The Long Term future of this format...

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

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Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

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Originally Posted by CorwinB

Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

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Yeah, not so much in Scandinavia. But i went to Barcelona, and they had a legacy tournament with 30 attending each day, then on each weekend they would have more and once a month they'd have a tournament the size of a SCG tournament. But yeah, people buying into legacy as a format is at some point going to be hard, that is when i'm scared for this format. When you have to say no, because there are no other copies left except at 300$ each for a revised dual land or something equally absurd.

Sets like Modern Masters and/or Commander's Arsenal see such limited print runs and goofy price tags that they feel more aimed at the collector than the player IMO. Or, they just can't decide which constituency they should be pleasing more, so they try to do both. Either way, for a guy like me the price tag is just untenable.

If staple reprints were really a solution that Wizards felt would fix whatever catastrophic faults are implicit in Eternal formats, they'd just put them in Core Sets. They're supposed to be 50% reprints anyway, why not just give everybody the means to play all formats via the Core Sets. Print fetchlands one year, shocklands the next, etc etc, throw in some staple removal spells and disruption spells here and there. It would make Legacy players more likely to play Standard b/c their cards are already bought. It would make long-term Standard players more able to trickle down into Modern/Legacy. It doesn't screw anyone over b/c it (sadly) sticks to the Reprint Policy. Standard can still experiment with new methods of mana fixing and removal, because it's Standard, and power creep isn't implicit anymore b/c maybe there's a season of Standard with like, fucking fetchlands and Thoughtseize, so why try and print more broken variants? It'd fix a lot of availability issues, I've never understood why this wasn't the approach to begin with.

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Originally Posted by CorwinB

Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

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Europe also has its population a lot more concentrated. Also the Legacy scene is pretty miserable outside of the Latin countries and Germany. UK/Scandinavia = not so much Legacy.

MtG is just a paper MMO. You gotta grind for that good stuff.

More seriously,
You ppl all freak me out. I've said it before, but I'll have to say it again: if you want to play legacy, then play it. You don't need SCG or any other entity. For fuck's sake, get organized. You are here, so do it locally. Twitter tag, #Htownlegacy. Go to card shops, corral. Don't be so lazy.

Besides, somebody somewhere will flood the market with beautiful looking dupes. Wizards doesn't print currency, okay. Their product can be counterfeited.

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Originally Posted by Oiolosse

MtG is just a paper MMO. You gotta grind for that good stuff.

More seriously,
You ppl all freak me out. I've said it before, but I'll have to say it again: if you want to play legacy, then play it. You don't need SCG or any other entity. For fuck's sake, get organized. You are here, so do it locally. Twitter tag, #Htownlegacy. Go to card shops, corral. Don't be so lazy.

Besides, somebody somewhere will flood the market with beautiful looking dupes. Wizards doesn't print currency, okay. Their product can be counterfeited.

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Doesn't work that well. Counterfeiting Magic is less reward-for-effort ratio than counterfeiting money. The high dollar items, unlike dollar bills, are collectibles and appeal mostly to a niche collector's market with a much greater expertise and a much greater interest in carefully looking over their purchases. If you hand the cashier five twenty-dollar bills, they're barely going to look at them. A hundred dollar bill attracts more scrutiny precisely because it's more worth faking, but still not nearly the kind of scrutiny a $100+ Magic card gets from the kind of people who buy $100 Magic cards.

You still get some fakes, but because of the significant effort of making a really really good fake, most of them tend to be quite shoddy. Easily spotted by anyone who has experience with it, but able to fool enough people to get a few out there.

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Originally Posted by FieryBalrog

Doesn't work that well. Counterfeiting Magic is less reward-for-effort ratio than counterfeiting money. The high dollar items, unlike dollar bills, are collectibles and appeal mostly to a niche collector's market with a much greater expertise and a much greater interest in carefully looking over their purchases. If you hand the cashier five twenty-dollar bills, they're barely going to look at them. A hundred dollar bill attracts more scrutiny precisely because it's more worth faking, but still not nearly the kind of scrutiny a $100+ Magic card gets from the kind of people who buy $100 Magic cards.

You still get some fakes, but because of the significant effort of making a really really good fake, most of them tend to be quite shoddy. Easily spotted by anyone who has experience with it, but able to fool enough people to get a few out there.

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I am referring to a completely accurate fake. I reckon it can be done. The technology is there. I don't see that you have a basis for it "not being worth it" because the higher dollar cards are scrutinized more. Sure, beta p9, Bazaar, etc. may be. But a cheap playset of duals will sell on ebay with little more investigation than, "is this the same as the picture". Even if the buyer is pertinent, my premise is that these are functional fakes.

Just like what happened to vintage, it will slowly die due to price inflation of the cards.

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

Am I missing something concerning dying of the format?

- Even if there are no GP's,SCG,... as long as people love to play legacy and there are stores/individuals organizing events there will be legacy to play.

- Inflation of price is a problem, but you can't compare it to vintage just because of the much higher number of staples (duals, FoW,...) which are available compared to P9, Workshop,... So as long as these staples are in the hands of people enjyoing to play legacy there will be this critical amount of people showing up for events.

So I understand "dying" in the sense of limited growth due to price issues for starters and wizards pushing modern, but I fail to understand why it should be like vintage where the obvious problem is that there are not enough cards around to make it worth organizing more events and/or people don't enjoy it enough. If people stop playing legacy, some will sell/lend their cards so other people can play (collecting huts this equation to a certain extend of course).

