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You must not have a problem with any wastelocks / pops or any other NB hate with not running any basics, how does that work out for you?
Ive been testing black for awhile now and it has been pretty good. Tombstalker is a beast. I took out swords and got terminate which while slower works out so much better. No extra life gain for them ftw. Also i was thinking about putting snuffout instead or in addition to for extra removal but it might be overkill
Finally your seeing the light. And to think, all I had to do was stfu and let you see for yourself. More ROAR! Chain Lightning FTMFW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
@umbowta: Yeah i guess you're right. I still don't like Chain though. I'd rather run like Incinerate or something instant speed though. Nice ROAR though :cool:
@B is for Big Job: Goyf Sligh is played in my meta on random occasions, along with mana denial plans, and my matchup with Goyf Sligh is already amazing and a Wasteland is ... well i Wasteland. It's all good for me. Please no discussion on the color black. RGW. Sorry to be a dick.
@Tacosnape: I just can't bring myself to run Magma Jet in the deck. Incinerate seems ok though. I'd maximize Pridemages though, they are just great. Also maybe just cut the 1of Cursed Scroll for another land. I would say a basic but your mana base looks all in so maybe another Fetch or Savannah.
Ok so now on to my tourney report.
Round 1 i play against GB Survival Natural Order(Pulp_Fiction)
He gets land screwed but Wall of Roots keeps me off damage long enough for him to get down double Kitchen Finks. All the while he is 3 for 1ing me with Cabal Therapy. Game 2 he gets triple Kitchen Finks. Take a guess at how i do.
Round 2 i get paired against MUC with Polymorph Progenitus.
I play Ape, Pridemage, and he taps out for Standstill??? I rape him as he was probably expecting with that kind of play error. Game 2 i just do what Zoo does. I Needle Shackles as well. He gets down Countertop but i play Helix and he can't find a 2drop after he fetches 3 times.
Round 3 i get paired against Standard Bant Aggro.
Kill myself. I rape him, but he does pull off turn one Noble Hierarch, turn two, Rhox War Monk, turn three Rafiq, gains a bunch of life, then i draw removal and win. Game 2 is just a slaughter because he runs Treetop Villages.
Round 4 i get paired up against Elf Glimpse Staff.
I figure i have to race him and kill his lords/Titanian Priests. I do just that game one and he has to chump with his mana guys to survive. Game two i get Jitte going.
Round five i get paired up against BW Confidant with Sculler, Volrath's Stronghold.
Game one we both go into top deck mode quickly. Thoctar ends this quickly. Game two he gets Sculler, Volrath's. So i have to Swords his Sculler, and draw Thoctar + Jitte. I would also like to note i bolted his ninjutsu-ed Throat Slitter and killed a Spectral Lynx with Jitte. Woot!
Top 8 i play against Eva Dead guy with top.
Game one i had a big fuck up. He Thoughtseized, picked STP, put it in the yard, and then wanted to take it back, me being the nice guy i am get him take it back and get my Goyf. Then he 4 for 1s with me with Goyf after he discarded my Swords. I was pissed but whatever. He gets 3 Goyfs, 2 Hippies, and 2 Tombstalkers each game. I have 3/3s and 2/3s. The reason why i bitch about SDT is because he pretty much had a fucking 4 card hand at all times with that card. It's dumb. Dumb CA artifact...
Good work on Top 8! After the first 3 rounds i was 2-1 and the damn Survival deck was just fucking with me. Mana problems all night and I just kept drawing useless shit (true to Survival's nature). All those cards are going on eBay tonight, not playing that shit again!
IMOP Magma Jet is terrible in the deck. It does to little damage for to much mana and the scry effect is not good enough to merit its inclusion. If your deck looks more like Goyf Sligh then play Magma Jet, but if you run more than 20 creatures ... don't play MJ.
Top is fucking annoying, I have wanted to play Null Rod in the main but its not worth it. Removing Scroll and Jitte are not options, those cards win to many games.
Still not sold on PtE over Swords and here is why: before damage Swords Lackey, then get mountain, drop Warchief pass turn. I play Watchwolf/Goyf or something. They drop Matron and at least 1 Piledriver .... this is scary, Goblins easily has the upper hand. PtE will make the Goblins matchup better for Goblins and that scares me. Also, I have won a few games based on StP on my own creature (usually Goyf) for a little extra life with the win on the board. That mana you give them can really work to your disadvantage whereas the life given to them VIA StP can be taken away very fast!
