[Deck] Sneak and Show

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Originally Posted by Unassigned

With that rant over, who all will be in Columbus for the Invi this weekend? I'll be there, but I'm currently debating if I'll be running Sneak or ANT. My Standard decision is between UW Control and RW Burn. I would like to go on record by saying that I am very annoyed that this is a Standard Top 8, lol.

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No problem, just rock the Legacy Open if you miss the Top 8. :cool:

And stick with Sneak&Show, of course. ;-) Can't comment on Standard..

Defense Grid might be a good SB-choice for the Invi, I heard a lot of grinders like to play Tempo-decks at those tournaments. And even though Todd and CVM had decent success with their list at the last 2 Opens, I don't like cutting the basic Mountain, playing with only 8 real cantrips and without Intuition/Misdirection...

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Originally Posted by ORDAL

Hi guys, can someone explain why the lists now have two jace?

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It is the meta call, if you expect a delver-heavy meta or a meta full of more aggressive decks, I don't think you would like to play Jace. Jace is mainly for miracle and mirror.

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Originally Posted by JPA

To sum this up: The reason that you hate S&S is that it is the best combo deck? :wink:

Personally, I disagree with your statement that I hate playing vs Elves for example (unless I beat them :tongue: ). Even if you make all the right decisions concering removal/discard/counters, they are awesome at topdecking the game-winning NO/GSZ/Craterhoof/Cradle/Ooze/w/e, nullifying all of the awesome "interaction and nuances" that might have happened until then.
I'd rather get Emrakul'd twice in a quick 10-minute-match and move onto the next round without a headache than losing a 50minute-war against Elves where I made all the right decisions and still got topdeck-hoofd. That's just my opinion, and even though I don't share your view, I can totally understand it.

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JPA, I like playing elves for the same reason that I like playing SNT...Consistency, Card advantage and a fast kill....

What's up Sneak and Show players?

I've been playing this deck for almost a year now. I would consider myself pretty expert at this deck because I guess I made it to the top 4 at a tournament once of 32 players. But, then again I don't consider myself the best Magic player. Have anyone tried running a single maybe two Omniscience in this deck along with the rest of the majority of the deck like 4 sneak attacks? I conjecture this point because I feel that it's nice to switch things up against your opponent sometimes when they especially are well tuned to knowledge of the format. Unless you're a noob, you're deck is probably fined tune to be 50% against the field and to your experience. I believe playing 1 single or maybe 2 omniscience can have an overwhelming effect on the game because you can play your game in a way that people can recognize your playing sneak and show, but when you finally are able to cast Show and tell without disruption then by dropping an Omniscience instead of the usual big creature or Sneak Attack, it forces opponents to become utter helpless to deal with it. Only in certain matches, some decks are able to deal with Omniscience but I believe most blue decks cannot. For me, the only match-ups that really matter to me to win in is any Blue-base control deck because they have the most resistance to combo. To wrap up my conclusion, I believe it's necessary to run Omniscience somwhere in this list because simply put, mirror matches become more favorable and who doesn't like to play Time Walk?

Dan

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Originally Posted by dcosiem

I believe playing 1 single or maybe 2 omniscience can have an overwhelming effect on the game because you can play your game in a way that people can recognize your playing sneak and show, but when you finally are able to cast Show and tell without disruption then by dropping an Omniscience instead of the usual big creature or Sneak Attack, it forces opponents to become utter helpless to deal with it.

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If you want to play a 3-card-combo-deck, play Omniclash. There is no reason to put two dead cards into Sneak&Show.

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Originally Posted by JPA

If you want to play a 3-card-combo-deck, play Omniclash. There is no reason to put two dead cards into Sneak&Show.

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I saw some random lists playing a few omniscience in the maindeck before, it seems SNT into Omniscience into Emrakul is a good way to break up karakas+revoker lock in the pre-board game. I guess it is the only value you get from playing omniscience...

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Originally Posted by JPA

If you want to play a 3-card-combo-deck, play Omniclash. There is no reason to put two dead cards into Sneak&Show.

