[Deck] Aluren

Hi. I'm new to these threads, but used to play aluren in the extended PTQs, and remember the fond joy of the life matchup... ;-)

I've not been playing for some time, but hope to make a legacy event in a couple of weeks in London. I have been fiddling with an aluren build which has evolved from Pat Chappin's, but with a much more anti-control / anti-aggro control build. It therefore surrenders ground on the pure aggro matchups. In addition I have always felt concerned by the disproportionate number of 2 and 3 drops in aluren builds, so have slimmed down the mana costs significantly. The result, which appears fairly solid in testing is as follows. I don't promise that this is perfect, but it certainly represents a different approach with a more 'type 1 combo' feel (i.e. brainstorms, ponders, and disruption):

3 force of will
4 brainstrom
3 ponder
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy

4 wall of roots

4 imperial recruiter
1 dream stalker
1 cavern harpy
1 spike feeder
1 etched oracle
2 eternal witness

2 CoV / EE / githu slinger / stern proctor

4 aluren

2 bayou
3 tropical island
1 taiga
1 volcanic island
1 underground sea
2 forest
2 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills

You'll see that I have cut the combo as hard as possible, although maintained the instant kill with etched oracle. It can be disrupted, but only with STP or two burn spells sufficient to kill a dream stalker. With the disruption in the deck that normally seems rare. I'd probably have 1 dream stalker in the side for matchups where this is a problem.

There are lots of 3s rather than 4s. That is because I'd prefer 4 thoughtseize 2 therapy in the abstract, but the intuition for 3 therapy is too powerful not to be able to do. 3 FoW simply because the deck struggles on card advantage, and can dig like mad, and seems OK in testing. I acknowledge that this may be wrong though. Finally I can't fit in the 4th ponder.

Sideboard is still up for grabs, but certainly 4 leyline of the void, 2 other any graveyard cards, deeds / E.E. and 1 rishadan cutpurse.

I can't say I know enough to enter into the long standing familiar or recruiter debate, although I like the streamlined recruiter build personally, especially for this more anti-control build.

I do, however, cry on the inside when I see builds with many 3 drops and only 18 lands, as I my testing I found that many games with my earlier builds turned upon mana control - in particular against some landstill builds, 42 land (a surprisingly good deck when properly pilotted and not to be dismissed), black decks (always a horror) and good goblin builds. Even with my brainstorm / ponder package I still think 21 is low as you are aiming for 4 or even 5 mana in play.

Anyway, all comments appreciated.

Oh - sorry I missed 3 intuition out of that list.

I'll be honest, though I'm sure many disagree with me, the biggest weakness of your deck, is the reliance on Imperial Recruiter. Yes it streamlines the combo, but the problem is, recruiter is a bad card until Aluren hits the table. And when Aluren hits the table, the deck was already winning, even before people started using Imperial Recruiters. I had tested imperial recruiters for a year before the innovator stumbled upon it, and I came to the same conclusion that Toad came too, quite a bit of time before I did : Imperial Recruiter is not good for Aluren. For one thing, you have to splash red, and the mana base gets horrible when you do that. Far too suseptable to land hate. I also notice that people seem to think that they don't need raven familiar, but it is far too good in aluren to not run familiars. For one thing they have evation for when you need to go the beatdown route (and even if you are running the combo ver. of aluren, there will be times when you have to go beatdown).


My suggestion is, take your ver. and run it against a gauntlet of your hardest matchups. Then take the recruiters out, put more harpies and the raven familiars back in, and run the same gauntlet. I'd be willing to bet that in the end, the non-recruiter ver. would fair better.

Also, I would suggest replacing the oracle with wall of blossoms. No walls don't get your land into play, but they live a lot longer against aggro decks like goblins.

For a good list, I would suggest searching the forums for Toads latest suggested build. He's considered the expert for most aluren decks. Though he doesn't like the combo ver. I would think taking his build and alering it slightly for the combo win would not be difficult.

saying that recruiter is bad is a little misleading. It is quite good in the deck, but not the way that you have been testing. First of all, the deck he proposed doesnt play living wish (i guess you could play like eladamris call if you didn't like the wish.) so instead of having 7 recruiters you have 4, so yes i would say his build is worse then a good familiar harpy version, but his version is not tuned. Second who said you have to play red? I agree it messes up the mana base and is uneeded.

These are the props I see to Familiar/Harpy:
*Supports FOW better
*More subpar creatures to sac to cabal therapy
*cheaper

Slops
*Have to draw three different cards to basically win while recruiter needs only 2 and so less likely to be able to go off turn 3-4
*Living Wish is excessive so usually not played (could be played but usually isnt) so no tool box

Props of recruiter:
*Faster
*More redundant
*Can support living wish easier for toolbox
*ONly need two cards in hand to win- More god hands exist where you win as long as they don't kill you before your third turn.

Slops
*Less blue cards to pitch to force
*less shitty creatures to sac to cabal therapy



I personally feel that the non-recruiter version is better vs combo decks because it can support FOW while recruiter version is better vs anything that wont kill you on turn 1-2 because recruiter version can be better vs. hate like discard, and counter spells, while the harpy/familiar version is better at disrupting other people's strategies.

Familiars also provide more draw pre-aluren, recruiters do not. I do not see how recruiter is better vs. hate. Aluren did not have any serious issues with targeted creature hate without recruiter. At least with myself and other experienced players I know of. Recruiter does not help dig, like familiars do, when you have, for example, a pithing needle or meddling mage on board. It does not help you dig for a much needed therapy or force of will. Recruiter really does virtually nothing for the deck, except allow you to run fewer harpies. When I was playing with the recruiter ver. I actually found myself trying to fit the familiars back in, so I could have more draw for answers against the hate.

The reason I used the blanket statement that recruiter is bad, is because it does nothing but stream-line the combo. A combo that is slower than most other combo decks. It does not help the control plan, you can't use it like you can a familiar to dig for answers pre-aluren and when aluren is on the table.

I suppose listing my reasons is ultimately fruitless, because I doubt it will change anyones opinion. Just be assured that a decent number of players, beyond myself, who have been playing aluren for several years, agree with me when I say recruiter is bad. Aluren is a combo-control deck, and recruiter while stream-lining the combo, adds no help to the control side.

u have some valid points, but imperial recruiter combo can get around hate because first of all, naming pithing needle on harpy (or anything for that matter) is useless after sideboard or if you run a viridian shaman or stern proctor mainboard, you can just combo off, and get rid of the needle mid combo. Second imperial recruiter is better vs discard because it is then a two card combo, when drawing off the top after they get rid of your hand is crucial.

Im not saying that recruiter is better, but im saying that recruiter and harpy/fam have different qualities that are better in different situations, recruiter isnt strictly worse,

I'm not experienced with Aluren, but from an outsider's perspective, the advantage of Recruiter is that it turns Aluren from a more-card combo into a two-card combo. Two specific cards are much easier to find and protect than more than two specific cards.

I've faced a Needle naming "harpy" many times, and once aluren+rec. hits the table, I win. No need to dig with a familiar and bounce bounce bounce. Once you have familiar + harpy you easily dig many times and get solutions too, but I need one less card, and use Stern proctor MD (I used to pack a Harmonic sliver before), Needles are useless if they name harpy, but if they name, e.g: spike feeder..... it's much worse for them :)

The most disgusting thing is a Trinisphere, or maybe a Chalice set at 2, but hey... guess what, instead of X slots divided amongst harpies and familiars, I added Recruiters and bouncers, blue pitchable cards. I may have lost 4 pitchable cards, but if we use cards only thinking about pitching them... maybe this is not the way....

I agree with those who say Rec. is bad card pre-aluren, because it does nothing like drawing, digging, okay! but instead, you can balance its weakness using those free slots it gave to you! The familiar+harpy version offers variety, but you pay a price. This happens too with the other version, it's high time we distinguish between the controlish raven familiar version and the bit-more-aggresive Recruiter version.

I'm giving a try to a hybrid MD:
3x Imperial R.
2x Cavern Harpy
2x Raven Familiar
2x CoV

Familiars are nice, really! but having multiple choices is good too, I would never get rid of my Recs. right now, cannot say in the future....

Sometimes I think people just criticise Rec. just because they are (unfairly) expensive. If Rec. are bad, time will tell.... they will not hold for much time if economy laws rule...if nobody wants them, they will go down for sure...

