Oops, no second Forest, no. Correct observations. Just wanted to show the hand because it looked silly and ended up doing silly things.
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Oops, no second Forest, no. Correct observations. Just wanted to show the hand because it looked silly and ended up doing silly things.
So dirty. I love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
There has been a crazy amount of discussion lately. I can hardly keep up. I've been meaning to put down the Xbox controller and update/flesh out the matchup section of the primer. And with the most recent DTB updates, this seems like as good a time as any. I don't want to derail the thread too hard, but if you guys have any quick tips, tricks, guidelines, or SB strategies VS any of the DTB decks, I'd love to hear them. I have plenty of experience against most of those decks, but we all pilot our lists a little differently, and nobody plays stuff like UWR Delver around here so that matchup is a mystery to me. I'm looking to offer 1-3 gameplans VS each DTB, so feel free to disagree with each other.
Thoughts?
Yeah, the hand was something else. At first I was "wtf no elves this hand is..." Then I saw the line. It could've fallen to one Therapy. Didn't matter. That hand just had to be kept.
I'd like to ask you guys about the legend rule changes. I may have missed it earlier in the thread and if I'm treading old ground I apologize.
Since you can chain a t2 cradle into t3 cradle and quickly ramp your mana with the new Legend Rule should we be running 4 Cradles?
I'm thinking the average setup is 3 cradle and a crop, but 4 cradle and no crop might be better? I'm testing the hypothesis now, but I was curious as to how you all feel about maxing out Cradles. Thanks.
Both lists will have their merits, Crop lets you find other things like mana fixers and Dryad, it also is helpful if your not made of money. I am sure there are other reasons for it too, the card is strong. But 4 Cradle I think will be the way to go. I ordered a 4th and got it for 100, so I am smiling. When that comes my Rotation is coming out and it is going in. I think its time to run 4, but also make sure you have enough non cradle land to keep your deck flowing off the starting hand. Don't run a 15 mana setup with 4 cradles.Quote:
Originally Posted by fisharu
Yeah, any Cradle past 3 will have to take a spell slot. Otherwise you just get too many unkeepable hands. (3 already result in a lot of these).
Any tips on how to kill D&T? I'm just lost as to how to win vs. them, even though it's supposed to be heavily in our favour.
Natural Order - ProgenitusQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Normally D&T has very slow plays (compared to us), you have a couple of turns, until stoneforge + equiped jitte matters.
Donīt keep hands which arenīt good vs strong manadenial (waste+port and a little bit thalia).
Manadenial, Jitte and Ethersworn are the only things you have to worry about, for the last two Viridian Shaman is our best answer (also kills Revoker and Vial). So you need speed and/or viridian combo and/or NO Progenitus.
I would bring in:
+1 NO
+1 Progenitus
+2 A.Decay (enough removal with V.Shaman and Q.Pridemage)
+1 Viridian Shaman (only Pridemage Maindeck)
-2 Heritage Druid (play 2 bircholore main)
-1 Ruric (4 Karkas againt him)
-1 Quirion (play 4 maindeck)
-1 Scavenging Ooze (you donīt need it vs D&T with mother of runes and crusader)
My current Build has 3 Cradles and 1 Rotation. Crop Rotation is strong enough vs Waste+Port Plans, so keep it in.
http://deckstats.net/decks/368/22710-combo-elves
For this:
+1 NO
+1 Progenitus
+2 Decay
+1 O-Ring
-1 Teeg
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Heritage
-1 Quirion
-1 Llanowar Elves
So, after a fair amount of testing and tweaking, I do believe I hold a pretty good list.
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Priest Of Titania
1 x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
1 x Viridian Shaman (Might be swapped for Viridian Zealot since it also hits enchantments) [<-Discussion?]
