[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

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Originally Posted by DarthVicious

I can see where you're coming from, and that's the reason I don't run protection in my build, apart from a few key SB pieces of antihate. I'd rather force them to react to me, putting them on the defensive and forcing them to come up with answers. They usually can't find enough.

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The biggest mistakes I've made with this deck is not playing it agressively enough. I've lost several times trying to play around mindbreak trap or stifle, and I've learned it's just not worth it. Force them to mull for force of will, then force them to 2-1 themselves, giving you hopefully enough time to rebuild.

Also, I plan on testing reprocess, and I'm cutting it down to 1 Ill-gotten gains, 2 isn't necessary I've realized. And I don't like the mono black version, sure most of the time we generate more than enough storm, but many games I've won by the seat of my pants, barely getting that last required storm. Plus charbelcher is fantastic as a 1 of, so for me the risks outweigh the liabilities.

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Originally Posted by DarthVicious

I'll concede that drawing lotus bloom sucks when the opponent has you clocked, but I can't find anything better. If another ritual came out I'd run that instead. I'd put the blooms in the board then.

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Tallmen makes a clocked SI player with Lotus Bloom particularly dangerous. Given that you are playing Tallmen, Bloom are viable in your list, though I disagree much with 4 MD Tendrils. When you have access to so much red mana, there isn't much reason to opt out of BW, especially when you potentially have a Black Lotus on turn 4.

Also, a trick that an old Eggs storm deck used to play:
Reshape, sacrifice an artifact --> Lotus Bloom
When you play it in this way, Bloom comes directly into play.

Basically UU for XXX. Pretty sweet if you ask me. We could sacrifice spare Mox Opal, Tallmen, etc to make this play in QSI. Thats really the only place I can see Reshape being played, if its even good. I'm just brainstorming since we are on the topic of Lotus Bloom.

@ Marit
Throw me your SB so I can make a decent assessment of how to fill up those 2 slots in your MD.


@ Final Fortune
SI players play whatever build suits their play style. When it comes down to it, SI's niche is speed, and consistency at speed.

SI would like a resilient manabase, surely, avoiding Wasteland and such, but you forget, the deck doesn't need much to go off again. If your opponent Wastes your only land, whose to say you can't go off again in a few turns? I agree that having swamps allows you to sit back behind the tallmen and accumulate some cards, but this isn't always the case. Often your opponent will just use what are usually blank removal spells to take out your creatures, leaving you creatureless when you need one for Culling the Weak, and exposing you to the opponent's clock. Also, keep in mind that Goyf is usually huge against us. You can't sit behind that creature wall when you are facing down a Goyf that is far bigger than all your dudes. Thats partly why I switched to PSI. PSI bypasses that situation entirely, opting instead for increased Speed, Daze protection, Pact + LED tricks, etc. Also the deck is literally more compact because now the tallmen also function as mana sources.

If you post some results with this list, then we will have something to discuss.

@The Spanish Tunnel King
Good Tunneling!
It looks like Tallmen would have been better than Kobolds, given that you have to block Lackey and then lose the Kobold. If you had Tallmen, you slow Goblins clock until they have a removal spell for a Tallman.
The games that you fizzed (seems like quite a few) might have been remedied by the PSI list with lines of play like Pact + LED into biz.
That CB matchup looks tough. Given that its your hardest matchup and you could actually start the D4 chain in every game, I'd say thats pretty dam good.
Against Rock, I wouldn't count on mini-ToA + Bob being a kill. You should wait until the opponent plays Bob to go off. Once he has it online he will surely over power you with discard and then you can't go for the kill.

@entity
Cruel Bargains are definitely hard to find. Good luck. :P


@all
On the topic of Reprocess, it will only work well in builds with Tallmen because then you have more things to sacrifice.

On the topic of Mox Opal, is it that much better than SSG or ESG? Both Spirit Guides can be played as Daze protection and as mana sources to facilitate your post-board plans of EtW or Carpet/Swarm.

Just had to say this: I love the attention that the deck's getting.

It would take a long time before I can sleeve this deck up in real life, but I would say that it's really worth it.

I've tested the lists with Mox Opal, and I've been very unimpressed, especially compared to Pact SI. As of the moment, I don't see the merits of SI with tallmen over Pact SI.

My next wish (after Wizard and Zombie Spirit Guides): I hope they print a green creature that functions as a "bomb" in this deck, e.g. a green Slithermuse. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

. As of the moment, I don't see the merits of SI with tallmen over Pact SI.

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Pact SI has inherent demerits, Land Grant gives your opponent an informational advantage and gives you an extreme vulnerability to disruption in exchange for turning Artifact Creatures into Elvish Spirit Guides. Yes, you become more resistant to Daze, but you turn disruption (ala Spellsnare or Thoughtseize) into Strip Mines and you lose your first land drop in exchange for Dryad Arbor and your second land drop (2xBayou) for Goblin Charbelcher as an alternate win condition.

@Vacrix,

I agree Shield Sphere and Phyrexian Walker aren't answers to Tarmogoyf, but they are tempo generators vs. Merfolk and Swamps are both A) prevent the first Swamp from being Wastelanded and B) increase the likelyhood you'll have 2, if not 3 lands in play. Obviously, no one's to say the Swamp guarantees victory, but not being disrupted is obviously better than being disrupted and increases our probability of winning.

They're obvious advantages to Kobolds and imprinting Red mana, however they're advantages to Shield Sphere 3xTime Walking Tarmogoyf as well. I'll concede Phyrexian Walker is awful vs. non-Goblin decks, Memnite may be far superior for it's ability to attack and reduce the Storm count by 1 via. Force of Will or Fetchlands.

I disagree 4xTendrils of Agony are "sub-optimal" tho', if you consider the mana floating after Draw 4 chains B into Culling the Weak for BBBB into a Tendrils of Agony is good game where Burning Wish is game over. The multi-color versions are, at times, inconsistent by nature.

@Thread

Mox Opal is garbage FWIW, even with Vault of Secrets.

I test against two blue decks on a regular basis: Aeon Bridge w/Force, Daze, and discard, and Bant NO Pro CounterTop. My opponent in those games has played hundreds of games against my deck, and he's still afraid of it. I believe in my list 100%, and I'm the only one that has to. The only way I would change the main is if another black ritual is printed in scars block.

I am on the same side as marit when it comes to the opals, they're freakishly nasty. Spirit guides can't pay for rituals on their own. Neither can Opal, but there's a hell of a lot more artifacts in this deck than there are mana fixing, even in a pact list. To each his own I guess.

Although, a green slithermuse would be ridiculous...

New list:

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4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp-> protection from wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Chrome mox

4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark ritual
4 Culling the weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Wild Cantor
1 Eternal Witness

4 Pact
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Duress
2 Sensei's diving top -> LED trix, pact trix, must counter
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils
1 IGG

SB
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Drop of honey -> against goblins etc... and hatebears, can kill Iona
3 Nature's Claim
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Disfigure-> for canonist and other hatebears, better than Deathmark

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Zoo
- 4 Duress
- 1 Cantor
+ 1 Folk
+ 3 DoH
+ 1 Disfigure
Stax
- IGG
- 3 Duress
+ Folk
+ 3 Claim
U-deck
- 1 Duress
- Cantor
- IGG
+3 Xantid Swarm

Less than 4 Chrome Mox is wrong. There will be no discussion on this.

I don't get why everyone is hating on Mox Opal. Yes, it's not so great in the pact builds, but in the tall-men builds it's incredible. It's a permanent, non waste-able mana source that taps for B, U, and R. What's not to like?

And @ PSI v LGSI, I don't think this debate will ever be resolved. I have tested both extensively, and I like LGSI with Mox opals better, it runs smoother for me and feels significantly less clunky. Other people have reached the exact opposite conclusion I have, it's just personal preference.

Edit: Does anyone have the most recent PSI version? I might have the wrong version, because mine runs only 13 initial black mana sources, which is one less than the old old LGSI ran, which makes sense why it's been so inconsistent. But it seems to me like all the PSI lists sacrifice initial black mana sources for summoner's pact, which does not fetch black.

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Originally Posted by emidln

less than 4 chrome mox is wrong. There will be no discussion on this.

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lol

Wait, did I see a sideboard plan of Drop of Honey vs Goblins? I stopped reading the first time after Chrome Mox, but wtf are you smoking? If you think siding in Drop of Honey vs Goblins is a good idea you need to stop and reconsider what this deck does.

