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I haven't been on Stax for the last few weeks, but I am glad to see its still loved. Mindstone rubs me the wrong way. I dislike it. The advantage of Grim was that sometimes you got to 3 mana on turn one. That's really the whole point in running it. If I was looking to cut them (And I am) I would not seek a bad alternative, I would look at how I can adapt my new slots.
Personally, I like Walkers. I am looking at a Walker build right now, but I think that will end up closer to Affinity than Stax.
Did some thinking, trying to write up a sideboard plan for my current stax build so that I can loan out the deck to people and give them some help. Was hoping to receive some harsh criticism.
Note that all of the below is a bit theory-crafty, and are more guidelines than rules.
General: abrupt decay and discard are good vs stax, ie you lose to jund and nic fit. In mulligans, you want a hand with action; slow hands are not good unless you know what you’re against. You will mulligan away a lot of hands that don’t have enough mana to get down to business.
Miracles:
-4 Trinisphere
-3 Walking Ballista
-1 Gods’ Eye
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Revoker
+2 Defense Grid
(tricky) Chalice them, Hide behind a bridge, Revoke things, try to out-grind them
Want Metalworkers+Moxen in case of Back to basics/Ruination
Need Ballista in case of blood moon as win conditition + good against Jace
Be careful with Cloister, they often main a Wear//Tear, otherwise is good in the matchup
Delver (grixis):
-3 Smokestack
-2 Cloister
-1 Gods’ Eye
+3 Defense Grid
+1 Powder Keg
+2 Welding Jar
(medium) Win the die roll. Chalice and Trinisphere. Play around daze. Deathrite shaman and Percy get around bridge. They bring in ancient grudge. Ballista is decent.
Infect:
-3 Crucible
-3 Smokestack
+1 Powder Keg
+3 Defense Grid
+2 Pithing Needle (Inkmoth)
(swingy) mull aggressively to a hand with action. Lots of live cards, but they are slippery; need bridge down to 0 (cloister helps), they can kill turn 3 through a chalice, winning the die roll is huge. If you don’t have a chalice on 1 be aware of crop rotation in response to ballista or wasteland. Play around daze if able
True-Name BUG (the Reid Duke special):
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Welding Jar
(Hard) Get ready to grind. Bridge is good. If they run out of abrupt decays, needle is on Jace/DRS and you have a bridge, you win.
Lands:
-4 Trinisphere
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Welding Jar (depends)
(Easy) Game 1 they lose to bridge+chalice. Chalice on 1 can stop a lot of their good hands. Post board they usually have k-grip; note that you cannot weld in response to it. Consider keeping a 3ball or bringing in grids to stop their rotations during your turn.
Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice
-2 Trinisphere
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Revoker
(easy) Resolve bridge. Needle on ratchet bomb post board. Their outs main are endbringer and sometimes ulamog; wasteland wrecks them.
Reanimator:
-3 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+3 Grafdigger’s Cage
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (griselbrand, petals/moxen if in play)
(+2 Jar if you see bayou/scrubland)
(weird/easy) Chalice, Trinisphere, Bridge can all stop them from playing magic. Matchup is a race to see who can cause the most non-magic. Smokestacks is good for killing fatties.
Sneak and Show:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-4 Ballista
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Jace, Petal)
+3 Defense Grid
+2 Needle
(weird/easy) Bridge is king in this matchup. Do not rely on chalice or trinisphere, but do keep them in. Be wary of moon, jace, and artifact destruction. Similar to reanimator matchup.
If they Show and Tell, what you put in is situational; it’s a unique puzzle every time. Be aware that Fair in response to Show can win the game. Also be aware that needle/revoker off of show can name what they play and they won't be able to respond.
Elves:
-3 Crucible
-3 Smokestack
-2 Cloister
-1 Gods’ Eye
-1 Trinisphere
+4 Revoker
+3 Grafdigger’s
+2 Jar
+1 Powder Keg
(very hard) Beware the rec sage. Especially beware the symbiote->rec sage loop. Games end up becoming quite grindy, until one player gets blown out.
Aggro Loam:
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
(very hard)
Hey look we're famous: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ch-stax-legacy :cool:
Seems that you've made changes compared to the list posted before. Out of interest, could you link the new 75?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
I agree with most of the things you are stating. It seems that you like to take in the Phyrexian Revokers in a lot of matchups, have you considered playing them in the maindeck?
Hello all:
Long time enthusiast for smokestack but I've never really sleeved up a committed smokestack deck. I've only ever "splashed" it in decks like lands or Mud circa 2015.
I was drawing up a list recently and was pleased to see that it was very similar to many lists on here :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghirapur Orrery
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Walking Ballistic
1 Trading Post
1 Staff of Domination
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Inventor's Fair
3 Buried Ruin
1 Drownyard Temple
1 God's Eye, Gate of the Reikai
=25
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tormods Crypt or Surgical
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Welding jar
Defense grid
Warping Wail
Obviously I'm still working out the numbers. I'm also curious how much we need cards like Warping Wail or Dismember or if Ensnaring Bridge, ratchet bomb and smokestack do the job.
I think we should all strongly consider Ghirapur Orrery and insist on trying to break it because, even though it has some nonbo aspects, it really can be something we use to our advantage.
In general I feel like Smokestack and Ratchet Bomb does the job. If you're in a local field with a lot of Deathrite Shamans, perhaps playing more Warping Wails could be worth it, but I like playing cards like Phyrexian Revoker or even very specific sideboard cards like Cursed Totem instead. Most of what you care about to remove with Warping Wail you can lock down with these other options as well. The other modes of Warping Wail have not shined that much. Unless it's countering something like a Maelstrom Pulse or an Infernal Tutor, the card has not done much for me other than exiling Deathrite Shamans or Stoneforge Mystics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
I also have a question regarding your list. Why are you playing the Staff of Domination without the Metalworkers?