2 x Quirion Ranger
2 x Cratherhoof Behemoth
3 x Birchlore Ranger
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Heritage Druid
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
1 x Dryad Arbor
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Tropical Island
2 x Forest
3 x Windswepth Heath
3 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Gaea's Cradle
1 x Crop Rotation
3 x Natural Order
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Glimpse Of Nature
SB
1 x Flutterstorm
2 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Karakas
4 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Progenitus
1 x Natural Order
1 x Scavenging Ooze
2 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Qasali Pridemage
Went 1-3 yesterday at a 100% proxies allowed tournament(Needed to test)
Lost 1-2 vs 1-Land-Belcher based of the fact that I couldn't draw a single land
Lost 1-2 vs RUG, Ruric was a beast. Lost of the fact that he slammed 2 Rough//Tumble in G3
Won 2-0 vs Affinity, Ruric into Hoof FTW
Lost 0-2 vs ANT
Overall? I don't think I misplayed.
M1-G3 against 1-Land Belcher, kept a no lander w/ Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak trap. Was I too greedy? I do believe against a deck like that you need to be flexible in your lines of play.
M2-I played around Stifle/Daze a lot. Maybe I could have been more aggressive. Before it started, I played a lot against RUG and crushed him every time. My bet is that matchup is quite draw-dependant. T2 NO->Ruric will stop them. No matter what.
M3-Affinity can't do nothing againts Wirewood Symbiote/Viridian Shaman. I was bouncing him to play him twice a turn. Destroyed his board 2 permanents at the time.
M4-What can you do against T2 combos? Board and mull? Yeah....Until he T1 Duress, T2 Duress then combo...
I don't know if the second Hoof is that great to be honest. I played for a while with a singleton, and could Voralz take the place of the second Hoof? I mean, in the grindy matchups, the +1/+1 counters on creatures could be quite a beatdown. Just an idea I'm throwing there. He's on-color with our manabase, still triggers Glimpse,Nettle and friends, and allows us a greater use of our graveyard. Scavenging a Dryad Arbor for 0 or a Nettle Sentinel for 1 is not a bad idea. He's also resilient to removal (Supreme Verdict, Bolt, etc...). He is kind of anti-synergic with DRS, but I'm still a strong believer that Elves is a grindy deck that can turn into a combo deck if the pieces are in your hands. I might also get rid of the Ooze in the SB to jam a third Abrupt Decay in the SB.
Big tournament is Saturday. I don't know, maybe there will be a stream of it? Ill talk to the shop owner see if we can set it up. Ill keep you posted!
I don't understand the Titania.
3 NO targets main is too many IMHO, 2 Hoof or 1 Hoof, 1 Ruric.
Mindbreak Trap is a bad card. Thorn/Thalia stops combo from setting up AND impedes going off. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce can also be used for that in a pinch, especially after they've gotten Therapied and really help kill them in the combo turn. Trap just sits there hoping they walk into it.
Resistors and one-mana counters can also have applications in other matchups.
Why the hell are you running Karakas with one Crop Rotation?
I'd rather replace Pridemage with Zealot than Shaman with Zealot. Besides, you want at least one anti-artifact dude that isn't boned by Cursed Totem.
I don't understand the 1-off flusterstorm. And for that you got to play the Tropical...I think IF you go with the blue splash play 3-4 flusterstorm/spell pierce and maybe a Beck//Call.
IMO it's not worth it anyway and the flusterstorms/mindbreak traps could easily be Thoughtseize.
Also, I would play either Ruric Thar OR Gaddock Teeg, not both post-board. I think Gaddock Teeg isn't worth it anymore if the goal is to NO for the win or Ruric after having hindered them with Discard(combo matchup).
In the last tournament I went to, I faced a D&T player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
G1 took us about 35 min., and was grindy as hell. Their mana denial really keeps it dificult for you to NO>Behemoth and still have untapped creatures to swing with. Also, a surprise Aven Mindcensor wrecked my plan:
he Ports my land at my upkeep > I Crop Rotation it to find a Cradle > he Mindcensors me, I find no land, and I end up with mana scarcity for the rest of the game (he had Port + Thalia; my GSZs were dead, and so was NO).
Aven Mindcensor hinders: Fetch-lands, Crop Rotation, GSZ, NO. Watch out for it.
Also, Flickerwisping your Heritage Druid before you combo hurts and generally "wastes" a Glimpse (or at least weakens it a lot).