Drop of Honey? Vs. Gobbos? I'm sorry but that is just wrong. Why do we need help in that MU again? The MOST you need is duress for mindbreak trap. That is the limit. And less than 4 chrome mox is so wrong on multiple levels it isn't even funny emidln is right you will run 4 chrome moxen. No questions asked. Cut a bloody sensei's top for another chrome mox. And sensei's top in SI? What is wrong with this picture? We try to win ASAP not after we top a couple of turns to sculpt a hand for that we have TES and DDFT. Even TES doesn't play top though because apparently it's dissynergystic with gemstone mine. And LED tricks with top are only useful in doomsday piles IMO or if a TES player ponders, see's an AdN, then brainstorms cracking the LED in response to pay for the AN. This doesn't happen that often though.

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Originally Posted by marit

And @ PSI v LGSI, I don't think this debate will ever be resolved. I have tested both extensively, and I like LGSI with Mox opals better, it runs smoother for me and feels significantly less clunky. Other people have reached the exact opposite conclusion I have, it's just personal preference.

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Well, for discussion's sake, I prefer Pact SI because no other version (I think) pushes the Turn 1 win ballot as hard as this. Also, the deck has a very good SB plan against blue, almost like it's tailor-made to beat blue decks post-SB.

I don't like other SI versions because I want to go all-in consistently eary - Turns 1-2. I get frustrated when I push other versions that early only to fizzle.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@The Spanish Tunnel King
Good Tunneling!
It looks like Tallmen would have been better than Kobolds, given that you have to block Lackey and then lose the Kobold. If you had Tallmen, you slow Goblins clock until they have a removal spell for a Tallman.
The games that you fizzed (seems like quite a few) might have been remedied by the PSI list with lines of play like Pact + LED into biz.
That CB matchup looks tough. Given that its your hardest matchup and you could actually start the D4 chain in every game, I'd say thats pretty dam good.
Against Rock, I wouldn't count on mini-ToA + Bob being a kill. You should wait until the opponent plays Bob to go off. Once he has it online he will surely over power you with discard and then you can't go for the kill.

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Akkk. I wrote a really big reply to this but lost it somewhere/somehow in the ether. Here is the really short version because i'm tired, with some more questions :) -

Thanks everyone!

Kobalds on the day killed me once (plague shut me down), imprinted for win once. I don't know.....

Semi-fizzle= draw4 turn 1 need to untap/topdeck something to continue. Is this bad? I did it quite a lot on the day, and the deck kept feeding me the goods :). Or should I wait for more resources or mulligan harder?

vs CB. I sided in just swarms on the play and kept the maindeck on the draw, trying just to get underneath the CB, not worrying about force too much. Is this a good plan, trying to maintain the speed? Or is the 'full blue board' still good against CB? Once that thing lands, its pretty hairy...

Random thing (and this one is really important to me) - I miscounted my mana in one game (SORRY JIM!!!!) so I thought I had won and he scooped when I explained it after a LG so he could see my hand. Nooby question, but whats the best way of keeping track of mana/storm people have found? Over the course of a tourney it can get tiring just counting to 10 for tendrils, let alone piloting the deck ;). I used dice for mana and beads for storm, but got this pretty simple thing confused (only once, I hope....) even. Or is it just a matter of practice, practice practice? Slighty off topic I know, but handy if anyone has got any hints :).

Thats it for tonight folks.

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Well, for discussion's sake, I prefer Pact SI because no other version (I think) pushes the Turn 1 win ballot as hard as this. Also, the deck has a very good SB plan against blue, almost like it's tailor-made to beat blue decks post-SB.

I don't like other SI versions because I want to go all-in consistently eary - Turns 1-2. I get frustrated when I push other versions that early only to fizzle.