Another factor is the fun: Can't imagine that people suddenly stop enjyoing KoR into powerful lands, brainstorm into fetchland or counting to 10, so new & existing players will be attracted to legacy compared to modern for the same reason that past generations where attracted to legacy compared to extended.
In the worst case scenario if the price becomes too big of an issue, events can be played allowing proxies. But as long as the format is not stuck and these linear budget decks like, elves, burn, affinity, dredge, Pox,... can succeed on any given day, it is in fact not hard to get started in legacy.

My prediction/hope: Plenty of legacy to play in the upcoming years. In my local community in CEE, we ar actually just starting to talk to each other about getting together more to have bigger lecacy events in the future.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

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$20 for a Reset! How absurd!

How times have changed...

Almost looks like Legacy is going to come full circle.

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Originally Posted by Mr.C

$20 for a Reset! How absurd!

How times have changed...

Almost looks like Legacy is going to come full circle.

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7 years later Reset is still $20. I don't see a problem :P

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Originally Posted by Finn

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

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Very good. Finn, you f*ckin' genius.

So, what do you predict for the format now?

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
Sargasso Sea
Legendary Artifact Land - Forest Island

There. Both are different colors and sub/supertypes from the originals and therefor not protected by the reserved list policy. If both are printed in successive blocks that should significantly lower the dual requirements of decks. You will still want some duals to fetch up, but you could sneak one or more of each in for a variety of reasons. Legacy decks are already kept in check from using too many nonbasics by Wasteland and Price of Progress. I don't know what the deal is like in Modern, but bannings are a perfectly reasonable way to keep Legacy indefinitely afloat IMO.

EDIT: You would need some sort of color hosers in Standard to get the first one printed. It could be a few simple ones but I like it as the primary or secondary focus of the block like Terror was in Mirrodin.

Actually on tumblr the other day MaRo mentioned something about legacy, I forgot about it until now but it seems appropriate. (Link: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-dont-like-the )

I sent him a recommendation of near-functional reprints for reserve listed staples (eg. Reverberate vs Fork) and something similar Finn's suggestion for new duals (different subtypes/text on dual lands that etb untapped and can be fetched). As well as just actual reprints of non-reserved staples.

Honestly, if people are this concerned about legacy dieing, try to send solutions to people at WotC. I've sent in emails before asking for near-functional reprints, and jsut regular reprints of things like force of will. MaRo says he can't look at actual suggestions for cards, but he can look at requests for a type of card. So, while sending in the examples Finn said won't work, something like "Dual lands with one basic land type instead of two?" as a suggestion could be entirely reasonable.

I'm not saying Spam MaRo's inbox or anything, but, if you want R&D to do something about legacy, try to give them ideas of how to help sustain legacy.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
Sargasso Sea
Legendary Artifact Land - Forest Island

There. Both are different colors and sub/supertypes from the originals and therefor not protected by the reserved list policy. If both are printed in successive blocks that should significantly lower the dual requirements of decks. You will still want some duals to fetch up, but you could sneak one or more of each in for a variety of reasons. Legacy decks are already kept in check from using too many nonbasics by Wasteland and Price of Progress. I don't know what the deal is like in Modern, but bannings are a perfectly reasonable way to keep Legacy indefinitely afloat IMO.

EDIT: You would need some sort of color hosers in Standard to get the first one printed. It could be a few simple ones but I like it as the primary or secondary focus of the block like Terror was in Mirrodin.

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Also something simple like;

Omgad Blue/Green Dual
Land - Forest Island
You may have this cip tapped, if you do gain a life.

There are so many close to a dual that wouldn't have a big downside so they could keep it up. this could never be printed in standard though. Is it broken? Hell yes, but the original duals are broken as well :P.

In terms of new Duals, besides SNow Duals they could always reprint something like this

Haunted Woods
Land - Forest Swamp

Haunted Woods enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another Forest or Swamp

so dual check lands

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Originally Posted by Finn

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
.

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My lands pitch to FoW....

Yes PLZ!!!

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Originally Posted by menace13

My lands pitch to FoW....

Yes PLZ!!!

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It should also read "When Brackish Mangroves ETB Delver of Secrets/Insect thingy get's +4/+4". :wink:

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Originally Posted by Jenni

Actually on tumblr the other day MaRo mentioned something about legacy, I forgot about it until now but it seems appropriate. (Link: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-dont-like-the )

I sent him a recommendation of near-functional reprints for reserve listed staples (eg. Reverberate vs Fork) and something similar Finn's suggestion for new duals (different subtypes/text on dual lands that etb untapped and can be fetched). As well as just actual reprints of non-reserved staples.

Honestly, if people are this concerned about legacy dieing, try to send solutions to people at WotC. I've sent in emails before asking for near-functional reprints, and jsut regular reprints of things like force of will. MaRo says he can't look at actual suggestions for cards, but he can look at requests for a type of card. So, while sending in the examples Finn said won't work, something like "Dual lands with one basic land type instead of two?" as a suggestion could be entirely reasonable.

I'm not saying Spam MaRo's inbox or anything, but, if you want R&D to do something about legacy, try to give them ideas of how to help sustain legacy.

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that was my question :P

i think that if we ask for answers to legacy, we can save our format