It is not problematic that it doesnt take out deathrite and sfm. Also, isnt electrickery just a strict upgrade?Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
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It is not problematic that it doesnt take out deathrite and sfm. Also, isnt electrickery just a strict upgrade?Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Pithing Needle is the real "sweeper" that you want against Deathrite Shaman and is also good against SFM. If you are running 6+ burn spells in the Main deck, I wouldn't bring in additional removal for those cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleb
Electrickery does (basically) nothing for less than 3 mana, so no. Possibly Izzet Staticaster has enough upside to merrit more consideration. Edit- The error of my ways has been point out, Electickery seems pretty good actually and obviously better than Simoon.
You don't think a bunch of Elementals and True-Name can shut down opposing Mongooses? I could be wrong, but that seems very reasonable to me, especially if you have basics. Your own Goose, after all, is just a guaranteed trade and doesn't hold as wide a range of potential. I'll cede this config can be worse, but it also can be better; it's just more variance.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Grim Lavamancer cut it to a Top 16 finish at GP Paris; seems like he may be worth reevaluating. I don't think you need to go the burn route when you have creatures as powerful in a long game as Pyromancer and True-Name, and there is precedence for something very similar to what I'm describing, in Osyp's 2nd-place list here: https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazi...al13/legacy#6aQuote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
I personally don't even like playing with Stifle, but I'm willing to respect that something like that has the possibility to be better than BlindNavigator's list while enjoying many of its advantages (and others).
You may be confused; Electrickery is clearly strictly better than Simoon, which is what he was posting about, as it overloads for 1R.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
There certainly could be a configuration out there that works that doesn't run Mongoose and therefore Stifle (which wants one drops to apply pressure), I just haven't find anything I like nearly as much as BlindNavigator's list.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecludedGlenn
I've never read Overload correctly before now, thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by SecludedGlenn
Wow, wow, wow, so many new ideas!
First of all, I don't like the Goyfles build, if not for anything else, then for these reasons:
- Goyf is faster and cheaper. This may matter aginst fast decks or those with Wasteland. One Island doesn't make any difference.
- I'm not a fan of GPs in aggro/control decks, but w/e.
- Otoh, I'm a great fan of Spell Pierce.
- Simoon? Really? Well, this is so old school, such nostalgia. :)
I'd rather cut green completely. Yep, Mongoose is a pretty powerful card and the shroud is annoying, but well...
- you may play Stifle even without Mongoose, it's not like one needs another
- a stable manabase is worth the cut
- green adds nothing but beaters and it shouldn't be that hard to find some solid in the mix of 3000 red and/or blue creatures
- two CLs suck, I'd either play four of them, or use FBs.
For now I'll stay true to the Goyf build. At least until something forces me to buy the TNNs. But then again I feel like bUrg is much better deck for it, although it may crumble under its own weight, once the opponent kills DRS.
If anybody takes the time to read this, thank you.
Canadian Threshold is, at its core, a Mono Blue deck, and it splashes two colors for two very unique purposes: Green for Creatures, and Red for Burn. This is how the deck has traditionally functioned--a streamlined and efficient Mono Blue tempo deck that has Volcanoes and Tropics for Islands.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecludedGlenn
We can proceed to increase and decrease the amount of either secondary color within a certain window of 4 to, at most, 10 cards. Consider Red: original versions of Canadian Threshold ran 8 Red spells (4x Lightning Bolt and 4x Fire//Ice) for more reach and removal, similar to what we see in today's 8-Bolt lists. We can also choose to lower these numbers to as many as 4x Lightning Bolt (our premier Red card) and perhaps 1x Forked Bolt or Fire//Ice as we see in many lists. Yet nobody has ever suggested...why not cut Red? Because, at that point, we're only playing 4 Red Spells. Is it worth it?
Of course. Nobody would argue otherwise.
So what does maintaining Lightning Bolt as our principal purpose for playing Red have to do with Nimble Mongoose and the Green question? Simple: I believe we are underestimating the power level of Nimble Mongoose and its purpose within the parameters of this deck. You see, I firmly believe Tarmogoyf to be the Green equivalent of Chain Lightning or Fire//Ice in the purpose of this deck. He is something nice to have. A good, solid, secondary beater. I believe Tarmogoyf is Green card #5-8 and he's no Nimble Mongoose. Nimble Mongoose is our Lightning Bolt, and it is, like Bolt is to Red, far and away a just fine reason to run its color.