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I generally don't have a problem pushing the envelope with my list of LGSI, I have a 50-60% turn 1 kill rate with my list, turn 2 it's probably about 70+%. Anyone who says they can reach 70% turn 1 with a pact list is either really lucky, has some crazy tech I'm not aware of, or mistaken. with 13 initial Black mana sources, you are forced to mulligan a lot. This alone in my testing of PSI makes me not want to take it to a tournament. And the deck is more resiliant to daze, but more vulnerable to FoW. Often times pact is used to search either an ESG for G, or a creature for culling, then then you are playing a bargain off of it. If the bargain eats a FoW (some people have told me that the Draw4 never gets FoW'd, but that is just silly, anything that says +3 card advantage is not going to resolve if they can help it), then you are dead in the water. Losing Empty also hurts, it helps the blue matchup a lot. I don't feel it having the extra speed that everyone claims it does, pretty much every SI variant I've tested (save QSI and SITES) is the same speed, with a little variation that's barely noticeable.

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Semi-fizzle= draw4 turn 1 need to untap/topdeck something to continue. Is this bad? I did it quite a lot on the day, and the deck kept feeding me the goods :). Or should I wait for more resources or mulligan harder?

vs CB. I sided in just swarms on the play and kept the maindeck on the draw, trying just to get underneath the CB, not worrying about force too much. Is this a good plan, trying to maintain the speed? Or is the 'full blue board' still good against CB? Once that thing lands, its pretty hairy...

Random thing (and this one is really important to me) - I miscounted my mana in one game (SORRY JIM!!!!) so I thought I had won and he scooped when I explained it after a LG so he could see my hand. Nooby question, but whats the best way of keeping track of mana/storm people have found? Over the course of a tourney it can get tiring just counting to 10 for tendrils, let alone piloting the deck ;). I used dice for mana and beads for storm, but got this pretty simple thing confused (only once, I hope....) even. Or is it just a matter of practice, practice practice? Slighty off topic I know, but handy if anyone has got any hints :).

Thats it for tonight folks.

The Spanish Tunnel King

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When you talked about semi-fizzling, did you mean you kept a hand of 7 that couldn't do anything turn 1, or you kept a hand that could draw4 turn 1, then drew into not enough to win? Because if it's the former, depending on what I'm facing I would mulligan unless it's got a lot of tallmen and I know I'm facing Zoo, or a slower deck without disruption (aggro loam, lands). And I prefer the 15 card SB plan for counterbalance, it's still not favorable by any means, but tomb of urami and tombstalker get right around balance, and chances are they sided out their removal. For storm and mana, I just write it down on a sheet of paper. This also helps if you want to right a tournament report later, or just recall the little details. Congrats on the finish! And I hope this helped some.

I usually just say the storm count and mana I have floating after each spell I cast. Later on when it gets tougher to keep track I start writing it all down. Goldfishing helps.

I use dice to keep track of storm; mana I find to be easy to keep track of in my head. And PSI does push the envelope very well with its turn 1 win% IMHO. Nothing really compares to the turn 1 kill rate of PSI. I was very fine when I took PSI to a tournament a while ago facing all the blue decks in the room and going 3-1. I only fizzled once and that was turn 1 game 1 against a random homebrew because I used summoner's pact and fizzled and you get the picture. The only other time I lost was against a blue deck round 4 which packed pyrostatic pillar out of the board <-- the best tech against SI, I resolved a draw 4 and couldn't get enough mana to play and activate belcher and even if I could have played belcher he had the stifle for it...oh well.

Turn 2 kill rates with this deck are so high it's not even funny. If I'm on the draw and I try to combo off turn 2 I rarely fizzle unless I kept a risky hand that I should not have kept. Getting just 2 draw phases to draw more cards is insane with this deck lol.

As for people not countering D4's. I've had people counter my D4's because it is CA and it will likely overwhelm the opponent if we resolve a D4 assuming the D4 doesn't turn up crap. D4's are our ad nauseam's essentially so it's right to counter them most of the time depending on the hand. But that's just the point; what the optimal choice is against us always depends on our hand sometimes it's the IMS sometimes the dark rit or sometimes the D4.

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Originally Posted by marit

When you talked about semi-fizzling, did you mean you kept a hand of 7 that couldn't do anything turn 1, or you kept a hand that could draw4 turn 1, then drew into not enough to win? Because if it's the former, depending on what I'm facing I would mulligan unless it's got a lot of tallmen and I know I'm facing Zoo, or a slower deck without disruption (aggro loam, lands). And I prefer the 15 card SB plan for counterbalance, it's still not favorable by any means, but tomb of urami and tombstalker get right around balance, and chances are they sided out their removal. For storm and mana, I just write it down on a sheet of paper. This also helps if you want to right a tournament report later, or just recall the little details. Congrats on the finish! And I hope this helped some.

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Yeah, I would count a 'semi-fizzle' as...... Say you mull to 6 and keep a hand of..... Land grant, dark ritual, draw4, tallman (or shortman - kobald FTW! :)), bayou, chrome mox. And your playing against aggro game 1. So.... you go T1 bayou, ritual, draw4. Then you get something random like draw4 x2, kobald, infernal tutor. Now you hand looks like: Land grant, draw4 x2, kobaldx2, infernal tutor, chrome mox. There are now so many 'outs' that you can draw to start up again. practically anything but kobalds.... So you missed turn 1, but I wouldn't say you've 'fizzled'. Your deck is still pretty 'live'. Maybe against aggro its better to wait because you can soak up some damage before going off, but esp if you're against CB, I think its worth a 'probe'. Sooooo many counterspells come on-line when they drop a land, so try and bury them in card advantage before it gets too late? And you might always just flop into something ridiculous...

And to be honest, I forgot about the tomb... I always thought it kind of under performed, but maybe its worth looking at again. Maybe I just didn't board it in against the right decks. Against CB and fish right? But fish may well bring in echoing truth fearing the warrens (even if you don't run them. They're pretty popular in storm decks these days.... ;)) which would hit him pretty hard. Plus stifle... If I went back to tombs on the board, and maybe just 2 EtW (or maybe even find some space for reverent silence - people really are playing the leyline over here, good or not :)).

Thanks for the feedback as ever!

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Yeah, I would count a 'semi-fizzle' as...... Say you mull to 6 and keep a hand of..... Land grant, dark ritual, draw4, tallman (or shortman - kobald FTW! :)), bayou, chrome mox. And your playing against aggro game 1. So.... you go T1 bayou, ritual, draw4. Then you get something random like draw4 x2, kobald, infernal tutor. Now you hand looks like: Land grant, draw4 x2, kobaldx2, infernal tutor, chrome mox. There are now so many 'outs' that you can draw to start up again. practically anything but kobalds.... So you missed turn 1, but I wouldn't say you've 'fizzled'. Your deck is still pretty 'live'. Maybe against aggro its better to wait because you can soak up some damage before going off, but esp if you're against CB, I think its worth a 'probe'. Sooooo many counterspells come on-line when they drop a land, so try and bury them in card advantage before it gets too late? And you might always just flop into something ridiculous...

And to be honest, I forgot about the tomb... I always thought it kind of under performed, but maybe its worth looking at again. Maybe I just didn't board it in against the right decks. Against CB and fish right? But fish may well bring in echoing truth fearing the warrens (even if you don't run them. They're pretty popular in storm decks these days.... ;)) which would hit him pretty hard. Plus stifle... If I went back to tombs on the board, and maybe just 2 EtW (or maybe even find some space for reverent silence - people really are playing the leyline over here, good or not :)).

Thanks for the feedback as ever!

The Spanish Tunnel King

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I never wait to cast a draw 4, unless it's some super special circumstance. I don't think it's worth waiting and absorbing damage, because that just limits your next draw4's, and gives them mana to burn you out/time to draw counters.

Over the past few days I've been doing extensive goldfishing with the pact list (and by extensive I mean I've goldfished somewhere around 400 games). What I've noticed is that because of summoner's pact, a well timed force spells gg, not even giving time to recover. But on the flip side, it is noticeably faster thanthe mox version I was playing before. I have no problem pushing the deck to win when I need to, as in cracking LED in response to a draw4, or another business spell. I find though, that I'm using belcher to win a lot more than I did with the mox version, which could be good or bad depending how you look at it. Next tourney I go to I'm gonna play the pact version instead, and see how it feels/works.

So they announced the new banned and unbanned for legacy on December 20th 2010. Time spiral is unbanned. What will that mean for the SI deck?

Nothing at first. It's useless for SI itself and far too clunky as the centrepiece of anything that attempts to rival SI's speed. True bombs in combo are slow.
If anything, the banning of Survival is going to be more influential since that'll have a more immediate effect on what decks will be played.