Also, Zoo is a DTB!!!! YEAH!!!!
Grats on DTB.
Check out this list also by SPOD --
1. Stefan Czolk ([SPOD] Sick Burn)
Main:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
Board:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Stephen Czolk won a small German tournament with this. What do you guys think?
Also...I guess this deck is technically more "Goyf Sligh". However, it seems like as time goes, the two archetypes are coming together slowly.
I don't see why Swords and path have to be exclusive. I've been running both, and have been very happy with that. However, I'm also running 3/3 for 6 total. Why? Well, with how many large creatures in the format (IE, goyf), I think that it's so important to have a lot of answers to them, especailly against decks like threshold who are going to want to counter your removal. There's already plenty of the burn in the deck, and I think that it makes perfect sense to replace the "more questionable" (i.e., the slots that it seems many people keep arguing about) burn slot with more straight removal. I don't see why we should have to run less efficient burn when we could have more efficient creature removal.
The Thread kind of changed name now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
About Stefan Czolk´s list, only the 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Qasali Pridemage make it be zoo. He even runs Chain Lightning and no Helix. The deck iss called Sick Burn, guess it doesen´t belong here.
As this is now just Zoo, I assume it includes 4 and 5-color lists as well.
I've really liked it in testing, as posted above, it's helpful in the builds using 3-of utility spells (Null Rod, Teeg, Lavamancer), as the Scry can be digging for something that can be back breaking vs certain strategies. There aren't that many creatures seeing play with an ass of 3, so things like Chain Lightning or Incinerate don't stand out to me as doing a whole lot more vs Creatures, clearly at the dome they are superior dmg:mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I think it probably depends on the meta, if one plays against alot of agro, I could see Jitte being better main, if there's alot of CB/T, Combo, or U w/ Vedaken Shackles I think Null Rod is superior main. Either way it probably makes sense to have 2-3 of each, one in the main the other in the SB, as they mostly shine in for 2 different match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
The Basic comes into play tapped so assuming T1: Land Lackey, T2: Land, Swing, Path, they have 2 untapped Land and 1 Tapped Mountain. They can't cast Warchief. I think Goblins is probably the match up PTE is worst against cause it's one of the matches where if they're hitting their land drops, they're getting closer to all their CA Goblins which is where the match up heads down hill. I'd side them out for Volcanic Fallouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I agree with "from Cairo's" take on PtE. The only match-up in which the downside really truly is game breaking is Gobbos, and maybe Merfolk. Most other decks pack few/no basics and decks like Threshold only need 3 lands to operate, they will cantrip into land if they need it and giving them a basic will rarely accelerate them into a bomb. Decks like Landstill probably benefit greatly from a free land drop but wtf are you going to Path against Control? Factory<Burn.
This list is totally sick...and it's very close to what I'm running at the moment. I would still consider this to be Zoo due to its' diversified, effcient creature base and burn package, however, this is a very burn heavy list. Just the way I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
One thing you should take notice of in this list is the 4x Mogg Fanatic while only 2x Kird Ape make the list. This can be justified in two ways: by the Fanatics' ability to remove Bridge from Below, and the fact that Fanatic gives you yet another way to win Goyf ground stalls. I say win when the fact is, if your opponent chooses to block, you'll have the chace to trade one for one; your Fanatic for their Goyf sounds pretty good to me.
The burn package is tight but I still don't like Magma Jet when the top of the deck is so efficient anyway. The only time I like jet is when I'm using it specifically to find answers via the scry mechanic. Most of the time however 2 damage for 2 mana makes me want to cry inside. I prefer Helix here, especially alongside PoP...and don't make me start the Lava Dart debate.
The only glaring fault I see is the exclusion of a singleton Savannah. With an opening grip of Nacatl, Mountain, Fetchland when you really want to lead with cat and maximize it's P/T the Savannah would be golden.
Some comments about my list:
I don't know whether you'd call this deck Goyf Sligh, Zoo, or whatever and frankly I couldn't care less =)
This list is heavily influenced by card pool restraint. I played the deck the next day at the local Hassloch tourney (47 players) and finished third. Here's what I played (after I borrowed the cards I wanted to play):
[SPOD] Quick 'n Toast 'n Cookies
Main:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
Board:
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sulfurous Vortex
This list is much better, but there are still some points I'd like to discuss:
How many lands to play? The manabase worked out fine for me, but I'm still not entirely sure if 19 is correct. A Savannah is probably missing in there.
The Kird Apes were pretty underwhelming compared to the powerlevel of Lavamancer and Nacatl, perhaps Figure of Destiny is better in that slot.
The Magma Jets. Perhaps I just sticked with them to keep a little library manipulation in the deck (numerous months of playing Grow tend to make you valuate library manipulation quite high). Helix might be better.
The Pillars in the SB just plain and simple suck! Any ideas of what could be a good replacement?
And just to mention the obvious: Pridemage and PoP are insanely powerful.
Just to go with the obvious: this is totally meta-dependant.Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
I'd say for meta that is not really combo infested and ~35 players: screw those comboMUs. Even if you packed 4 Gaddock Teegs, you're not likely to find those consistently (no Ponders, BSs, Tops :laugh: ).
You could always go with REBs (hey they help against combo, too:tongue: )
Yeah, I abandonned the combo MU right away. You can't board in enough stuff to make that MU good, so you might as well screw it! The only game I lost that weekend was to combo (Cascade-Hypergenesis, if you believe it...) but that's ok. That's the trade off you make for not playing CounterTop =)
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, these two slots just might have been Homarid Warriors, in that they are just filler cards. Maybe I'll try Anarchy or something janky the next time =)
I have been running helix over jet, stubbornly, and I love what it does in the mirror. However, if you are to do that, I would go up to 20 or 21 land. (I play 21, but 3 wastes.) When you splash white and rock helix, and they splash black and dark confidant it's awsome. Their PoP are blanks, and yours are bombs. Makes up for the lack of CA.Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
I really like pridemage, and have yet to playtest it. I think I will have to lose the wastes if I do that however, as you seem to have adopted.
Edit: just saw the vortexes in your side, I do that as well. Its a 2/2 shroud haste unblockable sigma lasher for 1 more R most of the time. Aka, Badass.
I wake up and check the Source to see Zoo moved to the DTB section. Ahh the spoils of hard labor!
Yeah i was just wondering if this includes all 5 colors as well? Because i mean i think that RGW is clearly the best of all the color combinations. I see no need for black or blue at all, but hey i guess it's not my call.
Anywho, PTE against Goblins just doesn't worry me at all. You have such a good matchup anyway, and if you run Pyroclasm in the board or anything, then you can just overkill the little green men.
Combo is even more winnable with Pridemage, not much, but moreso. I've beaten a combo deck with just Lightning Helix. You can never assume they have the nuts hand, and the builds with Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, etc. they either have it or they have to find it, in which case you gotta play smart.
This may be too slow, but what about flame jab as a 1 of. I wouln't play more then 1 as they are so bad in multiples.
Good:
Turns lands in your hand into lavamancer damage
Turns lands past 2-3 into 1 point of damage.
Kills Bobs all day as well as random other 1
You can force a CB player to put 1cc spell on top of their library due to threat of lands in hand, and then throw 2cc stuff at them.
Bad:
A spell that just hits in the face may be better or worth more damage.
spirit of the wretch ,
I see you've taken out the Mogg Fanatics. There are simply no Ichorid's in there, or you don't care about the MU?
@The Wolf: Flame Jab seems not consistent as a 1of, and even as a 4of it would still be as terrible.
With Null Rod, Teeg and Canonists you can have a ton of speed bumps for them. I don't think it's unwinnable, T1 Nacatl/Ape, T2 hate piece, T3-4 2nd hate piece, and they're probably out of the game. Depending on their hand Null Rod can be a complete blow out, and Canonist always ties up a turn+ to eliminate; Teeg is the weakest hate piece against combo but it still shuts off Tendrils, Ad Nauseam (in addition to FoW, Humility, Elspeth, etc). Considering PTEs/STPs are completely dead in the match up anyway, it makes sense to have 3-4 SB options against Combo, even if its just something like Teeg that's generically helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
My current SB is:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
2/3 Umezawa's Jitte
2/3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip