[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

No other color have the unconditional card drawing cards black has. I figure it would be a mistake to take advantage of that.

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Well, blue has hard draw advantage, but for the mana, black can't be beat, though you bleed for it. When I ran Phyrexian Arena, I had some way of getting health back. Usually it involved Spinning Darkness, Bloodchief Ascension, and in the past, Vampire Nighthawk. Then you could stack arenas and draw 3 cards per turn, etc.

I didn't get good results with it, and sometimes I'd get killed by my own Arena lol. I suppose your mileage may vary, but mine sucked so... :eek:

@Hardcore
Yeah, obviously the Chalice wasn't aimed at me in particular but Legacy meta in general, lots of storm, delver etc. I was just hit by collateral damage you could say. Not freaking out about it, I just made a few minor adjustments such as replacing 1cc racks with ghasts and added ratchet bombs, trying to make sure that any answers addressed other concerns than Chalice, though I have my doubts about Ratchet Bomb being fast enough for elves even with Rituals. I like to keep the Needles against Countertop and Jaces and such. I would just side out my Tops. I like my Tops, but they really need thiers.

@beez

I have had no trouble with elves. I have found the trick is to kill key creatures, which is quite easy to do with contagion and dark blast.

What is your prioritized order for picking off elves w/ Darkblast?

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Originally Posted by beez

What is your prioritized order for picking off elves w/ Darkblast?

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Wirewood Symbiote
Deathrite Shaman (assuming going long)
Heritage Druid (short)
Quirion Ranger
Llanowar Elves

That creature that, in the situation, enables most mana usually.
It also depends on When you kill it. At his eot you can try kill a creature that let him do tricks; like Ranger and symbiote.

Deathrite Shaman is not a key card and I would target it last.

Thanks guys. I haven't played Elves since they had their recent 'revamp'.

What's all this talk about killing elves?
There's 2 guarunteed ways to deal with elves.

Budget solution:
Infest + Engineered Plague + Spinning Darkness for Lords. I've fought the elf matchup too many damn times since one of my best friends plays this archetype to death. Not the 'pure elf' but more of a hybrid deck that ramps into non-elves to protect himself slightly from Plague... It's somewhat effective but then that's when I put more money into Pox and got...

$uper $olution:
Cursed Scroll + Perish. He plays Mono Green. :tongue: Even runs Great Sable Stag as a bare minimum way to stop getting punched in the face by my Nether Spirit. Too bad Pox don't care about anything save Tajuru, :laugh: or Sigarda :eek:

If neither of these works, something is terribly wrong. Darkblast feels too weak when you could just play a single Engineered Plague, name elves, and be done with it. I'd rather dredge Dakmor Salvage after Poxing like a madman.

You don't want to start kill elves until turn three?

You also recommend the slow cursed scroll, and dissing Dark Blast which is nonsense; it kills key creatures at instant speed. And you can get it back if you need it.

Perish is fine, but you really want it in you starting hand because all the elves on the other side of the table when you play your third land. This suggest you will mulligan until you to get perish. Hardly ideal. It speaks of desperation.

Perish, Darkblast, Dystopia, Engineered Plague, Infest, Diabolic Edict, hell, even Deathmark. I can see advantages and disadvantages to each of these. I just don't know what should get the sideboard slots to be of the widest use vs the widest number of creature decks. Elves and Maverick are a couple of the worst offenders and use green and white. But not all are GW or tribal, so I am not sure. Honestly, I usually lean to boarding in extra edicts, cause even if they sac the less useful creature it is one less to protect the one you really want from Pox or Lilliana effects. Infest isn't bad either, particularly since I started using Rituals again. But I'm just not satisfied enough with any of them to not keep questioning it.

Perish will kill mongoose and other hard-to-remove creatures. As a mass removal it is also fine.
My objection is that it is more of an adjunct to a good cheap targeted removal, rather than the other way round.

Great Sable Stag!! When you have them playing that you know you have them scared. Next he will be playing Dawntreader Elk!! LOL!

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

You don't want to start kill elves until turn three?

You also recommend the slow cursed scroll, and dissing Dark Blast which is nonsense; it kills key creatures at instant speed. And you can get it back if you need it.

Perish is fine, but you really want it in you starting hand because all the elves on the other side of the table when you play your third land. This suggest you will mulligan until you to get perish. Hardly ideal. It speaks of desperation.

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Darkblast costs a draw. In any case, our decks are fundamentally different. I run metric tons of disruption and less threats. I kill elves turn 1. Innocent Blood & Dark Rituals help. Turn 2 is Smallpoxes. I also run a heavy LD suite. Unlike your deck which runs lots of creatures that hop into and out of the yard, I can't really afford to dredge away anything really.

