT wannabe TES.

Oh, btw, ANT runs 0 SSG. Because they are not needed. Neither are rites of flame, or any additional mana other than the standard combination of petal/ritual/mox/LED.

Lastly, a dozen-ish card is more than plenty to win, but why don't you post a link to your TES list where you draw 10+ cards? I'm interested to see a TES list with an average mana cost of 1.5.

Or do you keep flipping when you have 5 life left? lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

In defense of TES -

TES with AdN dropped Cruel Bargain.
TES with AdN does not run Manamorphose.
TES with AdN only runs 2 SSG.

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Actually, TES had dropped Draw 4s even before Ad Nauseam.

Other than that, you're right on the spot. The first two statements you answered to were plain wrong. The third didn't apply.

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

Oh. you mean those U/B list with 3x AdN that dropped red/burning wish/cruel bargain/diminishing return?

Sorry I'm not up to date with the latest ANT wannabe TES.

Oh, btw, ANT runs 0 SSG. Because they are not needed. Neither are rites of flame, or any additional mana other than the standard combination of petal/ritual/mox/LED.

Lastly, a dozen-ish card is more than plenty to win, but why don't you post a link to your TES list where you draw 10+ cards? I'm interested to see a TES list with an average mana cost of 1.5.

Or do you keep flipping when you have 5 life left? lol.

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Now, aren't you a cute fanboy.

Seriously, I don't get such reactions. The card has been known for what, less than a month ? You can't expect any list to be optimal at this point. So stop treating ANT like your pet deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

Oh. you mean those U/B list with 3x AdN that dropped red/burning wish/cruel bargain/diminishing return?

Sorry I'm not up to date with the latest ANT wannabe TES.

Oh, btw, ANT runs 0 SSG. Because they are not needed. Neither are rites of flame, or any additional mana other than the standard combination of petal/ritual/mox/LED.

Lastly, a dozen-ish card is more than plenty to win, but why don't you post a link to your TES list where you draw 10+ cards? I'm interested to see a TES list with an average mana cost of 1.5.

Or do you keep flipping when you have 5 life left? lol.

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I'm using Hanni's most up-to-date list (I just was talking to him over AIM like 2 days ago) and Bryant Cook's latest TES list, so I don't know where you've been. If you want to find that, you can just go to the big ass TES thread over in the Established Deck Forums to find it. The average CC is indeed 1.55, and I still consistently draw over 10+ cards (that's being pessimistic, I draw 10-15 cards MUCH more than I draw under 10 cards).

And no, I don't flip with 5 life left unless I have fulfilled the criteria of: absolutely needing something that I don't have, will die next turn, and have calculated that the odds of flipping IGG, Tendrils, SSG, and another AdN low. Sometimes you have to take the risk; just make sure it's a calculated one.

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

Now, aren't you a cute fanboy.
Seriously, I don't get such reactions. The card has been known for what, less than a month ? You can't expect any list to be optimal at this point. So stop treating ANT like your pet deck.

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Ya. I'm cute unlike some not so cute fanboy who can't refute other than a random statement.

Oh and yes ANT IS my pet deck. What's your problem? ANT drops red for more MD protection. I like ANT > TES. Did I hurt your feeling/ego/epeen?

You should quote me on my fanboy-ish bash on TES. You can't find any? Here. I'll write it out here.

TES SUCKS AND ANT IZ BETTER.

Happy?

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

I'm using Hanni's most up-to-date list (I just was talking to him over AIM like 2 days ago) and Bryant Cook's latest TES list, so I don't know where you've been. If you want to find that, you can just go to the big ass TES thread over in the Established Deck Forums to find it. The average CC is indeed 1.55, and I still consistently draw over 10+ cards (that's being pessimistic, I draw 10-15 cards MUCH more than I draw under 10 cards).

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Ok. Fine. I missed Bryant's latest TES list in that -BIG ASS- TES thread with no update on the OP.

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The main deciding difference is ANT's use of Mystical Tutor for consistency and options, and TES's use of Burning Wish and Rite of Flame for more ways to win/find answers.

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That's got nothing to do with what i'm saying.

ANT use AdN better with a lower curve. You agree. I agree. What's the problem?

TES splash for red, it's curve is higher. Ok. I'm enlightened.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=282
RTFPost.

Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

Ok. Fine. I missed Bryant's latest TES list in that -BIG ASS- TES thread with no update on the OP.



That's got nothing to do with what i'm saying.

ANT use AdN better with a lower curve. You agree. I agree. What's the problem?

TES splash for red, it's curve is higher. Ok. I'm enlightened.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=282
RTFPost.

Seriously.

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Your childish and pretty much unconstructive remarks are exactly what I was referring to in my post about the excessive bashing on Hanni. People come in here with weak knowledge and weak arguments backed by zero playtesting and start fires instead of trying to improve an archetype. Your bashings on TES do nothing to improve ANT.

-ANT doesn't carry "more" maindeck protection, it just has a way to tutor for it with Mystical. In a slower way, TES has "more" maindeck answers via Burning Wish. The argument goes both ways.

-The remark about the TES thread is pretty ignorant as well. If you're going to argue decklist vs decklist, at least have some basis for it. You didn't even know what Cook's latest list was. The OP hasn't been updated in a long time, but if you keep up with the TES thread you can see the changes Cook constantly makes to improve his list. I'm not saying Cook is the end-all for TES, but he certainly has the knowledge, experience, and results to have me turn my head in his direction every time he throws a list out.

-Sure ANT's average CC is lower. Congratulations. Does that automatically make it better deck overall? No. Both lists have pros and cons, and the argument for running red is a strong one since it's is a very small price to pay for that much punch to add to the deck.

-I never EVER said ANT was a better or worse deck. EVER. I was defending TES because YOU made false claims about the list and basically discredited the whole thing based on the fact that the deck's average CC was higher. Your argument has been summed up as this: "ANT average CC is .9, TES average CC is 1.5, therefore TES is worse". Did you forget that TES doesn't even have to cast AdN to win BECAUSE it splashes red? Didn't think so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

-I never EVER said ANT was a better or worse deck. EVER. I was defending TES because YOU made false claims about the list and basically discredited the whole thing based on the fact that the deck's average CC was higher. Your argument has been summed up as this: "ANT average CC is .9, TES average CC is 1.5, therefore TES is worse". Did you forget that TES doesn't even have to cast AdN to win BECAUSE it splashes red? Didn't think so.

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Oh hi, why don't you quote me on "basically discredited the whole thing based on the fact that the deck's average CC was higher"?

I said TES has a higher curve thus drawing less cards with AdN than ANT would. YOU are the one who started firing at me about this TES/ANT bash thing.

"ANT average CC is .9, TES average CC is 1.5"
^That is what I wrote. Ok. No. I was under the impression TES has higher average CC than 1.5
"therefore TES is worse"
^That is the conclusion YOU drew. Then, tried to shove into my mouth.

That's why I said.
RTFPost

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

That's why I said.
RTFPost

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Well, you really can't refer to that post since TES doesn't run Cruel Bargain or Manamorphose, and only 2 SSG's. Your answer to Jak's question on why this deck is better than TES in using Ad Nauseam is a bit on the shaky side.

Chill or bad things will happen.

Ok, to those who've actually thrown together something and have been playtesting it, what do you find it it's largest weaknesses? Are you having problems with Countertop styles, Discard, or fast aggro (I should hope not on that one).

Just curious on what it needs to shore up the most.

I have gone off with balance on board at least 4 times. Balance is a issue only with top. However MMage, Teeg, ethersworn cannonist, Runed halo, and other similar cards are proving to be difficult to handle for me even with a MD rushing river because discard eats some but rushing river is really weak at removing these.

I have become a huge fan of slowing games 2/3 because you get 4 EE if you want and they

1) decrease the curve
2) they destroy any hate
3) they eat threats to buy time (see dreadnaught/geese)

EE has become my favorite side board for this deck because it works so well overall.

Slaughter pact is a 4 of board too, its just so good.