To exemplify why Nimble is so premier, let me first point something out that I disagree with in your (Secluded's) statement:
Nimble isn't really that excellent against Combo decks outside of being cheap. And Golgari Charm is a soft Wrath for un-Threshed Mongeese, so those are two reasons why NOT to play it.
But as to why we SHOULD play it:
Specifically, Mongoose is particularly good against Miracles, and its shroud creates card advantage by nullifying removal in our opponent's hands. It cannot be Unsummoned by Jace. There are other reasons, but I don't do well with specifics.
I prefer thinking of it in more basic terms, and to do so, let me shift gears and start with the role of Delver of Secrets: So long as we have counters to deal with our opponent's removal, we possess a Blue, Flying Wild Nacatl.
Conversely, with Nimble Mongoose, if we can keep our opponent's board clear, we have an untargetable Wild Nacatl.
Essentially, our two best creatures, Delver of Secrets and Nimble Mongoose, are both 3 power for 1 mana and possess the strength the other lacks: Delver flies, Mongoose shrouds. The fact that Delver only sometimes flies while Mongoose always shrouds increases that power level of Mongoose.
Tarmogoyf, in contrast to Delver and Nimble, requires that we both Protect him and Open the battlefield for him. Incidentally, TNN does all three: it protects itself (Nimble) ignores opponent's defenses (Delver) and blocks forever (Tarmogoyf).
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Stifle remains to protect our manabase. So long as we play Green, we should be playing Stifle. This is why Nimble Mongoose and Stifle are being lumped together in discussion. If you'd like to drop Nimble, you have 0 reasons left to play Green (it would be tantamount to dropping Lightning Bolt and continuing to play Red)...and, incidentally, unless you switch to UR DreadStill, you have little reason to refrain from going full UR Burn and drop Stifle completely.
I believe part of the 'problem' is a point of view some people are presenting right now. It seems as we lower our green count, we are asking one another "Why weaken our manabase at all? Why not, at this point, cut Green entirely?"
The curious aspect of this is that we never asked ourselves why we were previously satisfied with being more reliant on this mana base (running 8 green creatures and as many as 8 burn spells) but, now that we might limit this reliance, we are asking ourselves why run green at all. Yet this move would limit our need for both Green and Red (I'm proposing 4x Nimble and 4x Bolt, flat) which, in turn, actually IMPROVES our mana base!
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@ Bed Decks, On G. Probe:
We don't need to be Combo to play G. Probe. We just need to be in a position to capitalize on knowing the content's of our opponent's land, filling our graveyard, and drawing a card for 0 mana. Which I believe we are.
Gitaxian Probe is very powerful at enabling the correct choice between our two best first turn plays. That is, Holding mana open for Stifle, or committing to a Threat backed up by Daze//FoW. Not only does it provide us with the information we need in deciding whether to play hard or soft, it also, through its cantrip, increases the chances that we even have an opening Stifle, Daze, or Force.
While one can state it's always right to hold open mana for Stifle, it is absolutely not right when we've allowed our opponent a turn to, for instance, play Plains into Aether Vial. Our "tempo" play has backfired. We are behind. With G. Probe, we'll know what we're facing immediately and be able to adapt our immediate and over-arcing game plan accordingly. And for every time we decide we'll play aggressively and open with a Delver and Daze backup, we'll see our one land wasted away while we stare sadly at the Stifle we held in our hand.
G. Probe allows us which direction to step from the opening stanza of battle, and for a deck like Canadian Thresh...which punishes the slightest misstep...this is a very powerful effect.
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I also think running 2x Chain Lightning is slightly weak. I'd play Spell Pierce, Fire//Ice, Forked Bolt, or Dismember there instead.
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TNN or any other 3cc card does not immediately become excluded from consideration simply because of its cost. Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Temporal Spring, TNN as a singleton or out of the Side, Snapcaster Mage...there have been a number of successful "3cc" cards in Canadian's past.
Also, look...I know I'm not the only person who's paid 5 mana for a Force of Will with this deck. Sure, we're not 'supposed' to get to that point, and it's incredibly rare, but sometimes we do. And sometimes we have to.
But that's Five mana. Three mana is not undoable. Even now, without a nineteenth land, I hit three mana in nearly every game I play, and I still have plenty of lands to shuffle away with Brainstorm+Fetch.
Paying 3 mana for a creature that creates for such inevitability as TNN does is a just fine card to post at the top of our Mana Curve. TNN isn't going to be singlehandedly winning us many games against Combo (at least not quickly), but the card he'd replace--Tarmogoyf--isn't here for our Combo matchups, either. He's here to block and put on Pressure. Incidentally, those are both things TNN does better than Tarm, like pitching to Force and costing 1/9th the money. I kid. I know we all love spending money on cardboard made by a Toy Company.
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So often when I log into here, I see people listing their bad beats stories from the past weekends. Clearly, the deck (or we) aren't performing very well. We should be taking chances at this point...because Canadian Thresh from five months ago just isn't doing it anymore.
And even if we want to maintain our current configurations, it would be great if we could possess a slightly redesigned form of Canadian for each and every meta shift, no matter how subtle or seemingly negligible.
I was always adamant about not playing cards more expensive than 2 cmc in Canadian. In fact, for some time, I tried playing 1cmc cards exclusively. However, currently, I'm tired of being Goyf-Locked and Abrupt Decayed. Thus, I'm very interested in trying TNN in place of Tarmogoyf, the rest of the stock 50, and 2x Spell Pierce, 3x G. Probe, and 1x Island, or, ie, a modified version of Navigator's list.
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TL;DR: Canadian Threshold is a Mono Blue deck, Nimble Mongoose is Lightning Bolt, and True-Name Nemesis is the current Tarmogoyf/Psychatog/Morphling/Serra Angel.
Good read, I think you're right in many points, maybe all of them. For now, I'll play my conservative list, not only because I don't want to spend 1/9 Goyf's price on a card with a banhammer above it's ugly head.
But you'Ve made interesting points.
@carefulmug: I totally agree with you, 3 mana shouldnt be an issue...as weve boarded in sulfurs, cliqs, kgrips... so from the time being we need help on the sides we're always looking forward getting to 3 manas ...with all the cantrips we have, stifles protects us from opposing wastes, it shouldnt be an issue..
my list was very consistent the past tourneys (20man or up, im still waiting for it to appear on TCDECKS)
the 2 inclusions lately in my crit configuration made the difference..
-1 mongoose
-1 tarmogoyf
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 VCliq...
if i needed to counter right away, i always have something for fow.
and these 2 are damn disruptive! i faced mirror numerous times and landing a TNN is the bomb! never had problems with that.
lots of my RUG friends here already changed decks..
im more confident we can do this still.. RUG has been and will be SUCCESSFUL!
because the deck knows to DIVERSIFY.
Fantastic writeup carefulmug. I couldn't agree more on your overall direction. Going to try some tnns this week and see how the mana / cost feels to me
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Thanks, guys.
I don't want to buy them, either. I'm thinking of trading a couple Plateau from when I played Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
But do you still think it (TNN) might get banned? It's not as ubiquitous as Tarmogoyf was for years. Or do you think it deserves banning due strictly to its mechanics? Fun factor? Ugly-Headedness?
I'm curious because I definitely expected a ban at first, but once BUG Delver and UWr Miracles became the top dogs (indeed, because of TNN prevalence), I stopped expecting a banning.
This summed up my opinions on Gitaxian Probe very well. I think I'll include it in the primer in some shape, if that's ok with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by carefulmug
That would be fine!Quote:
Originally Posted by Purgatory
I should mention: I don't think any decklist right now is necessarily more "Right" or "Wrong". There are a lot of different factors to take into account when considering the appropriateness of a deck list, from meta to personal play style and even to superstitions and reactions people have to certain cards. There are a lot of intangibles to consider, and speaking in absolutes can be deceiving. So I apologize in advance if I ever come across as King Turd in my theories and reads on deck building.
Anwyway. If we look at lists starting at...3/30/14 on TCdecks for Canadian that has performed to top8 finishes in 200+ person tournaments, we have:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13343&iddeck=98004
2 G. Probe
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13343&iddeck=98002
2 G. Probe
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13345&iddeck=98015
0 G. Probe (Invitational List)
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13417&iddeck=98546
3 G. Probe (0 Mongoose)
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13440&iddeck=98752
4 G. Probe (Eric Rill's Ubrg Thresh (Spy Kids) playing 0 Mongoose/Tarm but 4 YPyromancer. Most importantly, utilizes 4 Stifle.)