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If you don't know how to read English, then I don't understand whether or not I've made it clear to you. There are cases when Show and Tell isn't as good as we would assume it to be. For example, in matches with Death and Taxes or simply the mirror match. When you Show and Tell, they can always put down Revokers, Managara or O-ring in DNT's case. In Show and Tell Match up's they can put down an Emrakul. Situations like this, would seem to make Omniscience to be stronger out then to the usual method.

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Originally Posted by GoblinZ

I saw some random lists playing a few omniscience in the maindeck before, it seems SNT into Omniscience into Emrakul is a good way to break up karakas+revoker lock in the pre-board game. I guess it is the only value you get from playing omniscience...

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Yea, it's random, but I think it's effective because it catches opponents of their guard. "One's success is not the same as another."

I tried a version of the deck with Omni in there for a short time and found that the deck wanted the cantrips more. I even tried a version with Worldspine Wurm as an extra non-Legendary creature. That, um, didn't work and was spurned by my kitchen game bias because my friend loves to play Death and Taxes. The deck seems like the general idea of 23 ways to have mana, 8 creatures, 8 enablers plus cantrips and/or Jace is the normal split for a reason.

Now, the question I have for all is if anyone feels Dack Fayden has a chance in the deck, replacing Jace.

I see a few reasons for it:
-It has a way to cantrip. This could lead to pitching an extra Emrakul or something.
-It can buy turns against Jitte/Batterskull.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by dcosiem

If you don't know how to read English, then I don't understand whether or not I've made it clear to you. There are cases when Show and Tell isn't as good as we would assume it to be. For example, in matches with Death and Taxes or simply the mirror match. When you Show and Tell, they can always put down Revokers, Managara or O-ring in DNT's case. In Show and Tell Match up's they can put down an Emrakul. Situations like this, would seem to make Omniscience to be stronger out then to the usual method.

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I would rather Show and Tell in Progenitus against D&T than Omniscience, which requires me to have a third card. Like I said, the D&T-resilient 3-card-combo-deck you are looking for is MonoU-Omniclash, not Sneak&Show. Omniscience has zero synergy with Sneak Attack and is often a dead draw, I see no reason to play it.

And I really hope no one is that stupid to play a blind Show and Tell into creature in the mirror match.

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A lethal NO on the stack? Have a look at this Golgari Charm. Glimpse/hardcast Hoof require heavy commitment to the board to make happen at all, and both Storm/Elves need heavy nonblue commitment so you can't really sit behind counter backup.

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if i may, compare these "answers" to a simple card like Karakas.

heck, you don't even need to cast it. just play land then go.
if this is the t1 land my DnT opp drops, my whole line just change.

so point is, for every card there is usually answer, similar to Golgari Charm as an answer to a lethal NO to Hoof, and for SnT, a simple land is the answer.

it is "unfair" because of the perception that high casting cost crits needs to drop down late in the game and SnT has a way to put them into play t1. however, it becomes "fair" since everyone has access to a sideboard which will be an answer to those "unfair" plays.

like what was mentioned before, if someone doesn't have the appropriate board, then they are not approaching the meta with the best possible way.

speaking of Omniscience, I'd rather have a singleton Progenitus instead or an Ashen Rider. At least I'll have an answer to whatever permanent my opp puts into play especially that Karakas.

:)

I forgot to post about my Invi results...

Obviously I was not Top 8, but did VERY well. I originally planned on playing UW Control & ANT, but was convinced to run RW Burn and Sneak & Show literally 30 minutes outside of Columbus. The reasoning that I was convinced is due to the fact that I spent a lot of my day on Wednesday developing (what I felt) was the perfect Sneak sideboard setup for the metagame. I went with the following:

Invitational List:

3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Lotus Petal

4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

Sideboard:

3 Blood Moon
2 Ashen Rider
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
2 Swan Song
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

... it was the perfect call for my matchups. I'm doing this all from memory, but I faced Elves, UWR Delver, 3x BUG decks, Miracles, Sneak & Show, and Reanimator throughout the event. In Legacy, I lost Day 1's first round of Legacy to my friend Kevin Gerhart who was on Shardless BUG (I was forced to Emrakul him to a lonely Baleful Strix while I was at 1. Went into 4x Ponders and 2x Brainstorms without seeing any other creature in G1). G2 I couldn't keep up with his tempo and succumbed to 2x Goyf's. I proceeded to win the remaining three rounds for X-3 and made the cut for Day Two.

The Day Two Standard luck shined on me and I was able to 4-0 it out. I'm already out of T8/T16 contention, but still able to cash if I don't lose 3 rounds of Legacy. I win the first round of Legacy against BUG Delver. Lost G1, won games 2 & 3 by baiting his counters and landing Blood Moon to lock him out of any non-FoW spells. I faced UWR Delver next. I get G1, he gets G2, and G3 I clear his board with Pyroclasm and Probe him. He shows 2x Daze and 2x Spell Pierce. I don't have enough mana to pay for the last Daze, but can after I play my land next turn so I pass. He draws and passes. I draw and move in... he topdecked his last Daze. Such is life. After this I faced the mirror and get G1 off of a fast Show-into-Sneak-into-both-men draw. Games 2 & 3 I have all of the draw spells, but never see any creatures. I noted on my life sheet that in games 1/2/3, not once did I ever see/draw any of my FoW's/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/Swan Songs. I need to win this last round to at least cash/make points. He mulls to Five and is on the play. Fetchland into U Sea into Entomb Sire of Insanity into Petal into Reanimate. I Force his Reanimate and of course his last card is a Daze. G2 I get out a T1 Cage and navigate into an easy win. G3 we both mull to 5 and I have a good amount of counters. He has three Duress and neuters my hand. I'm left with Gris, Ponder and Ancient Tomb in hand with 3x Volcs in play. He casts Show & Tell. with two cards left in hand. He's played a land and is tapped out. I have no choice but to put Gris into play and he puts a Tidespout in. "Do you have the Petal or Probe?" He casts Petal to bounce my Gris and I can safely pay 14 and proceed to completely brick on my draws. Ten of which are lands, two are Petals, with a Flusterstorm and another Ponder. Both Ponders give me nothing and I extend the hand. Oh well, it happens. I still Day Two'd (Kevin and I were the only ones in our group to Day Two) and had a blast with all of my friends. We went to Max & Erma's on Saturday night and I swear that our waitress has the patience of a saint. We gave her a lot to deal with, including a 6-shots-of-vodka-fueled Feline "Grandma" Longmore. :tongue:

Can't wait for Somerset in August and I'll definitely be in Columbus in November.

Now... something that I've been testing online and I'm extremely happy with the results is that I've been running a trio of Fire / Ice in the main deck. This has tremendously improved the problematic issues that we face Game 1 against a vast array of decks. It slows down Elves, hits Revoker/Thalia/Mother of Runes/Delver/Deathrite, taps an EOT Marit Lage or Karakas, pitches to Force of Will... it allowed me to win two matches last night at my local shop.

My current list has changed via -2 Probe, -1 SDT, -1 Intuition for +3 Fire / Ice, +1 Jace. I also swap out the 2 Swan Song for 2 Flusterstorm if I see more combo than Miracles.

For those who play maindeck JtMS, Do you side out jace agaisnt RUG/BUG tempo?

And I have not played Todd Anderson's list yet, how do you sideboard in the match-up I mentioned above with his list? He does not even play Pyroblast or REB.

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Originally Posted by Unassigned

Now... something that I've been testing online and I'm extremely happy with the results is that I've been running a trio of Fire / Ice in the main deck. This has tremendously improved the problematic issues that we face Game 1 against a vast array of decks. It slows down Elves, hits Revoker/Thalia/Mother of Runes/Delver/Deathrite, taps an EOT Marit Lage or Karakas, pitches to Force of Will... it allowed me to win two matches last night at my local shop.

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Oh my. I am in love with this idea. I'll be testing at my weekly tomorrow. I'm also currently testing a singleton Ashen Rider in the maindeck. I suspect it can help with the always frustrating Karakas matchups.

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Originally Posted by GoblinZ

For those who play maindeck JtMS, Do you side out jace agaisnt RUG/BUG tempo?

And I have not played Todd Anderson's list yet, how do you sideboard in the match-up I mentioned above with his list? He does not even play Pyroblast or REB.

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Against RUG, yes. Against BUG, no. I personally am not a fan of Todd's list. I only run a single Jace because I hate that it's a dead card in several matchups, or a 4cc one-shot Brainstorm in others.

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Originally Posted by J-Funk

Oh my. I am in love with this idea. I'll be testing at my weekly tomorrow. I'm also currently testing a singleton Ashen Rider in the maindeck. I suspect it can help with the always frustrating Karakas matchups.

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How'd this work out for you? It's been amazing for me, online and live. I've had more than a few Game 1 opponent freakouts over a maindeck Fire hitting a Stoneforge Mystic or 2-for-1ing a Dryad Arbor + other Elf.

I'm really into it. I killed a couple of baleful strixes and a deathrite shaman over the course of the night. I'm going to run two of them at SCG Portland.

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Originally Posted by J-Funk

I'm really into it. I killed a couple of baleful strixes and a deathrite shaman over the course of the night. I'm going to run two of them at SCG Portland.

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I'm not sure if Izzet Charm doesn't do the job just as good as Fire, while being more versatile and not dead in the Combo- and Miracles-matchup. Fire is definitely better against D&T and Elves.

Anyways, good luck in Portland!

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Originally Posted by JPA

I'm not sure if Izzet Charm doesn't do the job just as good as Fire, while being more versatile and not dead in the Combo- and Miracles-matchup. Fire is definitely better against D&T and Elves.

Anyways, good luck in Portland!

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A valid point, but I think the 1 colorless in Fire/Ice is actually super relevant considering SOL lands, and ice tapping a karakas is extremely important, even if it works only once. It could be the difference.

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Originally Posted by J-Funk

ice tapping a karakas is extremely important

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Nice, didn't think about the Ice-part being relevant. Mana-denial-shenanigans on the upkeep might also make a difference, especially against other combo decks.

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Originally Posted by JPA

Nice, didn't think about the Ice-part being relevant. Mana-denial-shenanigans on the upkeep might also make a difference, especially against other combo decks.

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I'm loving the addition of Fire/Ice. I had tested Izzet Charm a long time ago, but it was far too clunky and was often sided out as not as versatile as I anticipated. As I listed at the end of Post #291, it's so critical to be able to hold off a Marit Lage or tap a Karakas EOT. I've been using it to great effect in the Elves and Death & Taxes matchups. It's also helped me in the early turns against Delver decks. In fact, last night I got a 2-for-1 on two unflipped Delvers Game 1. I'm just extremely happy with the addition and doubt that I'll be moving off of it anytime soon. While it's not amazing in the Miracles matchup, neither is Izzet Charm. But overall, I feel that this adds a main deck out against some of our worst matchups. Not to mention that it pitches to FoW... :D

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69466

Well, we got there sorta. The losses occurred in round 3 to Death and Taxes and round 7 to BUG delver. BUG continues to be one of our hardest matchups, and in my loss I had to mulligan in the two games I lost. Winning that match starting with 6 is VERY difficult.

I'm in love with fire//ice. It did so much work today. MVP play was killing a Mother of Runes and a Phyrexian Revoker at end of turn after Mom was vialed in.

Jace also did incredible work. He's definitely there to stay.

Overall, I think this is still a premier deck. We still have bad matchups, but they are definitely winnable. I think BUG is probably the worst, so I'm going to be searching for better ways to handle that matchup. I was able to win against a BUG deck in round 9, which felt like a good piece of redemption.