Only when I was at very low life, and managed to get critical mass of mana elfs, was that I could combo Glimpse and win with Behemoth. (Had I passed the turn, I would be dead).
On G2, despite I had a T2-3 NO>Progenitus, I almost lost the game!
He got an early Batterskull that was gaining important life and, with his other creatures, it was going to out-race my Prog! Only a timely Wirewood Symbiote + elf secured my win, in negating his Batterskull's lifelink.
So, play tight and keep a really wide-open eye for their tricks, because they are good at playing at instant speed to disrupt you (after all, D&T is made for it, right?)
So, how do you stop Turn 1 Combo decks? I still see SB choices as meta-based decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I know there will be at least minimum 2-3 T1/T2 Combo decks running.
Thorn was originally in my SB, but got cut for Karakas. Im expecting Sneak and Show as well. Karakas is for that matchup.
I understand your choices, but unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and perfect hands are too rare. Against Combo, I just go for the beatdown plan and keep reactive cards if they go off.
I don't. Them's the beats. But even TES and Tin Fins are more T2 decks than T1 decks, and TES's T1's are often "bunch of Goblins, go" which can still be defended against. Trying to beat Belcher-style decks is just not worth it. They lose to themselves. Trap is really only great on Turn 0. If you dislike 2-mana disruption pieces (which is understandable), I'd much rather run 3 Flusterstorms/Spell Pierces than Mindbreak Traps. Those come online T1 and have utility in a much greater variety of situations/decks and longer into the game than Trap does.
I'm probably playing again on a tournament this weekend, and I'm willing to give Ruric Thar, the Unbowed a try.
So I ask those of you who are playing it:
- How is your experience to it, regarding having issues to cast it in case you draw it before NO (without having GSZ/Birchlore at hand)?
Does it happen often? Does it happen at all?
I see that some of you are replacing Quirion Ranger #4 (and #3) for Birchlore Rangers #2 (and #3).
Besides it, do any of you run a Taiga over Bayou #2, to avoid these potential issues, or is it not worth the trouble?
You don't. Trying to do so would really warp the sideboard with useless cards. Remember that this is Legacy and SB cards are at a premium. Furthermore, no single deck has the ability to win every matchup. Playing Elves means you're vulnerable to faster combo deck. This is well known. The SB is built under the assumption that Combo decks will not go off on turn 1, and allow us time to fire off a discard spell and/or play 2 mana hate-bears/resistors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
You would be better served by playing Flusterstorm/Pierce (but these are a bit dubious), Silence (which has much better utility IMO), or additional discard (Thoughtseize/Duress).
Therapy+Silence sounds oddly... lucrative.
It kinda does. Therapy happens to work nicely with Wirewood Herald though I do not know how truly useful that guy is without more ways to toss him in the bin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
We're not about to add him to the mb just because he interacts nicely with one of our sb cards. And he's certainly not good enough for a sb slot. It's just not meant to be. Visionary already replaces itself in your hand and it can find your business spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
I briefly played with 4 Therapy and 2 or 3 Silence and it was oftentimes difficult to get black and white mana during the first two turns - when you really need them. I quickly went to additional discard instead of Silence so I could fetch Bayou more usefully.
Definitely this is true, but their tutors aren't nearly as scary in the first couple turns without LED mana. I've found it puts them back enough so you can find Teeg. I'll keep at it some more. A big reason is the fact that I always just guess between Wish and Tutor - whereas LED is clearly the best at what it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
@Zombie: I would recommend not boarding in o-ring for llanowar against D&T. Missing that t1 mana dork gives the opponent time to find aven mindcensor/leonin arbiter, which shuts off NO->progenitus. Also, it confines us to 2 colors instead of 3 (useful against their mana denial).
@Igri: Thanks for the insight on silence. For these same reasons, the blue splash isn't so great either. However, the only problem with adding duress/thoughtseize is more vulnerability to leyline of sanctity. I'll usually call LED too in most cases. Sometimes the opponent will be smart and play LED before being able to go off. In these instances, then I'll name tutor.