The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

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Originally Posted by Draener

The impact of snapcaster mage and mental misstep would have been a pretty big change... perhaps pushing blue into dominance.

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That's funny. Good one.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Swords to Plowshares, Spell Snare, Daze, and spell pierce. I think snapcaster might get some use in control. Body to chump block while getting most needed card back.

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In a month we'll find out... but I'm not holding my breath nor wasting my money on this guy.

Lancer do you even play eternal? Snapcaster mage is going to see play in any format, even Standard and you can bet my word on it. It won't see play in every deck because it fits more in the line of blue-control/aggro-control. In eternal, its function is beyond reusing cards for the sake of reusing them to gain card advantage, it could be built into combo shells.

Wasting money on this guy is the only thing I agree with you now. The $30 SCG price tag is a tad high, but holding your breath on this guy I don't agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

Lancer do you even play eternal? Snapcaster mage is going to see play in any format, even Standard and you can bet my word on it. It won't see play in every deck because it fits more in the line of blue-control/aggro-control. In eternal, its function is beyond reusing cards for the sake of reusing them to gain card advantage, it could be built into combo shells.

Wasting money on this guy is the only thing I agree with you now. The $30 SCG price tag is a tad high, but holding your breath on this guy I don't agree with you.

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Sure he's going to see play; but I dont see him as a threat.

I him sort of like a blue vindicate. Got a problem with creatures? Flash back that swords. Big spell? Flashback Spell Pierce. It does seem a little broken... I actually feel this card's flexability might lead to it being banned as well.

I think he's pretty overhyped

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Originally Posted by joemauer

You guys all have it backwards.

I don't think Mental Misstep was banned because Snapcaster was coming. Snapcaster Mage was coming knowing MM was gonna get axed in the next set of bannings, elsewise they wouldn't have printed Snapcaster Mage.

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Will I agree that Snapcaster + MM would be really strong, you can't just pretend to know what WotC was thinking. Sets are usually designed quite some time in advance. It's super likely Snapcaster was put into the new set before Mental Misstep was created. I don't know though. But so do you.

Besides that, you can't pay the alternate cost for Daze with Snapcaster Mage, just like you can't flashback Force by pitching a card.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Will I agree that Snapcaster + MM would be really strong, you can't just pretend to know what WotC was thinking. Sets are usually designed quite some time in advance. It's super likely Snapcaster was put into the new set before Mental Misstep was created. I don't know though. But so do you.

Besides that, you can't pay the alternate cost for Daze with Snapcaster Mage, just like you can't flashback Force by pitching a card.

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Actually, given that R&D apparently thought that MMS was going to be used by Zoo to fight combo, they probably weren't really thinking that much about Snapcaster and MMS. If you read the article explaining the ban, MMS was created because they wanted to give non-blue decks a way to interact and were instead shocked to find that MMS just made blue that much stronger.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Besides that, you can't pay the alternate cost for Daze with Snapcaster Mage, just like you can't flashback Force by pitching a card.

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Snapcaster + daze is more of fringe case, but with control decks fringe cases happen a lot. The snapcaster mage in the right deck will be very versatile while giving you a body to chump block. Controlish decks seem to want to take advantage of this the most, not combo.

As aggro_zombies kinda pointed out, Mental Misstep was made to fight brainstorm and combo from non blue decks. Snapcaster probably was intended to help blue because Mental Misstep was going to be countering their best spell left and right(in WotC mind set). After seeing how the metagame developed WotC then banned MM. Had MM not gotten banned I don't believe WotC would have let Snapcaster(in its curent form) into this newest set with blue being so predominant.

I must chime in.

Mental Misstep needed to be banned. Here's why:

It was by far the best card in the format. We all knew it the moment we saw New Phyrexia spoiled. A colorless counterspell that interacts with all card types of the most important CMC and can be played for free with no drawback IS format defining.

In an otherwise total mirror match the deck with MM would be a favorite over the deck without. The only way to beat it was to play it. Anyone advocating playing only 2 cmc spells was horribly off-track (yes, Aggro-Loam works, but a format of Aggro Loam, Dredge, and control decks is pretty worthless).

The players advocating the If-You-Can't-Beat-'Em,-Join-'Em approach (you know, the ones saying "If you want to beat Mystical/Survial/MM just play Mystical/Survival/MM) have a fundamentally flawed view of the Legacy format. Magic is not Chess. Most of us don't want to play with the same pieces as our opponent.

But Mental Misstep painted us into that corner. When one card is the best in the format, and every deck can play it, then every deck HAS to play it (or play manaless Dredge or Aggro-Loam).

Once the point was reached where EVERY deck played MM it was obvious that the decks that played it best would rise to the top. Since MM is a counterspell it would clearly work better when supported by other counterspells and control. Suddenly 75% of the field were decks running the blue core of 4MM, 4 BS, 4FoW, subsidized with a removal/control/card drawing engine and 8-10 win conditions.