My only real difficulty is when the above or 3sphear is in play, chalice hurts but can be gone off while its in play (unless they have 1/2/0 but just 2 chalices isnt always enough)

Runed Halo is a joke. It can be dealt with after you cast AdN if you run any sort of bounce/removal.

Also, I'm testing Daze x4. Not sure why no one brings it up, but returning a land back to hand is nothing.

Teeg/MMage/Counter-Top is only relevant 25%ish of the time anyway. (On the Draw, comboing off turn 2+). CB can be hit by duress, Rushing River hits them all anyway.

The only real problem I see is first turn Chalice and/or 3sphere (with ANT on the draw) as they block Duress out too. Your bounce/removal will most likely be countered, unless you spend another turn to cast duress (if you can actually cast it). Against FS, you are most likely toast.

A my friend does first in swiss to a 90+ people tournament with the same UBw list I'm playing. But unfortunately he exit in top8 for an extirpate that shuffles AN taked with mystical.

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Originally Posted by jegger

A my friend does first in swiss to a 90+ people tournament with the same UBw list I'm playing. But unfortunately he exit in top8 for an extirpate that shuffles AN taked with mystical.

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That sucks :(

Could you show us your/his list? I sifted back a few pages and didn't see it, so I'm wondering if you updated it?

This is the list:

/ Lands
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Swamp
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MI] Island

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [PS] Rushing River
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away

Mine is very similar: -1 Pact +1 Ponder, -1 Sea +1 Island plus some minor changes in side. Another player arrived in 10° place with a very similar list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jegger

This is the list:

/ Lands
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Swamp
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MI] Island

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [PS] Rushing River
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away

Mine is very similar: -1 Pact +1 Ponder, -1 Sea +1 Island plus some minor changes in side. Another player arrived in 10° place with a very similar list.

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Are you sure running less than 4 Chrome Mox is optimal? Hitting the initial mana source post AdN is extremely important. Also, how good has Pact been in your testing?


Other things worth discussing:
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Merchant Scroll (YES, I know the consensus is that it's terrible, but it dodges Chalice @ 1 which is huge for this deck)

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

Other things worth discussing:
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Merchant Scroll (YES, I know the consensus is that it's terrible, but it dodges Chalice @ 1 which is huge for this deck)

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Assume I'm an idiot and explain to me what Scroll gets? I can see Bstorm (which kinda defeats the purpose), counters (which will be useless whenever you have to LED), and bounce (which doesn't strike me as very efficient but probably the strongest option).
It will pretty much always only search for disruption, which is great when you need some and a Chalice @ one is in play - but I don't like it whenever that's not the case.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just puzzled.

@Moxen:
Considering there's only a total of eight slots (or seven if you cut one) that produce mana post-AdN if you already dropped a land and don't have mana floating, I'd never go below four Moxen - especially since sometimes the only way to win will be producing double blue for Mystical/cantrip.
At least until a new Mox variant is printed or someone figures out how to make the deck support Diamonds without making it strictly worse in the process ...

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

Assume I'm an idiot and explain to me what Scroll gets? I can see Bstorm which kinda defeats the purpose, counters (which will be useless whenever you have to LED), and bounce (which doesn't strike me as very efficient but probably the strongest option).
It will pretty much always only search for disruption, which is great when you needs some and a Chalice @ one is in play - but I don't like it whenever that's not the case.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just puzzled.

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You are correct, the Merchant Scroll is exclusive for searching out bounce. You can't Mystical for your one-of Rushing River when Chalice is set @ 1. No it isn't efficient, but you can't really just sit there and wait for your 1-of to show up while your opponent keeps dropping lock cards and pit dragons. Where TES has Burning Wish to fetch out Shattering Spree, this deck has the correct idea in wanting to tutor for an answer to impeding artifacts, but the thing is the most annoying artifact stops that very tutor. Thinking about it though, Cunning Wish might be a better choice overall.

EDIT: I just took a piss and realized how inefficient Cunning Wish sounds. Merchant Scrolls sucks just as much, but I still have problems against Chalice @ 1. Anyone have better ideas?