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KobeBryan, Because most of the questions you ask can be found in the opening post, you do not provide nearly enough details for people to actually help you in the bant matchup, and a couple of posts back you are telling other people what is correct and what is not correct when you obviously do not have much of a clue when playing this deck.
Kobebryan. Yes, Lejay can have the charm and empathy of a bulldozer, but I would try to ignore that and check if there is some good advise in there. In this case he has a point.
With your brother playing one decent deck and you many different ones shows that he probably masters his and you have lack of experience/practice in what you try out. My advice is:
- Stop playing against your brother if you can't handle losing or if you play just focus on the right play and learning don't "try to beat him". Maybe you can get your bro' to proxy up other decks to get more testing value. Competition hurts testing!
- Try to practice with other people and more variety of decks which also represent what the meta consists of.
- Focus on "mastering decks and magic" instead of "playing the best deck which wins by itself" (hint: there is no such thing).
Correct lets assume the opponent is playing an average amount of discard. 4 thoughtseize 4 hymn. To counteract those, post board you'll have 4 brainstorms 4 diverts, and even 4 FOW too if you really dont want to get hymned. Imagine that you'll draw your answer about as often as he draws his threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
worst case your opponent is playing 12 discard spells, duress thoughtseize and hymn, you'll still draw your answers as often as he draws his...12 threats for him, 12 answers for you. Most decks that play discard dont also play heavy counterpsells. Also if your opponent is playing more than 12 discard his deck probably isnt very good cause he'll try and win with the rack...
Maybe in "apple713land" brainstorm answers perfectly discard, fow has no drawback, and divert is always active, but in my experience brainstorm is not perfect at protecting when you need most of the time to gather a 3 card combo, fow is a pain against discard, and divert is useless turn 1 on the draw, is a tempo sink if you always keep it open, is weak as soon as opponent's turn 3, and is useless against duress.
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Originally Posted by Lejay
Damn, I'd best not use that silly little rhetorical technique called "hyperbole" in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Whoah, you're devoting 2 slots to the Emrakul plan without playing it main? Is that really an efficient use of sideboard space? Seems like just playing Emrakul main would be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
So comparing your and Lejay's list, it seems like you're on the plan of just playing through discard or countering it with Flusterstorm, and you've also dropped the Defense Grids. Has Canadian Thresh not been a concern? Or is Defense Grid too narrow / not good enough?
i really like your list and main deck but your deck is 100% dependant on cunning wish right? if they get extirpated or surgical'd its game over? i guess you really only need to worry about this game 2 but do you side in the emrakul g2 just for that reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I firmly believe that maindeck consistency is more important than sideboard slots. My maindeck is almost entirely 4-ofs/1ofs because I want to be as redundant as possible. The 1-ofs I play are absolutely required to make Cunning Wish more reliable (Intuition + Trickbind) and are powerful in and of themselves. (Think of Flusterstorm as Force of Will #4.) This helps a lot when facing discard. I haven't felt the need for Leyline of Sanctity (pretty much ever, you'll note that I haven't really posted many lists advocating it) because cantrips + redundancy has been enough. It's not as much of a cakewalk, but I still seem to win the games (and I am awarded 3 points for a win whether it was a cakewalk or hard fought grindy battle). As such, I devoted slots elsewhere. Countering discard isn't super effective (the only time you really want to do it is with Disrupt) since you're down a card anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
BTW, drawing Emrakul and Dream Halls is the worst feeling in the world. Drawing Emrakul with SnT isn't actually super awesome since half of the time you can't even protect your SnT due to Pact and are thus better off waiting until you can Omni + Enter/Wish anyway. In the matchups where you actually need Emrakul, you can side it in (against surgical/extirpate, counterbalance (it makes it a lot easier than needing trickbind + stack knowledge, and it can beat more than 1 counterbalance), and hatebears). In all of those other matchups, he's not a dead draw. If you need to beat some random scenario where your opponent has 4 split second removal spells (i.e. casting 3 discard spells won't win the game), you can even stack Emrakul in your R&D pile to make them sac 6 then wipe away your Dream Halls so they can't cast the split second before casting Lab Man (admittedly, this is the slimmest of the corner cases).
