Thalia Stompy

Awesome twitch :-)
I don't like some line of play against D&T (like TKS the Recruiter instead of Flicker which would be Recruiter target etc), but overlay very positive plays.
Question about SB:

You had a lot of removal Warping Wail 2x, Dismember 1x MD, with additional in SB. Did you tried Blessed Alliance instead of some removal suite ? It works good against overgrowth threads, and works under chalice for 1. Would be great against D&T which has a lot of protections/pumps and TNN which has build in protection.

Try golem & smasher both 2/3 split :-).

And please add Jailer if it's available on MTGO - it's bunkers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Awesome twitch :-)
I don't like some line of play against D&T (like TKS the Recruiter instead of Flicker which would be Recruiter target etc), but overlay very positive plays.
Question about SB:

You had a lot of removal Warping Wail 2x, Dismember 1x MD, with additional in SB. Did you tried Blessed Alliance instead of some removal suite ? It works good against overgrowth threads, and works under chalice for 1. Would be great against D&T which has a lot of protections/pumps and TNN which has build in protection.

Try golem & smasher both 2/3 split :-).

And please add Jailer if it's available on MTGO - it's bunkers.

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Glad you enjoyed! I agree with your line on DnT for sure, just very rusty still :P

I was actually going to test out blessed alliance next in place of some number of the declarations.

As for the golem/smasher split, I really want to pick one and tweak my mana to work that direction. I'll be testing the smasher next though, as I have had success with both cards :P.

In regards to Jailer: I don't play double white cards because my mana simply cannot support it reliably. The deck has a somewhat high fail-rate as is, and I want to minimize that as much as possible. near the beginning of the forum you can see me arguing against it. I believe that City of Traitors is just bonkers and we should be playing 3 copies at least. The power we get from having the maximum number of true sol lands is huge. That being said, the downside is that I really can't reasonably play cards with WW in their cost. As much I will test different cards, that is one thing I will stay consistent on.

Agreed on WW cost it's really restricting - anyway 2-of Jailer MD works great for me - as removal & CA (instead of Portals).

Quick tourney report -- legacy 25k at GP Denver; finished 14th out of around 100, 5-2-1 final record.

Decklist:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Batterskull

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Declaration in Stone

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Round 1: Ashwin / Deathblade

In game one a jailer snagged a baleful strix and a smasher finished him off very quickly. Cavern dropped a TKS which revealed mostly countermagic which was useless. Game two was a grind fest, he swords a TKS and Displacer, and cast a Verdict on a TKS/Jailer and Smasher which had just killed his jace. I had Displacer/Jailer going for a bit and he had to read Jailer as it exiled a SFM, DRS and Strix -- talk about value. After I baited out the verdict (he had hid it with brainstorm but i saw it early) I dropped a SFM fetching batterskull and jitte which closed the game. He kept playing a Leovold but I just karakas bounced it to keep his mana tied down while still drawing for monarch.

1-0, (2-0 in games)

Round 2: Shane / Eureka-Tell

Game one I dropped a Thalia 1.0 and he didn't cast anything other than preordain and lotus petal before dying. Game two a t1 Chalice and t2 cavern'd TKS saw his Eureka, but again he was too slow out of the gates and I overwhelmed him easily.

2-0 (4-0 in games)

Round 3: Justin / Lands

I had played Justin in a small side event yesterday so knew what he was on. Game 1 I T1 Chaliced t2 Thalia 1.0, but then drew 0 other lands. Died with 2x TKS, THC, Jailer, Displacer in hand. Frustrating! Game 2 THC put in a lot of work and he wasn't able to cobble enough together in time to stop the beats. G3 I kept a hand of RIP, Winter Orb, THC, Blessed Alliance, Chalice and 2 non-sol lands. He thoughtseized me twice, then I drew zero more lands the rest of the game. Mana troubles twice in one match! Grrr.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4: Roberto / Elves

Turn 2 chalice, 2x TKS is what my notes said. Tough for elves to beat that. Game 2 was a bit grindier, he decayed a chalice and my Jitte and was able to assemble a huge board. I did a lot of damage to myself with Tombs, and DRS drained me out. Game 3 I went chalice into TKS and won easily.

3-1 (7-3)

Round 5: Kyle / D&T

Game 1 was probably a sloppy keep. I had Warping Wail and THC with something like 3 sol lands, karakas, wasteland -- I don't think I drew another spell all game. Game 2 I kept a hand with a t2 TKS and took his only interaction (STP), then drew zero white sources for the displacers, SFMs, disenchants and Thalias in my hand.

3-2 (7-5)

Round 6: Constantine / D&T

Turn one Smuggler's Copter brought the beats. No joke, it + Thalia 1.0 went the distance. It drew me into a ton of removal though. Game 2 another t1 smugglers copter, followed by Displacer and Jitte. He had me on the back foot with a batterskull that took him to 27 life and me down to 4, but I stabilized with the Displacer and won from there.

4-2 (9-5)

Round 7: Chris / Grixis Delver

Game one I went mox diamond, eldrazi temple go, end step made a scion with warping wail, then topdecked a cavern to cast a turn 2 uncounterable TKS. He stifled the trigger, but I cast a 2nd and won easily. Game 2 I went t1 chalice, t2 Spatial on his tarmogoyf while I still had a chance to kill it, t3 cavern'd TKS. Ancient Tomb did me a lot of damage though, and his t3 TNN was able to outrace me. Game 3 saw another t1 chalice off ancient tomb, followed by a t2, t3, and t4 TKS to beat him down very quickly.

5-2 (11-6)

Round 8: Tim / D&T

Given our positions it was impossible for us to t8, but drawing ensured we would both t16, so we did so. Of course they decided to put the Legacy 25k on the last day of the GP, so the prize wall was completely barren. Hooray for booster boxes of Kaladesh.

5-2-1 (11-6)

Thoughts:

Compared to Eternal Weekend where I ran 2x Revoker/2x Prelate main, the SFMs + Batterskull were all-stars. Having a 2-mana must-kill threat does wonders to bridge the gap to the "late" game of TKS and Smasher. Also it makes our maindeck Jitte all the more powerful.

Copter was great as well. I sided it out quite a bit since it is kind of mid-range grindy, but I absolutely love the filtering it can do, and also the way it turns things like SFM into real threats. The fact that we can easily cast it on T1 basically makes it a super Delver of Secrets for us. Obviously the filtering is great too. The two matches I lost I would've LOVED to have seen Copter, since I was mana flooded/screwed in both.

I know I spoke earlier about Leyline in the SB, but I think we just have to live with playing RIP. It takes up less slots, is almost always a good topdeck, and is better vs things like Shardless. If my meta was like 30% reanimator I would switch, but Leyline is just not versatile enough.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else we can do to improve this deck other than get lucky draws, but I think the results we've put up thusfar prove that the deck is the real deal and is maybe 1-2 new card printings away from deserving "established" or tier status. Cheers.

Evening everyone,

Ran through another 3 leagues yesterday with a few changes:
-2 Revoker
-4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Reality Smasher
+1 Thalia, GoT
+1 Displacer
-2 Caves of Koilos
+1 Cavern of souls
+1 Plains
SB:
-3 Declaration
+3 Blessed Alliance
This brings me to the current list:

Creatures: 22
4 Thalia, GoT
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher

Spells: 12
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
3 RIP
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Disenchant
2 Coercive Portal
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest

So, here are the takeaways:

1. Despite winning the die roll a mere TWO times out of the 15 matches (I just started laughing at one point), the 4x Tomb, 4x City, 3x Mox really let me catch back up fairly consistently (my results were 3-2, 3-2, 4-1). That being said, I could have easily 4-1'ed or 5-0'ed all 3 leagues had I been on the play much. Alright, now that that is out of the way, here goes the rest:

2. Smasher was an all-star all day, even against the unfair decks. Even though I love Lodestone Golem, having an auto 2-for-1 which kills them in 4 turns is just too good. I know many of you were on a split, but I honestly think Smasher is just where you want to be.

3. SFM. One of the things I really wanted to test was how I felt without SFM. And surprisingly, I really did not miss her at all. Having only human and eldrazi as types to name make the deck run much more smoothly, and really minimizes its fail rate.

4. Displacer as a 4-of. I was unsure of this myself, and it may be right to split it into a third splicer, but the card was just so good. It let me make every other creature harder to kill, shut off Sneak and Show, Lands, and just destroys in combat. Once again, many things we all knew already, but the card is just nuts in so many matchups that I am happy to have 4 and then trim from there post-board games.

4. The Sideboard:
a. Coercive portal: This card has been insane in every single match I've boarded it in. destroying miracles with all the extra cards just feels so good, not to mention that it really helps the Shardless matchup, which had previously been a bit of a problem. Card is great. Just play it. It is better than Jailer IMHO.
b. Blessed Alliance: Wow. Just wow. I hadn't had a chance to test the card before, but after ambush blocking 2 creatures and having my opponent sac the third while I gain 4 life, I am not leaving the card at home again. Thanks for the tip Fatal!

5. Matchups:
a. Miracles: the current configuration has made the miracles matchup feel very positive. Pre-board I feel we are likely 60-40, and post board the configuration feels closer to 70-30. Between the smashers, chalices, thorns, 8x Thalia, 2 Portals, and 2 Disenchant to deal with problems, we have all the tools.
b. DnT: I had the chance to jam about 15 matches all day the other day, and pre-board, the matchup does not feel good. That being said, the board helps a ton. Portal, Needle, and dumping the bad cards feels very strong.
c. Combo (belcher, storm, oops, dredge): I was a bit worried dropping the lodestones for this specific reason. That said, by going up to 4 Thalia GoT, and leaving the SB hate, the matchups still feel very favorable.

Once again, the deck is MUCH better on the play, but I feel it has generally positive matchups across the board, losing points primarily to Delver players who have 2x Wasteland hands and know how to use them in combination with counter magic.

Anything you think I missed? I'll likely be trying to stream in the next few days, hopefully getting in about 3 leagues then as well. In the meantime I will be jamming games on MODO.

Take care,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

Creatures: 22
4 Thalia, GoT
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher

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Looks great - It is a lot closer to the white Eldrazi lists that Barook played and I like that this has more pressure as well as huge critters in fair matchups. I also like the splicers which contribute to a good clock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

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This is what I don't like - We should play more Temples. I see that the Cites are good for Chalice etc., but I think this decks thrives from both halves - Eldrazi for the clock and Thalia for the disruption and you are right in playing more Cities, but I think without 3-4 Temples we unnecessarily limit ourselves as long as we only play spells with a single white mana.

I propose this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

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Please play a Copter - It will help in the games where things go south.

How about:
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

a. Miracles: the current configuration has made the miracles matchup feel very positive. Pre-board I feel we are likely 60-40, and post board the configuration feels closer to 70-30. Between the smashers, chalices, thorns, 8x Thalia, 2 Portals, and 2 Disenchant to deal with problems, we have all the tools

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I think this can be directly correlated to the number of must-handle threats. The additional 2 Reality Smashers and 2 Blade Splicers both count as such and are great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

b. DnT: I had the chance to jam about 15 matches all day the other day, and pre-board, the matchup does not feel good. That being said, the board helps a ton. Portal, Needle, and dumping the bad cards feels very strong.

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Maybe with your manabase the Orzhov Pontiffs become a bit difficult to cast and I don't see an easy solution...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

c. Combo (belcher, storm, oops, dredge): I was a bit worried dropping the lodestones for this specific reason. That said, by going up to 4 Thalia GoT, and leaving the SB hate, the matchups still feel very favorable.

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I wouldn't worry as you still have the Thalia/Chalice side and may even add 2 Thorns in the sideboard if needed.

Thanks for the new tech - I think this more bash centric list is a push in the right direction.

@Hofzge: Before I go into the thoughtful and well-written post you made, let me thank you for being so thoughtful and providing alternative numbers as opposed to just criticism. I greatly appreciate it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hofzge

Looks great - It is a lot closer to the white Eldrazi lists that Barook played and I like that this has more pressure as well as huge critters in fair matchups. I also like the splicers which contribute to a good clock.

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Glad we're on the same page. I think many have forgotten (myself included) that this is ultimately a stompy list, and stompy lists need to close games quickly. The only reason a deck like this doesn't need to run Rishadan Port (like DnT) is because it ACTUALLY kills its opponents in a timely fashion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hofzge

This is what I don't like - We should play more Temples. I see that the Cites are good for Chalice etc., but I think this decks thrives from both halves - Eldrazi for the clock and Thalia for the disruption and you are right in playing more Cities, but I think without 3-4 Temples we unnecessarily limit ourselves as long as we only play spells with a single white mana.

I propose this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond

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The issue I have here is that right now I am already lower than the requisite amount of W sources (even if you count all 4 caverns and 3 mox diamonds as true white sources) to reliably have one in my opening hand (by "reliably", I mean 90+% mathematically. At 6 plains +2 Karakas +4 Cavern +3 Mox that means I have a maximum of 15 white sources. That means I have a 88.2% chance of having at least 1 white source in my opening hand. When we go down to 14 sources by trimming a plains we drop to 86.1%. While this may seem small, it is well under where I am comfortable, especially when I am boarding in a plethora of white non-creature spells post-board. I am not saying you are wrong to want to add more Eldrazi Temple. I am simply not comfortable going that low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hofzge

Please play a Copter - It will help in the games where things go south.

How about:
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter

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I am definitely not against Copter. I love the card, but since I cut SFM, I don't believe cutting a Jitte is correct. I could however see trimming a warping wail (as that card has been very luke warm) or even the 1 dismember (because often the life loss is simply worse than just taking the hit and then sticking a displacer). I will likely test 1 copter though, especially with how sweet blade splicer is in combination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hofzge

[In regards to DnT] Maybe with your manabase the Orzhov Pontiffs become a bit difficult to cast and I don't see an easy solution...

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Since it was late at night I guess I didn't go into the depth I wanted to. Pre-board certainly feels a bit rough, but not under 40%. Post board it feels favorable to great due to the number of colorless threats and CA I have post-board (and most importantly, I get to board out 8-10 deadish cards). Post board it feels closer to 60-65% positive, and being on the play makes those numbers considerably higher.

Once again, thank you for the thoughtful response and the alternatives offered. They are definitely something to think about.

Went to a GPT for Louisville this past Sat, only 16 players, thought there would be more people. Oh well. Ran my usual build but changed the sideboard a bit to look like this:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Tempest of Light
1 Serenity
1 Warping Wail

Decided to have a 3rd Warping Wail go hedge against Miracles and other combo decks. I was just trying out the Tempest of Light but never got to side it in all day so I'm not sure if it's needed.

Went 3-1, beating ANT, BUG Control and Burn, losing to Miracles making top 4. Ended up splitting top 4.

Afterthoughts:
- I'm seeing a lot more Ensnaring Bridges in the our local meta. Both BUG Control and Burn sided Bridges against me and I pretty much instant conceded as I didn't expect it. If more decks start running stuff like Bridges, I'm not sure if just three disenchant effects are going to be enough.

I'm not sure if anybody else has thought of this but Reality Smasher has started getting more and more lackluster recently. I was looking at our maindeck and pretty much every non-land card in the deck is some sort of disruption except for the Reality Smashers and it just doesn't really fit the concept of the deck. I'm thinking of replacing -1 Eldrazi Displacer and -2 Reality Smasher for +3 Restoration Angel in the main. Having a creature that can't be decayed or bolted and also provides utility, flies and acts as a trick seems more relevant than just a creature that attacks for a lot. It feels like it'll be a good fit in the deck and I'll be trying this out next tournament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocari79

I'm not sure if anybody else has thought of this but Reality Smasher has started getting more and more lackluster recently. I was looking at our maindeck and pretty much every non-land card in the deck is some sort of disruption except for the Reality Smashers and it just doesn't really fit the concept of the deck. I'm thinking of replacing -1 Eldrazi Displacer and -2 Reality Smasher for +3 Restoration Angel in the main. Having a creature that can't be decayed or bolted and also provides utility, flies and acts as a trick seems more relevant than just a creature that attacks for a lot. It feels like it'll be a good fit in the deck and I'll be trying this out next tournament.

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I think that Is more or less the opposite of my experience - I always wanted more:

against combo you want to close games after having disrupted your opponent
against Control you want hast threats that are hard to "Swords"
against creature matchups you want creatures that cannot be blocked (especially not by TNN)

If you read the post above I more or less argue for more Smashers, so I am entirely not on the same page as you. I also played 4 Smasher this weekend in colorless Eldrazi and it is very often the one thing you want (Swiss Legacy Cup)

On the other hand the Angel is a very solid creature and IF you want to play other creatures please play a:
a) flyer
b) good blocker for Delver
c) creature that provides value with Blade Splicer / against removal
d) creature that is good against Miracles (flash)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hofzge

I think that Is more or less the opposite of my experience - I always wanted more:

against combo you want to close games after having disrupted your opponent
against Control you want hast threats that are hard to "Swords"
against creature matchups you want creatures that cannot be blocked (especially not by TNN)

If you read the post above I more or less argue for more Smashers, so I am entirely not on the same page as you. I also played 4 Smasher this weekend in colorless Eldrazi and it is very often the one thing you want (Swiss Legacy Cup)

On the other hand the Angel is a very solid creature and IF you want to play other creatures please play a:
a) flyer
b) good blocker for Delver
c) creature that provides value with Blade Splicer / against removal
d) creature that is good against Miracles (flash)

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In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EunB

In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.

