Hey so I was looking at the countertop thopter list and I was wondering what you would cut for 2x Jace. Also is there a reason you are using windswept heath over cheaper blue or white fetchlands?
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Hey so I was looking at the countertop thopter list and I was wondering what you would cut for 2x Jace. Also is there a reason you are using windswept heath over cheaper blue or white fetchlands?
If you are adding Jace you can drop one of the Thopter Foundry's; for the second though you have to make a choice, probably between Mana Leak or Enlightened Tutor but you could drop a Counterbalance or Ensnaring Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
As for the Heaths my guess is the manabase has not been updated since Zendikar came out.
Sorry I've not been very active. I've been stupid busy on my thesis.
Elspeth is not nearly as good as Jace, but Elspeth is pretty fantastic in this deck - that is my suggestion. Humility + Elspeth can lock out a lot of games. I'd strongly consider the 2nd Humility in this setup.
The manabase needs to be updated. I'll do that later.
peace,
4eak
For the record, I'm putting together the Enchantress list soon. I'll let you know how it plays.
I highly suggest reading the entire Enchantress thread (despite the sometimes poor signal to noise ratio) and practicing an enormous amount with that deck. It is a very special and unique deck which can sometimes require years to master, imho (I am certainly not a master of the deck). The skill curve of the deck is steep, and the ceiling for which skill still benefits you remains fairly high for Enchantress. Good luck!
peace,
4eak
Doesn't the word budget imply that price is a factor? And if so shouldn't the average price of the deck be listed?
I was looking through the lists and doing my own math for each one, only to find that again and again we differ significantly on the definition of "budget".
Prices would be a great addition.
The opening post explains my view on the definition of budget:
Of course we'll have problems agreeing to exactly what counts as budget. Again, I'm more interested in efficiency than I am with a ceiling. As an analogy, consider building a new PC. I could build you a PC for perhaps $200, and at best you'd be able to surf the web and do web processing. If you lose the ceiling, and allow me to build a PC which considered computational value/price efficiency, I could build you a PC to play Diablo 3 on max settings for about $350-400. Getting the most bang for you buck is what I'm after. If you don't like that, I'm sorry.Quote:
. Note that I'm not exactly sure 'what counts as a budget deck', but I know it when I see it (drawing that line isn't simple; in my view, it has some grey area). In constructing budget decks, my goal is usually to get the most bang for my buck; so, rather than building to a specific financial ceiling, I try to build for efficiency. That means I take short-cuts, use slightly less optimal but far cheaper cards when I can, but also that I use cards which are pricey but can't be substituted if and when necessary.
For budget decks which are cheaper versions of expensive Legacy decks, the aim is also to buy and build around the cheap cards in the shell, allowing for future growth in the ability to purchase the expensive cards if so desired. Obviously, this isn't always possible. Some decks rely too heavily upon their expensive cards to do this. Conversely, some decks are simply cheap, and thus fall into the category of being a budget deck in my eyes, but are what I believe to be fairly optimal, regardless of ceiling.
Please note that the opening post also says:
I'll be happy to build to a specific ceiling if you wish.Quote:
Some of you will think these are actually too expensive to be called budget decks. Anyone seeking an even cheaper deck need only ask -- give me a price ceiling and a description of the deck you want to play, and I'll build and test it for you.
Further, I wish to point out why a $400 could possibly be considered a budget deck in my eyes. Competitive Legacy is a very expensive format to enter.
Budget-Ceiling building in formats of lower power level and lower card rarity is easier. The difference in power level between a budget deck (w/Ceiling) and a top tier, expensive deck is proportionately smaller than the difference between a budget deck and top-tier, expensive deck in a format with higher overall power level and higher card rarity.
Budget-Ceiling decks can be more viable when the gap in power level is simply smaller between the well-built budget decks and the tier 1 decks. In fact, many Standard decks have humble, rogue, very low-cost beginnings. I can name a few Legacy decks which can say the same, but it happens with far more regularity in Standard.
Here is the deal: The very concept of 'budget' must scale with the format, including the power level and card rarity (indirectly card cost!). You'll find that a good, viable, budget deck in Legacy (without ceiling) may cost as much as an expensive tier 1 deck in Standard. Analogously, a well-made budget deck (without ceiling) in Vintage may cost as much as an expensive tier 1 deck in Legacy. Obviously, I'm painting in broad strokes here, but you see the point, right?
I expect budget decks in Standard to cost less, for the most part, than budget decks in Legacy. Legacy is very expensive, and its budget decks should probably be sitting around $300-500. I feel like I've done a good job of pointing out decks (at the times when I pointed them out especially) which sat at $100 or so in many cases. I really do sympathize with the ceiling notion of budget, particularly as I think Legacy just costs too much. I think it is going to die out because of its cost. Let us not, however, consider our worries about the rising and fairly high cost with Legacy as being a real argument against a scaling concept of 'budget'.
Budget building in Legacy is complicated. At its best, you have a rogue deck which is perfectly metagamed, and your pile of cards wrecks your specific metagame. At worst, you have a deck which is simply poorly positioned, too diluted, or lacking power level. In between, you have a known archetype which is watered down but still well-positioned enough that you still perform very well.
Prices change, a lot. I'm far too lazy to provide accurate, up-to-date prices. Prices also become more complicated to list when you are penny-pinching. Someone on a tight budget does not shop, for example, at Starcitygames with regularity. There are many other avenues for getting cards at much lower prices. Even if I were willing to sink the time, I think giving appropriate prices is harder than you imply.Quote:
shouldn't the average price of the deck be listed?
peace,
4eak
Hey 4eak I was thinking about building a similar list with Necrotic Ooze Combo built in, something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodghast
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lilliana of The Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Tainted Wood
1 Grim Backwoods
Is pernicious deed worth some slots? Is more reanimation needed? Thoughts?