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13556&iddeck=99602
2. G Probe
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13556&iddeck=99598
2. G Probe (0 Stifle)
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That's 7/8 (or 6/7 if you do not want to count Rill's list) of decks are utilizing some number of G Probe. While it may not be more "Right" than other choices, it is a portion of the most high placing lists in the largest tournaments.
I believe another excellent reason for utilizing G. Probe, and which I believe this data suggests, is its unique ability in helping alleviate the mental taxing that accompanies large tournaments.
I totally agree with carefulmug. All his views are relevant. About TNN, each time a RUG player wants to include it, he can ask himself "Why running a suboptimal card, which is way better in other decks ?" (BUG or UWR Delver for instance). I think it's necessary not to think this way. I believe strongly that Canadian Threshold still has weapons to succeed (some recent SCG results proved it) even with very traditional builds. Yet, slightly redefining the archetype, or at least strive not to think RUG Delver has a main carved in stone is the way to go. TNN won't be at its best but can definitely help the deck being way more powerful (though I hate to admit it). I will try a version with 19 lands, an Island at first, and 2 TNN instead of 2 Goyfs along with two G.Probe. Even if I rarely play Stifle to protect my own lands, G. Probe might allow me to play it better which seems crucial if we want to constantly drop a 3ccm threat.
I'm not sure if TNN gets banned. It's definitely not so ubiquitous as other Legacy staples or as Goyf was for years. Moreover, banning it would be bad from business point of view, also people started to adapt to it, although 4 REBs in sb are quite extreme. I'll wait for the next update (I also hope it will drop even further) and then maybe I'll purchase the set. I wasted quite some money on MtG since the end of last year and although I financed it with my old cards, I'm not thrilled with an idea of spending 80 euro for a quartet of 3/1 dudes.
@ Bed Decks
If you like it and it continues to perform well for you, you should definitely continue to play the traditional 12 creature configuration. It was almost unanimously represented in the placing decks that I posted above, so there's not much factual data that suggests Canadian Thresh is lagging in overall volume of tournament placement due to Tarmogoyf (or Nimble, for that matter) being an unwise choice.
My decision to try TNN is based in my local meta--lots of BUG Delver and lots of Miracles. Shardless and UWR Delver fill in the holes. Occasionally somebody plays Reanimator or Sneak and Show. Against these decks (save for Reanimator and SneaknShow), Tarmogoyf has typically been the weakest creature. Nonetheless, he's a hard pipe hitting Grizzly Bear, and so, for now, I really like BlueP.'s idea of running a 2/2 split of TNN and Tarmogoyf.
I believe this is a close compromise between BlindNavigator's and Poxy's lists, two players who have reported success in playing 1-4 TNN.
I run 2 TNN out of the board, it seemed pretty solid, but I also don't get to play a ton anymore.
To me the thing you need to be careful about is not to get locked into your colors, as much as optimizing your overall strategy.
I don't really see RUG delver as being a Blue, Red, and Green deck, but as the stifle/waste tempo deck that uses burn as the most flexible possible removal spell, and the most efficient threats threats to end the game, while the opponent is still thrown off their plan by stifle/waste.
TNN is a very durable threat, and that is something that is very nessacary in MUs like miracles, where they have so many ways to negate our stifles and wastes (ie basics and not being forced to play any spells early in general), which is why I run it in the board. However, the reason I don't think I would ever want to have it maindeck is because it can get awkward when we are trying to play out our main game plan. We don't want to be holding back wastes to cast a 3cc spell, we don't want to be tapping out to cast a 3cc spell, because it makes the main game plan so much worse.
If you are going to a tournament, where the meta is so grindy that you need to be maindecking something like multiple TNN, I would start to say that stifle waste might also not be the most optimal game plan. If Stifle/waste is not the optimal game plan, then the 1cc or mongoose and delver become less relevant, and you can probably go for something with more utility or durability like DRS. I think if you want to try and slow down the deck by maindecking a slow 3cc card, it's better to just start to shift to more of a midrange deck, and I think that bug or jund offer more durable higher impact cards than RUG can give you.
Midrange RUG just seems like a very mediocre deck, which is probably why you really don't see it. You can't crank out turn 2 3 drops, your removal becomes crap the longer the game goes. Your sweepers become crap the longer the game goes. You need to start jamming more lands to reliably cast more expensive spells, reducing the effectiveness of delver, ect. Why mess around with that and soft counterspells when you can be proactive with discard, and have solid removal like aburpt decay or swords.
That being said, I also don't think that the stifle/waste tempo plan is a bad one yet, it is clearly still putting out numbers, without completely reinventing the wheel every 2 weeks. Goyf is probably the weakest card in the deck, but it does still serve the function of beater just fine, and I don't think we have a more efficient one, and I don't think TNN really fills that role in a great way. Also TNN out of the board for the miracles MU is still solid for inevitability.
@ That0neguy
Thanks for the input. I really like your read on the current discussion. You bring up two points that I'd like to address:
First, I would suggest players keep Wasteland in their hand until they are going to use it to destroy a land. Otherwise, we're giving ourselves away. Ie, I wouldn't use Waste to play a Tarm or a TNN unless 1. I have to, 2. My opponent is too far ahead for Waste to matter (which is surprisingly infrequent) and, 3. I know my opponent is only playing non-Basics.
This is probably universally understood info and lines of play, so please excuse me if I'm delineating an obvious decision tree.
Second, I don't think, if we're ever to do it, tapping out for a threat is too big a deal...if we do not have Stifle, Brainstorm, or Spell Pierce in hand. Why try to next level our opponent? The best players will just strike through any doubt and play tight no matter what. I used to always leave one blue mana up to put my opponents on tilt. This was because the first 'competitive' deck I played was a Draw-Go that won with Cognivore (I was 12 and it was awesome). I learned quickly to always leave two Blue mana up...even if I didn't have a counterspell in hand. I carried this attitude with me to Canadian Thresh, but I do not believe it is as effective for the deck or for the current competitive Magicscape. Canadian desires a more aggressive route, and if we don't have it...we shouldn't act like we do. This plays in with my views on Gitaxian Probe.
Otherwise, I think you have great points on the ways we might measure when we're pushing Canadian to an ineffective spot, and time may demonstrate that you're absolutely correct about incorrectly pushing certain cards for grindier metas.
Now a question: did you ever bring TNN in against anything other than Miracles? I'm particularly curious about vs. decks w/ Abrupt Decay and Tarms of their own.
I have some issues with your write-up careful mug, mostly in that you appear to be misunderstanding me.
First off, cutting Bolt is very different from cutting Mongoose because U and R both have creatures in their colors but neither has burn spells; Bolt offers something more unique than Mongoose to the deck. Are the other creatures worse in some matchups? Sure, but they're probably better in a few and you pick up points on the mana. The deck is obviously mono-blue, splashing for what it needs; efficient creatures and burn. As Magic ages, the density of efficient creatures in every color will grow, and we may see more decks turning from Tarmogoyf. Lightning Bolt, on the other hand, seems to be where they draw the line.
Regarding the combo issue, I was noting that Mongoose is better than Grim Lavamancer and Young Pyromancer against combo decks, which I stand by. He's not a specifically good card against them, but he's an upgrade over the threats he was being compared to.
Mongoose is great against Miracles... in game 1. Rest in Peace makes sideboarded games a completely different animal, and I'm far more interested in winning those because I will play more of them.
Also, I'm not sure why you think RUG is "in a bad way" right now as it's performed quite reasonably over the past six months, even with Miracles on the rise. I am most interested in the RUG (or UR) deck that will give me an edge against Miracles, and being able to alleviate graveyard reliance helps that, and could be worth moving all-in on. I'm not sure.
EDIT: Forgot to mention it, but it's possible you can afford to switch a fetch or two to duals if you're going to run TNN and Probe, as that increases land density less than a 19th land but significantly. You're making your colors a little worse, but you can theoretically manage sans Tarmogoyf. Just a thought, might bear some actual math to figure out for sure.
Maybe "midrange" RUG isn't better that BUG, but you can't tell so easily that it's a very mediocre deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by that0neguy
At the Grand Prix Paris (1587 players), there is only one RUG Delver wich succeed in going to top 16, and it is more or less a "midrange" list, wich 20 lands and 3CCM threats.
