[Deck] Jund

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Guys, if you are concerned about TES, please just switch decks. Jund kills fair stuff. Jund dies to unfair stuff. Hell, it cannot even beat a turn 3 EtW for 14+. That's like the worst a TES deck coughs up normally. I'd recommend making sure you beat all the fair stuff, and have versatile sideboard cards that work against both control and combo (more discard, REB's, Surgicals, perhaps a few Pulses). Good TES players will just kill you. Against a bad one, or an unlucky one, you have a chance. But never more than just a chance.

I would say that against strong TES-players, your matchup will be somewhere around 20-25 / 75-80.

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That's pretty fair. For me, being in NY state, it's like the Combo Den (or at least Eye of the Storm) so Jund just under performs.

My buddy has a very solid list for combo and control; I'll post it soon.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

I do think PFires is absolutely key to winning against fair decks and helps greatly against control.

Against fair decks, you get to wipe out all the X/2's with 3 mana and X/4's with 5 mana on top of winning 'goyf fights.

Against control, Pfires is a great answer to Jace and really keeps him from getting out of control. It also has a side benefit of killing SFM's, Cliques, Vensers and even Batterskull germs (repeatedly) as well.

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Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?

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I think Cursed Scroll is easier to hate out than PFires is. Regular artifact hate or Needle/Revoker just kills Cursed Scroll whereas a lot of yard hate won't hit PFires if you play around it.

Also don't forget once you get to 5 mana, PFires can kill X/4's, which Cursed Scroll can't do.

To me, it's not an issue of the number of removal spells, but that PFires is a recurrable one (so you're spending less slots on removal yet still effectively having the same amount).

I think Tombstalker is bad just because of the whole Dark Confidant interaction especially since Jund typically has close to 0 library manipulation.

Been brewing this p. fire jund lists and want to get some input (i am going to abbreviate some cards) :

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstaind Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of Burnt Willows
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Bbe
4 goyf
4 bob
4 deathrite

4 bolt
4 a. Decay
3 p fire
3 lily 2.0
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

Board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
3 duress
2 rakdos charm
1 hymn
1 library
1 golgari charm
1 flex spot

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Originally Posted by lambert101

Been brewing this p. fire jund lists and want to get some input (i am going to abbreviate some cards) :

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstaind Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of Burnt Willows
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Bbe
4 goyf
4 bob
4 deathrite

4 bolt
4 a. Decay
3 p fire
3 lily 2.0
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

Board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
3 duress
2 rakdos charm
1 hymn
1 library
1 golgari charm
1 flex spot

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Maindeck seems fine. You can probably cut 1 Bolt for a 4th Liliana if you want. I'd probably also stick the 4th BBE into the board.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Maindeck seems fine. You can probably cut 1 Bolt for a 4th Liliana if you want. I'd probably also stick the 4th BBE into the board.

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This is that list I mentioned; Lambert and I are of the opinion that the 4th Lilly can have the same problem the 4th BBE has: cumbersome when you are down on mana, and not always what you need. Bolt gives you reach, and is too good (imo) to not run 4.

I do agree that the 4th BBE should be in the board.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Do you think it's that risky if Boom / Bust is a 1-of? I wouldn't MD the card, just as a 1-of in the SB against control only, whereas Sinkhole has other applications. I would take the chance of losing 8 life I probably wouldn't need against control if I have the opportunity to do serious damage to the opponent's manabase with either half of the card.

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My bad, somehow I thought you meant 3 Boom//Bust, 1 Sinkhole. Anyway, against control decks, assuming you're playing Punishing Fire, why not board in Deed instead? Between Punishing Fire, Decay and Deed, you're going to have answers to pretty much everything, and at least Deed is good against random tempo and Gobs.

In other news, on TCdecks today they've shown a Maverick list with Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege. People are starting to show Jund some respect! :cool:

For my list posted earlier, Bbe is going to be "flex spot". Was also thinking that or Garuk Relentless

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

I think Cursed Scroll is easier to hate out than PFires is. Regular artifact hate or Needle/Revoker just kills Cursed Scroll whereas a lot of yard hate won't hit PFires if you play around it.

Also don't forget once you get to 5 mana, PFires can kill X/4's, which Cursed Scroll can't do.

To me, it's not an issue of the number of removal spells, but that PFires is a recurrable one (so you're spending less slots on removal yet still effectively having the same amount).

I think Tombstalker is bad just because of the whole Dark Confidant interaction especially since Jund typically has close to 0 library manipulation.

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Right, Bob. I'm just going to shut up and stop posting from work when I apparently can't think.

