[Deck] The Rock

Yeah, my normal list is much more consistent, I'm just thinking out loud since there's not a lot I feel I can do to improve on my regular list. ;p I'm still not sold on Desolation Angel though. I think I'd rather that be a 4th Vindicate.

As for Titan Rock... Lotus Cobra maybe? If you're packing 6-10 fetches and have 5-6 cmc targets to ramp into, Cobra can be really sick. Sakura Tribe Elder just doesn't do it for me and I don't much like Haunting Echoes. Echoes seems too little too late. Maybe try adding some more targets for Sun Titan? Executioner's Capsule, Powder Keg, and Ratchet Bomb come to mind.

I feel that Sakura is just still too slow. I don't think that Lotus Cobra is the answer though because it gets wiped out by deed. I don't know if there really is any good answer here. I like mox diamond a little better but it still gets killed by deed. As sad as it is to say, maybe some sort of rampant growth effect would work. Haunting echoes is more for the control matchup. It ruins their day and turns the match into a walk in the park if resolved. It does that to pretty much anything but aggro decks. I could see getting rid of it. It would be nice to have a few other cards to bring back with Titan, but at the same time we don't want to make the deck Titan dependent. I'm thinking maybe instead of the 2 haunting echoes you could try 2x Unearth. That sounds like fun to me. If needed you can unearth your Sakura for a little more mana acceleration.

@zein i was talking about magic's list with the cipt lands. I guess I didn't say that.

About the the person that mentioned a really slow loam oriented list with walkers and witnesses that is a rather different archetype. IT's sometimes called trisomy 21. IT usually uses 2-4 deeds, garruk, smallpox, innocent blood, worm harvest, loam, cycles, 0-4 witness, 1 gigapede, diamonds etc.

Whoever posted the list with
4 doomblades
4 swords
4 hymn
2-4 verdicts
4 sinkhole
with 10 creatures i think
4 goyf
4 knight
2 stalker

Discard is CA until a point. After that point it becomes useless. That's the duality of it. When it's good it's some of the best disruption. But when it's bad is a waste of a card. Also you have no way to capitalize off of cheap removal. for example most rock builds can do versatile things on the first three turn due the lower mana curve. An example
t1 disruption
t2 threat/disruption
t3 removal/disruption/threat
but with 10 creatures it is more or less
t1 disruption/removal
t2 disruption/removal
with 10 threats, i think you will have some long games. I think you should plan sometimes to be reactive. But with 10 threats you are more than likely going to have to play control against most every deck. The problem is when you go up with something that has better control elements and a better long game than you. i.e. anything with blue you will be in trouble not just with your dead cards, but also lack of possible CA and low threat density. sinkhole is meh. You have vials, goyfs, zoo and some people still play daze

Alright so I couldn't sleep cuz I kept thinking about this list. (I'm a magic nerd I know) Here's a better version:

Titan Rock
creatures [16]
3 Sun Titan
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Quasali Pridemage

spells [19]
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Unearth


land [24]
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

The more I think about and revise this list the more I make myself believe that this deck is viable. Unearthing Sakura may seem sub optimal, but you're getting an extra land for 1 mana and it is ramping you into your Titan and quickening deed. Also not to mention that you can now do the infinite blocking loop with witness and unearth. I'm not sure what I was thinking on the last list, it's because I was at work and was going back and forth on typing it out. It's also funny that none of you noticed that it had swords to plowshares written twice in the list and also the list total added up to 70 cards and not 60. I guess nobody was really paying that close attention to my shenanigans.

also @Drza: You don't really need to hit diamond enough for the cycling lands to be good. You never really play them, just cycle them. Example: turn 1 play a fetch, pull a land, drop mox diamond, discard barren moor, play life from the loam get back barren moor and fetchland. Turn 2 depends on your hand. It can go turn 2 dredge loam drop a hymn/bob/quasali/tarm any 2 drop and then wasteland or just cycle the cycling land if you have no wasteland/targets or just drop knight which will be probably more than 2 cuz of the dredge and next turn he's gonna get at least + from fetching and possibly a lot more from cycling depending upon what the game state calls for.