Deed generally won't be a good card to use.
The reanimate gameplan is not boring. It looks too inconsistent to me, even with Library. I don't think it works. Even contemporary Reanimator has to devote an enormous amount of deckspace to achieve any semblance of consistency (the loss of Mystical tutor really hurt that deck).
VV and BG require a lot of deckbuilding space to abuse. I think you can have Reanimator or VV/BG gameplan, but not both. A transformational sideboard is possible, but graveyard hate will be coming in against this deck anyways, so I don't think it's a good transformation.
peace,
4eak
This has been discussed before so I do not want to derail the thread with a "What is budget" discussion. Personally I think this is a great list of casual Legacy decks, but few of them are budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by godofallu
If you want budget decks with prices I suggest you look at the "Getting started in legacy- Legacy on a Budget" (which might be worth linking in the opening post) here http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=280259
I know a few players that are buying Legacy cards but most new players, I know, think the format is too expensive to spend cash on. If I did not already own 40 duals I would play Modern instead. The Reserved list is certainly a barrier to playing Legacy but the simple fact that Wizards are not reprinted staple uncommon cards like Force and Wasteland is what is really killing the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
In an effort to revive this thread--one of my favorite threads of all time--before it becomes too outdated. When they unbanned land tax, I was mulling what kind of deck land tax belonged in. I remembered 4eak's mono white deck, remembered I had built it ages ago, and dug it out. I do not recommend putting land tax in the deck. It's effects are marginal, matchup specific, and dependent on getting it in the opening hand. Additionally, getting two land taxes in the deck, which relies on card quality so much, is just devastating. However, I do have a couple of updates. I think some number of terminus are worthwhile in the deck, unless the turn 4 wrath of god play is important in your meta for some reason. I've also been testing humility in the sideboard for those sneak and show decks that seem to be everywhere all of a sudden. I put it in the ghostly prison slot, but it might also replace the ensnaring bridge/arena of the ancients slot too.
So, TLDR; MWC list, -3 WoG, +3 Terminus, Sideboard: -1 Ghostly Prison, +1 humility.
I just posted this on another thread, but I think that I could get some feedback as well:
Spirits: 19
3_Lantern kami
2_Kami of False Hope
4_Nibilis of the Urn
4_Drogskoll Capitan
4_Celestial Crusader
2_Guardian of the Guildpact
SFM package: 5
3_Stoneforge Mystic
1_Jitte
1_Batterskull
Utility: 14
3_Meekstone
4_Swords to Plowshares
2_Ponder
1_Spell Pierce
2_Mana Leak
2_Oblivion Ring
Mana: 22
1_Aether Vial
2_Evolving Wilds
14_Plains
5_Island
I need help mostly with the budget mana base and SB.
How budget is your budget? Also Aether Vial is not really mana...Quote:
Originally Posted by GenioDeArena
glacial fortress is cheap for the manabase.
Sideboard
Combo hate
4 Mindbreak Trap
Grave hate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
The thing is that i live in Argentina and our currency is getting really devaluated. I have no problem in getting some Glacial Fortresses but, are they worth it? everything costs times five around here, a single Tundra would cost me Half my salary...
I know tha Vial i´snt a land, but chats creatures into play so it works in a similar way. is 22 land good or too much?
For the list I posted Im going to remove both the Guradians and the Meekstones in favor of 3 Midnight hauntings and another pair of Ponders.
Thanks for the SB ideas.
Sadly MTG is an expensive hobby. If $100 / 450 Argentine Peso is half your salary you probably have more things to worry about than buying magic cards though since that is well below the National Minimum wage. You can always use Sejiri Refuge's as a really cheap dual land.Quote:
Originally Posted by GenioDeArena
Meekstones are probably better in the sideboard since they do not help against a lot of opponents (most control & combo decks).Quote:
Originally Posted by GenioDeArena
Thanks for the SB ideas.
Any chance to get a changelog on first post? I visit this thread every here and there, and not always find the changes, if there is any.
I normally just post when I've updated it (which is rarely at this point - I'll eventually have to revamp this). What would you want the changelog to look like?
peace,
4eak
Hmmm
Date - decks changed would be enough.
Change log
10/10/10 - Updated merfolks, added Thunderbluff;
Here you go, this is what I dug from fast thread overview, you can reverse the dates if you think it's better:
Change log
04-16-2011 - Thread Created - Added xyz decks;
04-16-2011 - Added Burn;
04-17-2011 - Added CounterTop Thopters, Mono Black Aggro-Control and Enchantress;
05-06-2011 - Added MWC;
06-09-2011 - Added Mono Green Infect;
06-09-2011 - Updated Dredge, Merfolk, MUC, Burn, CBTop, Mono Black Aggro-Control;
06-16-2011 - Updated Affinity;
06-19-2011 - Updated Mono Green Infect, Mono Black Aggro Control;
07-03-2011 - Added White Winnie;
07-03-2011 - Updated Mono White Control;
07-06-2011 - Updated GW/Maverick.
07-08-2011 - Reorganized main page;
07-08-2011 - Added UW "Stoneblade" Control;
07-08-2011 - Index Added;
09-14-2011 - Updated Dredge;
09-25-2011 - Updated Dredge, Reanimator, Affinity,
Mono Green Infect, Merfolk, MBAC, GW Maverick, Death and Taxes, MUC, Countertop Thopters, U/W Stoneblade;
12-14-2011 - Added UR Delver/Counterburn/Blue Sligh;
12-14-2011 - Updated Dredge;
01-02-2012 - Added Pox;
02-07-2012 - Updated Mono Red Goblins;
02-09-2012 - Updated Mono Green Infect;
Done. I've added the change log to 2nd post.
peace,
4eak