I really like Garruk Relentless. He's a total house in many matchups, and hands you the game on a silver platter agai st control. I'm running 3 Liliana, 3 BBE, 1 Garruk in the main (non PF list) and it is usually OK, though I wouldn't dream of pushing any higher. There's a large amount of Miracles in my meta still, so I have taken to running 2 Ooze in the main for a total of 17 creatures. The extra grave hate definitely comes in handy, and I'm only running 2 SE now for a bit of extra discard vs combo. I'm very happy with my list, and I really don't feel combo is do horrid. I mean, sure it's bad, but it's far better than Burn IMO. I think we are even or favored post board against ANT.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?

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As you already mentioned, getting BB is really important and I hate drawing Taiga. Sometimes I think of just cutting it out.

TS is awful for many reasons because we don't want to be running yet another spell that costs BB. TS also destroys our graveyard which we rely on for our DSR and competes in cost with BBE. Not to mention getting a TS with Confidant out is auto-lose. We don't have Brainstorm or Ponder to keep the Russian roulette of TS and Confidant from destroying us and putting a SDT isn't optimal. Besides what are we going to take out? I would rather go with a 4th BBE.

I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

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You can't really argue with that, only lost to basically auto lose decks, and Jund which is generally decided by the die roll and luck most of the time anyway. Strong results, well played.

Even taking a game off of Belcher is pretty good for Jund! :)

I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice.

Edit:
I'm sorry, this post was definitely in no way reasonable. Maybe I'm not playing with/against against the right decks. I guess the combo matchup was interactive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

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Congrats on the 6-3 and camera match, was watching the stream at that point until about round 7, when I saw Jund -vs- Loam Jund I think I even tweeted on the different Jund lists that have come out in the past few months.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice.

Edit:
I'm sorry, this post was definitely in no way reasonable. Maybe I'm not playing with/against against the right decks. I guess the combo matchup was interactive.

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It's fine. There are sometimes when you have to consider if you disrupt with say Hymn on T2 or do you go ahead and drop Bob. There's also some situations where you have to decide if you want to hold on to BBE or just immediately cast it, etc.

Also, winning is always fun :)

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice!

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I can manipulate my draws, I have a sylvan library :p
Besides why manipulate draws when you can just draw multiple cards a turn ie BE and Bob, and PF to an extent.

Forgot to post here after playing Jund at SCG Las Vegas.

Round 1: (0-2) Mono Green Infect
Round 2: (0-2) Combo Elves
Round 3: (2-1) Sneak and Show
Round 4: (2-0) Goblins
Round 5: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 6: (2-0) Vial Knights
Round 7: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 8: ID to top 32, my opponents said he was playing Mono Black Pox.

5-2-1, pretty happy with the results. Played against almost every tribal deck in Legacy and almost slaughtered them all. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by NathanS2k

Forgot to post here after playing Jund at SCG Las Vegas.

Round 1: (0-2) Mono Green Infect
Round 2: (0-2) Combo Elves
Round 3: (2-1) Sneak and Show
Round 4: (2-0) Goblins
Round 5: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 6: (2-0) Vial Knights
Round 7: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 8: ID to top 32, my opponents said he was playing Mono Black Pox.

5-2-1, pretty happy with the results. Played against almost every tribal deck in Legacy and almost slaughtered them all. :laugh:

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That's pretty funny. Shame you didn't beat Infect though.

Here's what I've been running:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Savaging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands:
3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain

I'm really solid on this main deck, especially the Oozes. I really like the extra bodies and the effect. My sideboard is a bit more in flux. Currently I have:

Sideboard:
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil

I played around with Needle for a while, but wasn't really thrilled with it. I recent dropped Grdge for +1 Duress, +1 Pyroblast. I never really found Grudge all that useful. I lose to Vortex more than Jitte. Speaking of which, what do people think about running enchantment hate? Either Naturalize or Seal of Primorium? Someone mentioned to me that maybe running Seals could be good. Cascading into Seal of Primordium sure beats cascading into Naturalize when they don't have anything to hit on the table to hit. On the downside, it's at sorcery speed to cast (but not to use).

I'm running Pyroclasm largely for Lingering Souls but I also bring it in in the mirror. If I fall behind in board position it can really turn things around, plus I'm running a few more bodies than most Jund decks (and those bodies survive Pyroclasm!) In the mirror I sideboard -2 Thoughtseize, -2 IoK, +1 Liliana, +1 Hymn, +2 Pyroclasm.

What matchups do you guys take out Bolts and discard for? In general I drop discard against creature decks and bolts against blue decks.

One card I'm on the fence about is Darkblast. Has anyone tried it out? Sure it's not as good as PFire, but in PFless buds it might be a nice way for a bit of extra removal. Would you guys want to play it in the side (-1 Pyroblast) or in the main (-1 Library)?