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Canadian Thresh is easier for me with Fluster+Duress/Seize than it is for you with Defense Grid. You (as a player playing Defense Grid) will flat out lose a lot of games because your opponent casts Flusterstorm. This is true whether they pay 4 for Flusterstorm or whether you never even resolve that Defense Grid. The deck is incredibly weak to Flusterstorm and needs to compensate for that with some combination of Xantid Swarms, Silences, multiple Defense Grids, discard effects, or Flusterstorms of its own. I'm playing a basic swamp and siding in 3 discard spells to go with my maindeck Fluster and 4 Wish->Flusters to address this problem. I moved to Duress over Thoughtseize, which is much better vs UW and SnT mirror, so I'd be more likely to be able to cast the 2nd discard spell if I drew it against RUG/UR/UWR tempo without taking as much damage. You're likely just getting blown out by Flusterstorm.
Duress/Seize/Fluster happen to be a lot better against most of the decks you happen to have trouble with. The weakness it that I'm playing more fetches than most to find my Underground Sea (which is maindeck) and I'm playing a sideboarded Swamp (with 4 Deltas) so I can reliably cast discard early in the face of Wasteland. This is a tradeoff most people seem unwilling to make becaues they have "the Fear" (of being wastelanded when they don't need black). I can count on one hand the number of games I've lost, including testing, because my opponent Wastelanded my Underground Sea and I never recovered. I've lost count of the number of times Thoughtseize and Duress have KO'd other SnT decks, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Storm, and Can Thresh.
There is no fundamental difference in playing Emrakul+Call as a response to hate permanent-based hate (like Teeg/Thalia) with the idea of siding in Emrkaul than playing Echoing Truth + Sapphire Charm. Emrakul has uses in slightly more matchups and has some pros/cons against individual bounce spells, but it serves the same purpose.
The non-Lab Man lists are 95% dependent on Omniscience. If it gets extirpated/surgicaled/slaughter games'd their only out is finding a 1-of Emrakul and a 4-of Show and Tell. And then hoping after all that time that Emrakul, go is actually good enough.Quote:
but your deck is 100% dependant on cunning wish right? if they get extirpated or surgical'd its game over?
The only thing i commented on was the intuition in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin Gitaxias
I think everyone here believes that intuition in the side and wished from a cunning wish is ideal
I'm trying to playtest the shit outta the deck. I cannot suddenly become the best player overnight. Of course I'm going to run into problems and will ask people on the forums for help. But i can see that people in this thread don't really like to helpQuote:
Originally Posted by catmint
took 2nd/12 players today in a 5-rounder. lost r1 to deathblade, then won out against jund, BG pox, TES, and deathblade again. always drew (seems correct, you always want the cards), attempted to mulligan post-board to the leylines (I was initially reluctant to put them in the board, and never hit one, but didn't actually need 'em). took home a savannah.
I've been trying the lab man kill with a couple Lim-Dűl's Vault but have ditched the main deck intuition and gone to 10 islands, 1 emrakul, 1 trickbind, 3 dream halls with ants/Eladamri's call instead. the MD emrakul kill was crucial after both enter and show and tell were extirpated vs Pox. very happy with the board, though I was using 2 Defense Grid and kind of wanted a trickbind and wipe away in the board (the latter instead of echoing truth). I have more discard than counter magic in my meta and am pondering a probe/therapy/Lim-Dűl's Vault build with an underground sea. 4 misdirection instead of 4 leyline is another possibility…
deck is sick. not as fun as tin fins, but it has a couple of nice lines. will stick with it for a bit.
(sidebar: one reason this deck hasn't taken over the meta we came up with over beers after the tournament was that the derpy type of show and tell player who WOULD play it doesn't want their expensive sneak attacks to rot in their binder)
How often do you guys wish for fireminds?
I see some people don't run impulse with fireminds, do you board in trickbind each time then?
They wish for it when it can win the game under a given scenario. If a list is running Firemind's Foresight and does not have a 2cc instant in the deck, they have misbuilt the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Thanks. I kept thinking that these guys are wasting the 2CMC.
What deck are u playing next weekend?
A bit surprising but I beat Sneak Show 4 times yesterday pre-board. This deck can beat a Griselbrand lol So many ways to fetch counter back up when going off that sometimes drawing 14 ain't enough. Of course he was the one who always show and tells 1st for Griselbrand, that might be the misplay.
@ Kobebryan, the reason people keep giving you grief is not because your questions are stupid, it's because they have already been answered in the OP. Also because you need to give more information and context.
As far as the bant matchup goes, it's not the best, but it's also not that common of the deck. Sounds like you testing is a little biased. Slamming defense grid is not always right. But even if it just buys you one turn, it's done it's job. There is really nothing you need to counter from them (except maybe JTMS if you are still looking for combo pieces and you're out of cantrips). So just eat a counterspell or pridemage with your grid and combo off. In all honestly, their best hand doesn't have a chance against your best hand. Pridemage + double force + hate bear + clock? Yea, that's pretty tough. But it usually doesn't happen that way.
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedogg
I was playing against my friends maverick deck yesterday. This guy is the luckiest guy in the world.
it was turn 3, he turn 1 EOT gets enlightened tutor for a ethersworn cannonist. Turn 2 drop ethersworn.
Turn 3, my turn, I slaughter pact the ethersworn. i go off with show and tell omniscience, this guy proceeds to drop a gaddock teeg. Pretty lucky hand.
Your friend was really lucky, but you should take into account the number of times you just killed him on turn 2 or 3 :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I've found that multiple hatebears - and multiple ways to find them through GSZ and E. Tutor - are pretty hard to beat, even more so than counterspells. Not to say hatebears put you in a clock and usually come with some numers of Pridemages together, which may not be a problem by themselves, but can make a bad situation worse.
I don't think there's a easy way to handle multiple hatebears - there's Sudden Spoiling, but it is only usefull with Omniscience, so it seems bad. Against Maverick, I either try to combo ASAP or using Dream Halls, in order to avoid them showing a Gaddock or Canonist.
@emidln: Just curious, but why are you running the 2/1 split of Duress/Thoughtseize in the board as opposed to just 3 Duresses? Since I assume you're not bringing in the Thoughtseize against hate bear decks anyways, wouldn't a 3rd Duress just be better?
Thoughtseize is more valuable against blue decks because you can hit VClique/Snapcaster Mage/Meddling Mage with it. I limit the number of Thoughtseizes to avoid shocking myself too much against RUG. I actually considered playing Therapy. I pretty much always know what my opponent is holding when I want to cast Therapy (or rather, what I need to not be in his hand), so it has a pretty high effectiveness for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I just recently finished this deck and tested it out at a GP Vegas Legacy event with about 200ish people. The deck was insanely good and led me to an X-1 finish. Unfortunately the tournament was just Swiss +1 so I ended up missing out on a shot at the Moat for first. The decklist I used was pretty standard, I have included it below for reference.
4x Show & Tell
4x Omniscience
4x Enter the Infinite
4x Dream Halls
4x Cunning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordian
3x Force of Will
3x Pact of Negation
1x Emrakul
1x Trickbind
1x Intuition
7x Fetches
8x Islands
4x City of Traitors
Sideboard:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Defense Grid
1x Force of Will
1x Pact of Negation
1x Eeladamri's Call
1x Echoing Truth
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Wipe Away
1x Firemind's Foresight
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Research/Development
In the tournament my only loss came to a UW Stoneforge list (No Countertop) playing flusterstorms in the main. Flusterstorm was very difficult to play around and defense grid was only a partial answer to it. I would like your input on some of the issues that came up during the tournament.
1. Play or Draw? Based on my limited testing and advice from others, I choose to draw in all unknown game 1's. As far as games 2 & 3 are concerned, I decided to play against combo (ANT and Elves) and anything with Chalice of the Void. After testing out the merfolk matchup, it seems right to play as well. What are your thoughts on this, and what other matches would you choose to play in?
2. Against decks where pact and leyline are both useless, such as D&T, what would you advocate bringing in for the pacts. I choose to bring in Echoing Truth, the fourth Force and left a pact in. Occasionally I found myself wanting a force in the wishboard to wish for. Any suggestions on the sideboarding for these matchups?
3. 4 Leylines vs 2 flusterstorm 1 defense grid 1 misdirection? After playing against flusterstorm the other option seems more reasonable. the flusterstorms and misdirection help out against discard and are also useful in other matchups. They are also better when drawn beyond turn 1. How necessary do you think the leylines are in an unknown meta?
I can tell u one thing...you need an intuition in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroman