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For what it's worth, Survival took 5 of the top 8 spots in today's SCG Open again, including UG beating GW in the finals. No, I don't think it's too good. Yes, the format needs to adapt and people need to play things like Spell Snare or Needle. Yes, I'm definitely worried that the DCI might take action in December. Everyone else playing in Boston this coming weekend, do your part to beat Survival decks. You can't win if you can't beat Survival.
Also worth noting that it went up from 5 (Minneapolis, Baltimore and Nashville) to 7 (Charlotte) decks in Top 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by VsTheWorld
From what I've seen in the GGsLive coverage, people already played Needles, Spell Snares, various grave hate and especially a lot of Extirpates. Apparently it wasn't enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by VsTheWorld
Some pretty weird (but successful) builds. More power to those guys for thinking outside the box.
Also, glad to see Brittle Effigy put to good use.
I was wondering when Fauna Shaman would catch on in VV lists.
This card alone scares all my opponents into killing it asap. That's a positive sign of how powerful the card is; even tho it's not Survival.
Is it true Nick S. is changing his name to Trinket Mage? That was a nice package though, especially into LED.
Well, I officially reverse my stance. Vengevine's getting banned. Short of the Flash debacle, which I pretend never happened, Vengevine's got such a huge grasp on this format it's stupid.
Survival itself was never a problem before Vengevine. And with the Ooze combo and Fauna Shaman and Loyal Retainers/Iona shenanigans, I'd be very sad if they banned the enchantment, given that it's the wrong choice. All of the above would be playable but not unstoppable without Vengevine involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
WoTC won't ban the creature in this scenario. The enchantment is far more abusable than some 4/3 hasty dude that comes back.
Tacosnape
What specifically made you change your opinion of Vengevines? Much like you previous approach, it has to be explained.
They discussed Vengevine at one point in the coverage yesterday and I was glad to hear that (almost unanimously) Phillps, Sullivan and friends believe that Survival is fair and that free things tend to be broken. Vengevine is free. Casting it is a backup plan. Of course, then they discuss how Gush is probably fine for legacy...
Unfortunately, Vengevine is pretty harmless in legacy without Survival crapping them out.
Sure the meta can and will adapt. Just let Zoo, Merfolk and Counterbalance die down for a while. This is the "Survival era" folks where the weakest decks don't belong and if you can't survive in the meta just quit. Yes people are boarding Needles and Extirpates, but still only a few are playing Storm to beat it. Also, I dunno why in some BG lists only a singleton Pernicious Deed is played, it can take down Survival too ya know. Perish and Damnation would also be really good in their Jank decks.
Rock>Scissors>Paper? How about Storm>Survival>Counterbalance. Seems like a balanced meta to me.
Peace.
Vengevine Survival is approaching the threshold, but I don't think it's quite at the banning point. It's meta presence is comparable to Merfolk if you look at the past three months(excluding the rush-end-of-the-month that was Charlotte).
But seeing how WotC mishandled Mystical Tutor, it's likely SotF will get the hammer in December. If they axed two decks that barely had the same presence as Zoo at the time, I think they'll definitely hit SotF.
What makes me a bit scared is that everybody knew Survival was gonna be hot and all the hate/metagaming proved useless.
But what if people play storm? Storm beats Survival and Survival beats everything else? LOL
What I am worried about is not a lot are really proficient at playing Storm and that might skew the outcome because Storm was misrepresented.
I dunno. I first started playing BG Vengevine Survival, and won my first two matches after turn 2 wins on game one without a Survival (Turn one Putrid Imp, Double Vengevine, Basking Rootwalla, swing for 8, next turn pump, swing for 12.) Granted, this won't happen all that often, but there you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
On the whole, I don't think either Vengevine or Survival are anywhere close to broken without the other. My gut feeling is that they'll keep the card that allows hundreds of mid-tier Legacy decks to exist, rather than the one that pretty much won't see play. Banning either one solves the problem. Banning Vengevine leaves tons of creativity for other Survival decks. Banning Survival will relegate Vengevine to Standard.
Why cant Merfolk beat U/G Madness? Isn't Merfolk supposed to have a good matchup against that deck?
That said, I was going to buy a couple of Survival of the Fittest but now im thinking twice because I don't want to buy something that will get banned next month.
And no, I am not making a Madness deck, rather I wanna make a Combo-Elves (courtesy of ruckus's MTGO list)
Seeing the stereotypical hate cards "in action" at the 5k has cemented my opinion that some part of the survival/vengevine combo has to go.
For the record I saw spell snare, extirpate, pithing needle, thoughtseize, seal of primordium, pernicious deed, and krosan grip, all of which did nothing or were just a speed bump against the survival player. The deck is just too threat diverse, especially with the "new tech" of fauna shamen + quirion ranger being about as powerful as an actual survival. The g/w builds are also extremely resilient to grave hate. Even if you get rid of all the vines, they just turn every creature they draw into a kotor or a goyf.
This!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabal_chan
At the last tournament I played 50% of Top 8 was Merfolk. Why don't we just ban Island and stop complaining? </sarcasm>
The fact that Survival lets you tutor Gofys or Kotor as a back up plan should tell you which is more likely to be banned. Vengivine, while nifty, is just a beater that requires some bad cards (Mongrel and Aquamobea for example) to enable properly. WoTC has shown that tutor effects are not welcome. I see SoTF being banned if the arch-type continues to dominate as much as it is through hate. Removing SoTF still leaves us with the toned down version ala Fauna Shaman. It's not nearly as good but can still allow the survival arch type to live with vengivine while having other fun combos like Iona-Retainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also, survival does not allow "hundreds" of decks. Dozens maybe, but not hundreds.
As of the moment, Survival gives you the following decks...Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Traditional Silver Bullet (tricky to classify as any one deck or type other than all sharing the 'silver bullet' approach. Take that as you will).
Silverbullet VV (the love child of silver bullet SotF and VV. Basically Silverbullet with 4x VV).
Mono G VV
Ooze VV
UG VV
UGw VV
GW VV.
Depending on how you count 'silver bullet', the actual number of decks enabled varies. Personally, I lump silverbullet together as a general deck/archetype for ease of collecting meta data.
No love for Wuascht Survival?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabal_chan