This is only an opinion, still would like to test familiar-heavy versions and many choices....

would u have a list that you would like to share? fow in rec seems good.

Hey, of course!
I'm still improving the deck, as I need more testing, my latest build, which I'm taking to a tournament this very Sunday:

Imperial Aluren

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

I finally changed Auriok+Maggot for a Spike Feeder, I see the point in it, so thanks to those Spike feeder supporters, it frees a slot in the deck and works okay. About Harmonic Sliver vs Stern Proctor MD, how often is a Chalice set at 2? I played some games against a White Stax and the guy really put me into trouble with that Chalice@2, luckily, we have Chains of Vapor...

As you can see, there are 20 blue cards, I added a second harpy because sometimes I had to pitch the only one I had... Maybe this hybrid or Rec. version is a little more aggro than the familiar raven one, so maybe our FoWs should be used only for emergency situations or just to protect the Aluren. I have found that once Aluren hits the table, you're almost on the win. The Rec. thing is almost unstoppable (ok, krosan grip is a pain in the *ss), since many times you have a Rec in hand and thus you only need to drop the enchantment...

I also have some doubts about City of Traitors, it gives a nice boost for a 3rd turn aluren or a second turn play: 1st turn forest, turn, city, wall of roots + wall/wish, but apart from that, it's the "never want to draw this" card, especialy mid/late game.

Comments, suggestions, changes,help and techs all welcome!

One thing you could consider with the recruiter build is expanding the silver bullet options - which is a point that I think is an advantage often overlooked by many non-recruiter build players. Recruiter can find, for example, etched oracle (4/4 plus potential ancestral, if your mana base survives... plus enables the instant kill, although I am not sure how important this really is unless facing brain freeze), duplicant, triskelion (which also allows the instant kill). The latter two in particular taking out troublesome tarmogoyfs. These are top heavy in terms of casting cost, not blue cards so not pitchable to FoW, and I am definitely not saying that this is optimal, but rather put it forward as something to consider.

I agree with your comments on city of traitors. In my experience they are occasionally great, but often horrible. I have tried a more rock-like black heavy build, which used sensei's divining tops and ancient tomb, which was in fact surprisingly good, save for the inevitable loss of FoW protection in the very early game, which finally ruled it out.

Just one question on CoV generally. I often see people playing just one - do they not have problems finding it when needed, as it is not tutorable like, say, stern proctor?

Even if you're playing the Imperial Recruiter version, Tarmogoyf is huge in this deck. He gives you an alternate means to win, and often while people are spending time killing Tarmogoyf, you're winning with Aluren.

There's virtually no reason I can fathom to play the non-Recruiter version basically ever.

And also, SDT is hot in Aluren. Try it out.

yea, tarmogoyf is really good, thresh and gobs can beat down on you while you try to get your pieces, but goyf halts that pretty good.

The wish sideboard seems like it could be expanded, especially a viridian shaman, but i would move proctor to side and main a shaman if possible, if you are worried about chalice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

And also, SDT is hot in Aluren. Try it out.

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The problem I had with it in testing is that I seldom had mana to spin it. I find Ponder strictly better as it digs deeper, shuffles crap away and is more mana efficient. Out of curiosity, what did you cut for SDT?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

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For starters, Wall of Blossoms for the most part isn't as good as Wall of Roots. The latter gives you more potential for a turn 3 Aluren which is good against decks not running Force of Will (additionally, you'd be surprised the number of times people will play Daze completely forgetting that it makes the last mana to push Aluren through). Additionally, Goyf is a 4/5 about 75% of the time or so (Instant, Sorcery, Land, and either creature or Enchantment), so the 1 extra point of toughness is good (a lot of decks running Goyf also happen to be running Force of Will, so here speed isn't the key, but rather not dying to Goyf, Wall of Roots forces them to blow a Swords to Plowshares or find another Goyf to get around it, so it should almost always be a Time Walk or two against those decks).

Stern Proctor doesn't seem like a good maindeck card at all. I would rather have the 4th Force of Will. Additionally it seems like you should be able to squeeze 2 Ponders in somewhere.

Research/Development seems absolutely terrible. I would replace these with something like Viridian Zealot (ie, more Wish targets that do what you wanted Stern Proctor to do).