Maciej Fidzinski (11th) Grand Prix Paris 2014
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
If this list manage to do something like 14 win over 16 rounds, it can't be a mediocre deck.
Maybe because sometimes you have a pool of cards to play RUG but not the money to buy the manabase to play BUG / UWR...Quote:
Why mess around with that and soft counterspells when you can be proactive with discard, and have solid removal like aburpt decay or swords.
I think we have to try to find the right path to play RUG as better as possible instead of simply dropping the deck. It will be shame for the format if RUG dies...
@ SecludedGlenn
Thanks you for taking the time to post that. And I must admit something: I barely skimmed the posts directly leading up to my write up. Instead of being most up to date, I was responding directly to your request for reasons why Mongoose is reason enough alone to maintain Green in our mana base (from the post quoted). So, it turns, I did not even have a chance to misunderstand you, as I had not fully read those posts, and for that, I apologize.
I also used the quoted portion from your post as a jumping off point to address several different ideas I had regarding Canadian in general, which I now identify as potentially misleading, so I will directly address the remainder of your most recent post only.
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I agree with your first notion: Lightning Bolt is more unique than Nimble...Red is more unique than Green in what it offers to this blue deck of a skeleton. Simply put, this is why we see UR Delver//Burn and not UG Delver//Beats.
Nonetheless, I believe Nimble Mongoose is the most important reason to play Green in Canadian Threshold. If people wish to cut Green, UR Delver//Burn is an excellent choice and has been for some time. The problem is this is not the place for discussing UR Delver//Burn. (I'm afraid that sounds douchey, as though I'm suggesting you leave. Not my intent at all.) You mention Lightning Bolt being the point at which people refuse to cut. I agree. Our perspectives (may) differ in that Nimble Mongoose is a card, like Lightning Bolt, that I (and argue others should) refuse to cut.
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I agree that Nimble is better than Grim and Pyro against Combo. I had not read the initial post this statement was from.
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I also agree Mongoose is great g1 against Miracles...and, honestly, I believe it's still not bad even if the opponent lands a RiP. Damage is damage against such a slow deck, and it is still better than a 0/1 Tarmogoyf. And I appreciate your philosophy of post-board matchups being more important than pre-board due to sheer volume.
I believe a singleton Krosan Grip is good against a Miracles heavy meta (and is more reason to run Green) and may help some. And, according to That0neGuy, 2x TNN out of the side was pretty nice against Miracles. I'm of the camp curious in the efficacy of assimilating TNN with the rest of the maindeck due to the amount of Miracles being played right now.
In trying to create a better, less graveyard reliant matchup against Miracles, I understand and agree. I believe this is accomplished by replacing Tarmogoyf with TNN, which, incidentally, is also a method of shoring up the grindiness (at least I have) experienced against anything playing Tarm+Abrupt Decay.
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I don't believe I said Canadian is "in a bad way" , but I understand what you're referencing. While Canadian has placed (and won) some recent events, it is currently, were we to speak in absolutes, the 2nd to 3rd best Tempo//Delver deck in the format. Not long ago it was the premier deck, period. While there's been a recent resurgence in high placings, the frequency of these placings has undeniably been in decline.
I believe this is because the format has shifted to become more mid-range dominant and BUG Delver//Miracles being the top dogs reflect this.
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I like your idea about shifting back to the traditional 6 Fetch, 8 Dual configuration, but I think I will maintain the 8 Fetchlands for now for the slightly faster Threshold. In fact, I've thought further, and I am going to maintain 18 land, flat, unless I am using more than 2x 3cmc creatures (right now trying a 2/2 split of Tarm and TNN). Were I to replace more Tarms with TNNs, I would include a 19th land for simple consistency. The moderately lower chance of blind flipping a Delver will have to be tolerated.
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Alright. It's late. If I misunderstood anything again, I apologize. I'm a bit of a dunce. Thanks for keeping me honest and bringing me up to speed on your posts that I'd missed, and expanding on those that I hadn't.
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For the thread, I'm going to leave a decklist I'm testing right now for feedback:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
1 Dismember
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
8 Fetch
6 Dual
4 Waste
Goodnight and good morning.
Edit: Thank you, Akinos, for posting that list.