Cursed Scroll is slow? Nothing locks out tribals from playing better than the scroll. I run 7 Pox effects and Liliana, I can get the scroll online by turn 4 after I've shredded their hand and Poxed / Sinkholed their board. Spinning Darkness > Darkblast. Gaining life and killing a Lord (for free ^_^) fighting an Aggro deck is superior than -1 toughness to a weenie. Of course, you could run both, but you run the risk of Spinning your Darkblast away. If you can't get 3 black spells into your graveyard by turn 2-3, your poxing too slow lol. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by beez

Great Sable Stag!! When you have them playing that you know you have them scared. Next he will be playing Dawntreader Elk!! LOL!

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His meta somewhat dislikes the stag. He deals with some MUC and Suicide Black and a few other control heavy colors. Luckily, I'm the only black deck that laughs it off. I disrupt too damn fast using Sinkholes and Hymns and Innocent Bloods. Technically speaking, I believe in Reid Duke's old deck from yesteryear. I took his old shell and updated my sideboard to my meta. I suppose now the shells on the fence are:

Aggro Pox: more creatures, less disruption
vs.
Control Pox: the old form archetype, almost creatureless, EXtremely fast disrupts costing < CMC 3.

I used to be an Aggro Poxer like Hardcore, then I took an arrow in the knee. Losing threats to your own Poxes and allowing your opponent to play their game by using less disruption didn't turn out well for me. Also, going aggro allows your opponent's removal to work. Only Exiling scares me as a removal option. I'll post my deck list later, I can't remember it sitting at my work desk :cool:

I ran a more traditional Pox deck last spring, before I decided to go my own way. So I know well how that kind works, too. The problem was the usual; to get enough killing and enough disruption to win quickly.

As for Dark Blast; NO you do not lose a draw.

Second, the idea that you can not afford to dredge is only true if you play enlightened tutor at opponents end step.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I ran a more traditional Pox deck last spring, before I decided to go my own way. So I know well how that kind works, too. The problem was the usual; to get enough killing and enough disruption to win quickly.

As for Dark Blast; NO you do not lose a draw.

Second, the idea that you can not afford to dredge is only true if you play enlightened tutor at opponents end step.

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Completely and totally false. During a BG test with Life from the Loam, I kept dredging away critical disruption cards to recover from my Poxes. I suppose Darkblast has the advantage in that you're guarunteed a weenie kill but losing a Pox effect, Liliana, land etc., I found top decking what I needed more effective than dredging something narrow. If only Smallpox could be dredged... 0_0

Otherwise, dredging away doesn't work with my deck build. Speaking of which...

Spells (36)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Spinning Darkness
3 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Trinisphere

Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit

Land (24)
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
12 Snow-covered Swamp

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tainted Aether
2 Perish
2 Spinning Darkness

The reason I dislike Darkblast ultimately is that Cursed Scroll and Liliana just do a better job without sacrificing my top decked disruption/land. Thus far, none of my attempts at an aggro Pox, BG or B have worked, and very few people in the bigger tournaments if any managed a threat-heavy Pox. In the original thread, it's been said that for this deck to do well, 8-10 threats are all you'd have space for and I think it still holds true even today.

2 of these threats put your opponent on a 5 turn clock and these threats are almost impossible to deal with when you take the deck's total disruption into account. (I never bring back Nether Spirit/animate Factory until Liliana/Hymn drives my opponent hellbent) Since I run 3 Poxes, my clocks are actually more on the 3-4 turn speeds.

It was interesting to see your sideboard. What do you take out/put in for certain matchups? Are two Pithing Needles enough for the Countertop matchup? I have been flirting with using a Tainted Aether for a while as well, good to see you still like that. Maybe I will give it a try sometime.

What are your main Ratchet Bomb targets? Do you use Perish in any other matchup than elves? Is it really worth it if a deck only runs half green creatures like Maverick?

It looks like you run a lot of Spinning Darkness which could really be great in many matchups, though I guess you still have to pox the shamans and Bobs. Is part of the plan to exile the extra Nether Spirit if you draw the second? Though I guess there could be the occasion youhave one in play and the other one comes in on the upkeep. Seems like it could be tricky to time the Spinning Darkness correctly. Plays less well with Bloodghasts I suppose. One of the disadvantages of them.

Our decks are very similar and I suppose one could say traditional, but I am still experimenting with the Top, Dakmore Salvage, Bloodghast, Cruciable of Worlds engine/package/beatdown plan. It's graveyard reliance makes me a bit nervous, though. I love pitching Ghasts rather than 'Business' and casting two pox effects rather than pitching one to the other. But who knows maybe I'll come back to Jesus one day and just Entomb the Spirts for good measure, Spinning darkness away an extra copy and put the Spirit blocks and beats right from the start.

@omnistrata,

Technically speaking; Dredging do nothing more than reduce the number of cards remaining in your library. Also while you bemoan the potential loss of cards, it is equally possible dredging will let you reach them sooner by putting less valuable care into the graveyard.

That's why I like Sensei's Divining Top. I know what I am going to get and when, and can still do the emergency shuffle away with Salvage on occasion.

Yeah, SDT is nice, but probably better in your deck than mine.