I think you are looking at Hanni's list wrong. From the perspective of contemporary Rock, Sinkhole is meh. But his deck isn't looking to play like Rock currently does. I've been playing T2 lately, with mono-B Vat control. Vat is ridiculous, by the way and I expect it to dominate Extended and creep into Legacy, although that's neither here nor there. But often, with that deck, the correct play is to ignore the threat they just cast and continue attacking their hand, waiting to play Gatekeeper of Malakir or Doom Blade several turns later and absorbing some beats. I could drop Gatekeeper on turn 3 and kill their Ezuri or Joraga Warcaller or Sea Gate Oracle. But even if Oracle is holding back my Vampire Hexmage, I want to Mind Rot them or drop Liliana's Specter. I'll deal with the Oracle when I'm sure they're sufficiently disrupted and can't fight back. Otherwise, being reactive, I'm putting myself in a position to lose.

Hanni's list is an aggressive Rock list, not in the sense that it runs Doran and other somewhat subpar beaters instead of control cards, but in the sense that it is always attacking in the early game. Rather than attacking life, it's attacking resources.

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Hanni's list is an aggressive Rock list, not in the sense that it runs Doran and other somewhat subpar beaters instead of control cards, but in the sense that it is always attacking in the early game. Rather than attacking life, it's attacking resources.

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That's pretty much spot on. The Deadguy shell has always been about resource denial.

I'm not really digging the idea of Mox Diamond. I haven't tested with it yet, so I may be wrong, but I really don't find myself wishing I could speed up my early game at the cost of card disadvantage. There's only two matchups where I would want Mox Diamond: Zoo and Combo.

Against Zoo, simply boarding into more creature removal is the best way to beat that matchup. If they cannot get any damage through with their creatures early, they won't have you in burn range later. Then you drop your own big fat beats, for which they only have 4 Path to Exiles for, and then smash them midgame with better quality beaters. A large density of removal, combined with this decks big midrange aggro, makes Zoo a pretty good matchup postboard.

Against Zoo, Sinkhole is admittedly pretty bad. They drop guys too quickly, and this deck has to kill their creatures before it can attack their manabase. By the time the early creature rush is dealt with, their manabase is usually in a strong enough position that attacking with LD is no longer worth it. Don't get me wrong, the LD plan is still fantastic against them when they keep shaky hands with 1-2 land and they don't draw any more, but typically the LD plan is much worse than the 'blow up every creature' plan.

So for Zoo:

-4 Sinkhole
+4 Creature removal

Against combo, it really depends on the type of combo deck. Storm, Sneak&Show, and Spiral Tide are just a few of the different combo decks I come across, and some cards that are good in one of those matchups can be horrible in another. For the most part, Sinkhole is decent/pretty good against all 3, and Unmask is amazing out of the sideboard. Swords to Plowshares is usually dead in all of these matchups. Extirpate can be decent depending on matchup (can work well against High Tide sometimes), so additional dead removal can become Extirpate if needed.

So for Combo:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Unmask

Anyways, in the additional games I've playtested since I went with the 2/2 split of Doom Blade and Deed, I've been finding Deed much more valuable. I'm easily able to ramp into the mana to cast Deed, because the land destruction plan slows the game down alot, and Deed destroying multiple of the opponent's resources just wins games. I'll list my changes to the deck later after my testing with the deck.

I'm also wondering if I should just create a new thread for my decklist, since it plays alot more like Deadguy Ale than it does The Rock. I mean, it's a hybrid between the two (Deadguy and Rock), so it's kinda like the bastard child in either thread... What do you guys think?

(I know I used to have a thread for B/w/g Deadguy Rock back in 2008, but I can't seem to find it anywhere)

As you said it plays like Deadguy ale. The reason why deadguy ale isn't one of the best decks is because of all their grizzly bear creatures. It's consistent, strong, lots of ca. However it's slow due to small creatures. i think i would use b/b/w with loam and diamond. You can run mana denial just as much smallpox and such. you gain ca from cycle lands. I just think it has a better late game because of CA, library manipulation and just recurring threats.