Games became more and more similar. Even if you were playing against a deck with different colors you were still playing against a deck with essentailly the same strategy. The thing players loved most about the format (the diversity) was eroding. We all saw it at local tourneys and at SCG top 16s.

When one card is the best card in the format and everyone can play it regardless of deck and it is a readily available and affordable card EVERYONE WILL PLAY IT. And the format will lose its diversity.

Yes, everyone will be playing the BEST deck in the game, but everyone will be playing the SAME DECK. That's just not fun. Legacy Magic is not Chess. It's not Poker. It's not Standard. We like to play Legacy to see and play against different cards and decks every round of an 8 round tourney. That's FUN.

So I'm glad MM is banned. It was a mistake to print and WotC realized and corrected it in a timely manner.

One last point- Don't bitch about MM the way you might have about Survival. Survival was actually part of an engine, and a combo. Survival (and most of the cards on the banned list) are part of an overpowered strategy. When they got banned, decks died. MM is just a control piece, but it is just too good of one to not warp the format around its self.

You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH, Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill more-so than it does.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

One last point- Don't bitch about MM the way you might have about Survival. Survival was actually part of an engine, and a combo. Survival (and most of the cards on the banned list) are part of an overpowered strategy. When they got banned, decks died. MM is just a control piece, but it is just too good of one to not warp the format around its self.

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Now basically all the control decks died.

MMS slowed the format down enough to give you the time to follow a strategy, now Merfolk and Zoo will go back to Tier 1, decks that every moron can use that will not actually give you time to set something up but require you to dump out as much shit as possible in the first few turns.

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Originally Posted by Draener

You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH, Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill more-so than it does.

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I've kept the same signature for the last 5 years or so. But this, this was too fantastic not to sig. I wish I'd spent more time talking to you at the Invitational in Indy. You are the man.

Thoughtseize.dec lives. Finally, the essential card that can by itself ruin a weak hand is reliable again. Plus, Dark Ritual is good now. Everyone likes Ritual.:wink:

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Originally Posted by paK0

Now basically all the control decks died.

MMS slowed the format down enough to give you the time to follow a strategy, now Merfolk and Zoo will go back to Tier 1, decks that every moron can use that will not actually give you time to set something up but require you to dump out as much shit as possible in the first few turns.

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Obviously, Control didn't exist before Mental Misstep and Merfolk and Zoo haven't been Tier 1 since Misstep was printed. Don't forget that only Control players are smart and Aggro players are all dumb.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Obviously, Control didn't exist before Mental Misstep and Merfolk and Zoo haven't been Tier 1 since Misstep was printed. Don't forget that only Control players are smart and Aggro players are all dumb.

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Amen

I'm ecstatic that we get to keep Brainstorm, that means I can still play Tide and Thought Lash. Problem is, they banned Misstep, the single most important card in protecting the win condition (Lab Maniac :laugh:) Guess I might try Turn Aside?

Other folks get to keep their ANT/TES which is cool. I don't think U/w or Ubg control decks are entirely dead, but Aggro is definitely strong once again.

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Originally Posted by Draener

You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH, Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill more-so than it does.

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How so? Is an environment with ~5 playable decks more skill rewarding than a diverse field of (semi)competitive decks, where there's always the fear of losing to Randomness.dec? I sure don't think so. Innovation and homebrewed decks have always been the thing that made Legacy a unique format. Playing legacy is not only about playing perfectly in matchups you've tested a billion times, if I wanted that I could just play standard. It is also deckbuilding skills, developing new strategies against unknown archetypes and also a lot of metagaming.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

You guys all have it backwards.

I don't think Mental Misstep was banned because Snapcaster was coming. Snapcaster Mage was coming knowing MM was gonna get axed in the next set of bannings, elsewise they wouldn't have printed Snapcaster Mage.

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You realize that they make magic sets a year in advance right? If they had actually predicted that Misstep + Snapcaster Mage would be as good as most of us think, they wouldn't have printed one of them (most likely Misstep). Snapcaster Mage was already at the press by the time Misstep's foothold on legacy was apparent.

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Originally Posted by paK0

Sometimes I question the sanity of WotC.

After years we finally have a format where control players can actually play a normal game.

Now its back to: "Have a FoW? No? Vial, go, cya in g2"

Also combo gets stronger again, I really don't see how a format that decides the game in the first 1-3 turns is more fun than one where you actually need to play the game to win.

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I am 100% positive u are one of those people I would talk mad shit 2 if I sat across from them in a tournament. But what exactly defines "normal" game? Playing in a format where you consistently see Stoneforge mirrors that go 2 time and drag tournaments out? Games that take 20 mins each to finish? Go play standard if you want that. Legacy is a fast format, if you can't handle Zoo and combo ... play something else. What this argument seems like to me is "my StoneforgeBullshit.deck is no longer at the top of the pole and no longer has a shot at beating most everything I'm paired against." Awesome ... welcome to how Legacy should be.