Actually I'm thinking about the Tarmogoyf issue, wall vs Tarmo... The only point that I would miss from the walls would be the mana fixing, it's too cool!

About Wall of Blossoms, i have cut it, since I have added raven familiars, i need the wall no more, i just use the familiar once i'm going off, digging and getting only what I need, without drawing too many cards. Moreover I get a free slot.. If I added Tarmogoyfs... what should I take out? Walls? Instead of blocking I'd be attacking, wich is cool, since it can be a "B" Plan, i still have to test....

Some of you suggest SDT and Ponder but the point with brainstorms, is that I can hide cards from disgusting duresses or thoughtseizes... ponder does not... and as Vetinari said, it's hard to arrange mana enough to use and abuse it.

The 4th FoW cannot be included, There is almost no more room, and we have not so many blue cards.. i find 3 are okay, since we are not planning to be FoWing and pitching cards, IMHO.

The anti-artifact card, Harmonic Sliver, Stern Proctor, Viridian Shaman is included MD just to laugh at pithing needle (if they drop 2, begin to prey instead), I had some doubts between 2 chain of vapor or 1 chain and 1 echoing truth...but finally included 2 chain and the Stern, but maybe I'll change for a Viridian Shaman, it's not blue but hardcastable, and skips trinispheres and chalices@2. Viridian Zealot.... i cannot afford drop him and pay, 4 mana...it can force me to give a turn and if they are packing hate, giving a turn means giving another chance to drop more hate....

The sideboard is the product of a changing mind. I added the R/D because of nasty extirpates. If they manage to take it from your hand into your grave...
BEB are added because of my local meta, where you can find a couple of slighs, Dragon Stompy, Aggroloam....I would cut it but what can i get into the SB? Pernicious deed are a must, since they sweep for good and duress.. what if I took them out and added Extirpates?

Comments welcome! Thanx!

i have found deeds to be too slow vs aggro decks like aggroloam to be effective, and why in the world would you want extirpate?

Because it ends many annoyances like recurring Wastelands and Glacial Chasms, their Extirpates and so on. Remember we are running discard witch makes Extirpate even more potent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

Hey, of course!
I'm still improving the deck, as I need more testing, my latest build, which I'm taking to a tournament this very Sunday:

Imperial Aluren

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

I finally changed Auriok+Maggot for a Spike Feeder, I see the point in it, so thanks to those Spike feeder supporters, it frees a slot in the deck and works okay. About Harmonic Sliver vs Stern Proctor MD, how often is a Chalice set at 2? I played some games against a White Stax and the guy really put me into trouble with that Chalice@2, luckily, we have Chains of Vapor...

As you can see, there are 20 blue cards, I added a second harpy because sometimes I had to pitch the only one I had... Maybe this hybrid or Rec. version is a little more aggro than the familiar raven one, so maybe our FoWs should be used only for emergency situations or just to protect the Aluren. I have found that once Aluren hits the table, you're almost on the win. The Rec. thing is almost unstoppable (ok, krosan grip is a pain in the *ss), since many times you have a Rec in hand and thus you only need to drop the enchantment...

I also have some doubts about City of Traitors, it gives a nice boost for a 3rd turn aluren or a second turn play: 1st turn forest, turn, city, wall of roots + wall/wish, but apart from that, it's the "never want to draw this" card, especialy mid/late game.

Comments, suggestions, changes,help and techs all welcome!

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can someone explain to me how this deck actually wins the game? i see how you gain infi life, draw your whole deck, and get infi mana but how do you actually get a win out of the combo? are you making a creature super big with spike feeder and then attacking? if thats the case, why give them an extra turn, as you probably won't have a creature that has been in play since the previous turn. i know the list i used to play in extended used maggot carrier, which i agree is pretty poor, but its better than just not playing a win condition at all.

also, someone else posted how etched oracle is a instant speed win, and i just don't see it happening in the list they presented. what am i overlooking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben Lundquist

can someone explain to me how this deck actually wins the game? i see how you gain infi life, draw your whole deck, and get infi mana but how do you actually get a win out of the combo?

also, someone else posted how etched oracle is a instant speed win, and i just don't see it happening in the list they presented. what am i overlooking?

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Spike Feeder makes all your creatures very large, then you fill your hand with Force of Wills before passing the turn.