Doesn't every deck that has a few creatures attack some resource. We can go land destruction, hand disruption and/or beatdown. Also it won't take long for people to realize springtide is pretty gosh darn bad. O i didnt see you added the deeds. I'm all for that it's more CA and is good against control, for the most part.

Well when you think about it deadguy ale and the rock play very similar. Most lists nowadays don't even run sinkhole like pikula did way back when. it has the same shell or removal/ disruption. Just different creatures.

I would turn the Doom Blades into Diabolic Edicts. One, you're perfectly happy with them sacrificing Hierarchs or whatever instead of 'goyf because it supplements your mana denial plan and it gives you a MD out to Emrakul and Progenitus. I would also wish I had slots for Pridemage, but I just cut it from my list because he's just not big enough. You do have Deed, but a resolved CB floating 3 is problematic. Seems decent enough though.

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As you said it plays like Deadguy ale. The reason why deadguy ale isn't one of the best decks is because of all their grizzly bear creatures. It's consistent, strong, lots of ca. However it's slow due to small creatures.

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This deck doesn't run Grizzly Bears or small creatures. :)

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So i think the reason why i don't really love your list isn't because of the removal. I'm sure this rapes any control deck. But because of the dead cards against countertop.

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Huh? How does this deck have alot of dead cards against CounterTop? CounterTop is actually one of the matchups that this deck rapes in the mouth. Especially the 4c versions of CounterTop; they are mana hungry and run a very vulnerable manabase, run some dead removal (Firespout), and both Vindicate and Pernicious Deed are a wrecking ball for them. A single resolved Knight of the Reliquary can systematically destroy their manabase with Wasteland tutoring, and Tombstalker isn't remotely within Counterbalance range.

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The new glissa just seems like a toshiro umezawa. Also i love loam so i think i would use b/b/w with loam and diamond. You can run mana denial just as much smallpox and such. you gain ca from cycle lands. I just think it has a better late game because of CA, library manipulation and just recurring threats.

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The new Glissa costs GGB for a 3/3 body. I'm not making arguments for or against Glissa, but I don't see what relevance Glissa has in regards to my list.

Loam is definitely a valid approach, but I'd be modeling the deck after Aggro Loam in that case (cycle lands, Entomb, etc). Aggro Loam Rock is another deck I've played with before, it's also incredibly strong; I actually posted a list for it on one of The Rock threads about 8 months ago or so (there's so many of them that I have no idea which one it was in).

Both decks are good decks, but they have completely different gameplans. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. The Loam version intends to grind the opponent out with card advantage; it's less aggressive and slower, but has a much stronger lategame. My version is more like a tempo version that wants to disrupt early and then beat face before the opponent can recover.

I'm of the personal opinion that my Deadguy version is already a bit slow (especially in comparison to New Horizons), and that it has a strong enough lategame as it is. Therefore, I think Deadguy Rock is better positioned in the current metagame. Again, that's my personal opinion.

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I would turn the Doom Blades into Diabolic Edicts. One, you're perfectly happy with them sacrificing Hierarchs or whatever instead of 'goyf because it supplements your mana denial plan and it gives you a MD out to Emrakul and Progenitus. I would also wish I had slots for Pridemage, but I just cut it from my list because he's just not big enough. You do have Deed, but a resolved CB floating 3 is problematic. Seems decent enough though.

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For testing purposes, I actually cut the Doom Blade's altogether for 3 Pernicious Deed. I upped my land count to 25 and cut the Savannah, going up to 4 Scrubland and 4 Bayou. In the sideboard, I cut the spot that Pernicious Deed was in for 4 Deathmark. So far, it's been working very well.

My maindeck answer to NO/Prog is to prevent my opponent from either having access to 2GG, keep them from having a green creature in play, or hopefully force them to discard the Natural Order. If they do resolve it, I either hope to race them with my own big guys, or scoop it up. Postboard, I gain access to Karakas.