List should be same with edits posted at the end of the post a weekish ago. This:Quote:
Originally Posted by beardstorm
-25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Inventors Fair
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Gods’ Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
-Mana
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
-Lock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
-Grind
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Ratchet Bomb
-Win
4 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination
Side:
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Powder Keg
3 Defense Grid
2 Welding Jar
Played it friday night again, and I do agree with the observation that Revoker comes in a lot. Cards that I was less than impressed with were the keg, bomb, and to some degree the smokestacks... I may consider moving a bomb back to the side, dropping keg, and perhaps run a few revoker main. Some fiddling is in order.
In all honesty, ballista made me think of being more aggressive in general, though I might just play thalia stompy for a bit to satisfy that itch. Curious to see DiceBox's affinity-ish build he mentioned.
It seems to me that you have some matchups where you need to keep the Bombs, but you also need to take in permanents with converted mana cost 1 and 2 (Pithing Needle and Revokers, mainly), which works a little bit against you (say for example against DNT or Maverick).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
In what matchups have you found that Smokestack is less impressive?
Well, I'm definitely not a fan of metalworker in this deck. It's not mud and we aren't dropping any bombs to make it worth it. Staff of Domination is certainly less appealing but I do think that is still acts as a planeswalker and card advantage and a prison piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by beardstorm
I like Orrery a lot. Seems like we will empty our hands easier than most.
Stacks: basically any deck that doesn't run abrupt decay; in retrospect, I managed to dodge all the abrupt decay decks; decks without abrupt decay tend to just scoop to lock pieces, and it's a game to get those out, rather than grind them off of permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by beardstorm
I'll have to test bombs in/out of board, if I have time. The list overall feels pretty solid and consistent, needs some tuning.
Which reminds me, I also hit a bunch of matchups where ghost quarter was less than stellar; I'm not sure how much better other lands would be, should give it a run.
(with a foggy brain, barachai doth reply)
Regarding Abrupt Decay, do you feel that Welding Jar does the job or is there just too much removal going around? Perhaps this certain event is not the best to draw conclusions from, but what's your thoughts about it in general? Also, have you tried playing with Spellskite?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
I have found that playing some fine one-ofs is usually fine. Cards like Karakas and Horizon Canopy does the trick, but you could also try out stuff like Drownyard Temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
The lifeloss of spellskite has always worried me off of running it; between ancient tomb and my opponent, it's not uncommon to stabilize at 1-3 life. This is aside from Welding Jar being phenomenal with Ensnaring Bridge with it's CMC-0 (As a cool observation, with 4 ballistae and 4 chalices, you can often dump hand with remarkable speed, faster than you're opponent might expect; this won me a game vs infect).Quote:
Originally Posted by beardstorm
Upping the Buried Ruin count to 4 might be correct, now that I think about it. I still like Welding Jar, so long as we're colorless; the main problem is following up with something relevant, and not dying to the second abrupt decay or whatever. More buried ruin would probably help in that regard.
It would actually be hilarious to splash blue for Padeem, though that'd be a totally different deck methinks.
What I like about Spellskite is the double duty it carries against burn while also blocking the things that might slip under the Bridge. I don't run the bigger mana variants, or Bottled Cloister, so having the early blocker might help.
We are getting more coverage!!: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ew-legacy-stax
Got a top16 on a 100 players event and a top4 in a small 25 ppl event with my stax list
// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghirapur Orrery
3 Bottled Cloister
1 Trading Post
// 4 Creature
4 Metalworker
// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple
3 Inventors' Fair
// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Coercive Portal
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
Is there a way to win a game against infect?
Maze of Ith?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
In order to be useful you have to play it as a 3/4 of in the md, and the card seems pretty useless in any other situation, or at least worse than any card I have in my MD :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Still, I never tested it, is it useful?
What would you cut to make room for it?
Aside from T1 Trinisphere, Bridge+Cloister is basically a lock, game 1 at least (I run two cloister partially to beat infect)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
I also have been running 4 Walking Ballistae, and have not been disappointed by its capacity for death. Will note that I have one at least one game against infect by resolving a bridge, then dumping chalices and ballistae for x=0.
Note that Powder Keg is significantly better than Bomb in this one instance, and is one of several reasons I like to run a split.
Between Bridge+cloister, Bombs, Ballistae, and them not really liking chalice or trinisphere, I can't say I've had too much trouble with infect. They can sometimes slip under you of course, but that's a feature of infect generally.
I'll probably remember more stuff next time I run into the local infect guy.
Often times, in spite of me locking their infect creatures, our clock is slow enought that they can just kill us with an OTK with a noble hierarchQuote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
Usually if i've had a bridge/cloister out, I've also resolved a trinisphere or chalice; retrospectively, one of those was usually involved in a victory along with the bridge lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Will reiterate that 4 walking ballistae has made the infect matchup much simpler. Kinda making me want to play stax now, will have to see if local infect guy is up for some matches.
For reference, this is the list I'm currently looking at:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Buried Ruin
4 Inventors' Fair
3 Mishra's Factory
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
1 Staff of Domination
4 Walking Ballistae
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister
SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
Couple things broadly I've wanted to try in the above list; first, split of revokers in the main, as it was noted that they come in a lot. Might go back to being bombs. Second, need Lodestone Golem for combo decks, as an outright clock is needed to end the game before they can break out of the lock. Grafdigger's Cage is a concession to Elves, which is still a shit matchup with ballista. Been especially wanting to test the elves matchup.