Answering Emrakul is relatively the same: destroy their hand, limit their manasources, and scoop it up if they do resolve it (and I can't race them). Karakas postboard.

If I saw more Emrakul or Prog (I don't see either very often), I may run Diabolic Edict MD, and I'd definitely MD Karakas.

Here's the current list:

B/w/g Deadguy Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

So should this list get a new thread, or is it fine to stay here?

I recently saw some Standard Mimic Vat control decks and I wonder if this card could be used in the Rock in Legacy as well!?

Has anyone considered it together with creatures like Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, Wall of Blossoms, Fleshbag Marauder, ...?

Actually it sounds quite appealing to cast Shriekmaw/Witness/... each turn. It's like Isochron Scepter without card disadvantage. You can copy opponent's creatures, too and trigger the imprint with Cabal Therapy for own creatures.

i was talking about grizzly bear s in deadguy ale not in your deck Hanni. I honestly feel the 4c countertop is not that amazing. It gets hurt by wasteland so much. I think i would rather use thoptertop, bant, u/b/w, u/w etc.

The remark about glissa wasn't meant at you. I read someone bringing her up again. She seems rather not that amazing.

My point with the loam was that both decks seems extremely slow. Your deck being a little faster. My thoughts were that maybe it would be a bit slower but would have a stronger late game than your current list.

But i have to say after you cut doomblades i think i like your list a lot more. I feel it's good because of your card advantage. 6 discard+ 3 deeds. I think the main reason i have problems with it is because it doesn't fit my play style.

You could try testing mimic vat, but it seems really slow and clunky. first and foremost most decks have swords which makes the vat iffy. secondly it's slower than equipment. It seems more like a win more card.

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Originally Posted by sco0ter

I recently saw some Standard Mimic Vat control decks and I wonder if this card could be used in the Rock in Legacy as well!?

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It's a 3 cmc artifact that doesn't affect the gamestate until turn 4 and even then it doesn't win you the game. For 4 mana, you can do a lot better.

Hanni: here should be fine. It's not that much different from standard Rock. No more so than mine.

Mimic Vat is exceptional, but not for Rock. We've got other very mana intensive things to do. But is it 1.5 playable? I think so, in one of two shells. Either a slow, Landstill like control or an aggressive "big zoo" style green deck, probably loosely based on Jund.

This is the list I've been using for the rock. It's a little more control based then the other decks i've seen here.

2 Fetid Heath
4 Twilight Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Elspheth, Knight-Errant

3 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Gigapede

SB:
3 Enginnered Plague
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Dueling Grounds
1 Loxodon Heirarch
2 Enlightened Tutor

I guess you're on a bit of a budget. No Vindicate is ok I suppose if you don't have Wastelands. You really need some Goyfs and 4 KotR though. You don't have enough beats by a long shot. Gigapedes, Loxodons, and Edicts out, Kitchen Finks and Tops in. A third Arena or a set of Bobs couldn't hurt. If you have Eternal Witness, you should have a Volrath's Stronghold.

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Gigapedes, Loxodons, and Edicts out,

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Gigapede is a monster against the control matchup. I play one in my sideboard, but if he has alot of control decks in his metagame, maindecking Gigapede is a good call.

Gigapede isn't bad against control, but 5 mana is a big investment MD (or even SB) when you have no acceleration. Most likely he'll just get chump blocked into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Gigapede is a monster against the control matchup. I play one in my sideboard, but if he has alot of control decks in his metagame, maindecking Gigapede is a good call.

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Second this. I extensively playtested Trisomy 21 and LOVED gigapede. By the way, have you checked out trisomy 21? It's hella fun and very very heavy control. The thread is a constructive read as well.

Yeah I have a lot of of Counter top and Landstill decks and Gigapede has been working great for me. The Edicts are in there beacause last time I got killed by show and Tell and don't want that happening again. What would you recommend I take out for the fourth Knight? I had 4 before but took one out for a Giggapede. I'll try and find one volrath's stronghold, it seems pretty good.

Go to 4 Knights and go to 61.

Happy New Year to all of those in the Rock Thread! :D

-Matt