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Completely agree with the general sentiment. Smasher gets sided out so often to the point that I've often wondered why I play it in the first place. In addition to coming out versus combo, I've been cutting it against D+T, since the hands where you're able to cast 5-drops are the hands where you're winning anyway. The main way you lose versus there is getting Wasteland/Ported out of the game.

That being said, I disagree that Miracles is a great matchup for this deck. We don't have Eye to grind out all their removal, and all of our creatures are in general much slower clocks. At least the way I've been building and playing the deck, it's close to 50/50. Slightly favorable, perhaps. That in and of itself might be a reason to try and find a way to make Smasher better.

As for Restoration Angel, it's a pretty fun idea, but we'd likely want to adjust the MD creature suite a little. Without ways to get value from it, the rate for the body just seems too expensive... Keep in mind 3W for a non-Human, non-Eldrazi creature is probably even harder to cast than Reality Smasher!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iostream

That being said, I disagree that Miracles is a great matchup for this deck. We don't have Eye to grind out all their removal, and all of our creatures are in general much slower clocks. At least the way I've been building and playing the deck, it's close to 50/50. Slightly favorable, perhaps. That in and of itself might be a reason to try and find a way to make Smasher better.

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I think it's more 60-40, I feel favored. Chalice and Cavern cover about 60% of their interaction, and our threats can win the game on their own, we don't need to swarm and play into Terminus. Plus they rarely can interact with Palace Jailer, so we get massive CA. The two Thalias mess them up quite a bit too.

After board, Prelate makes their life worse, and Winter Orb just destroys them. I've yet to lose to Miracles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EunB

In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

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This is true. Smasher is not as reliably castable on turn 3 as in Eldrazi Stompy. I won't argue that. That being said, I would like to address one key point you make here: we are Thalia Stompy. That means we are still a stompy deck. A stompy deck is not designed, nor equipped, to really go long. We want enough disruption to ruin our opponents' first few turns, then finish them off before they regain composure. Smasher does that better than any other card. It hits harder, faster, and is harder to remove than any other threat we have access to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EunB

As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

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Once again, I won't say that it feels good to draw mono 4 and 5-drops in your opener. This goes back to why I argue against running Palace Jailer at all. A 4-mana 2/2 that makes our mana actively worse and forces us away from extra sol lands makes the deck feel like a bad DnT list, not a stompy list. I know, because I love DnT and played it for 3+ years competitively. The deck runs much smoother in my current configuration, which is the biggest struggle I have had thus far: making the deck run smoothly. Will it have a certain percentage of fail rate due to the nature of a stompy deck? Absolutely. Is that a risk you take in playing the deck? Yes. Does that mean we would put clunky cards in our main board to detract from our nut draws of T1 Thalia, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher? No. Those nut draws are what make the deck a contender IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EunB

In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

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Depending on the Combo matchup, I may agree or disagree. Currently my configurations go like this:
Storm:
In: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -1 Dismember, -2 Jitte, -2 Displacer
Dredge: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -2 Splicer, -2 TKS, -1 Smasher
Sneak and Show:
In: +2 Thorn, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Disenchant
Out: -2 Jitte, -1 Dismember, -2 Blade Splicer, -1 Smasher

So, yes, Smasher is not always great, but giving our opponents infinite time is just plain bad. That's why you just run him out and kill them.

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Originally Posted by EunB

Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.

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Once again, I would argue we simply shouldn't be playing Jailer. While it is good against miracles, they can often flash in a clique, hit us, and then terminus. Without Smasher, this means that we may never be king again, and just gave them a one-sided howling mine. Coercive portal is much harder for them to get rid of, we can run it out on 2 or 3, and beat them senseless with big Eldrazi (such as smasher). Since I would argue Miracles is also a good matchup pre-board, I don't think hamstringing our mana is close to worth it for a 4-mana 2/2.

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

This is true. Smasher is not as reliably castable on turn 3 as in Eldrazi Stompy. I won't argue that. That being said, I would like to address one key point you make here: we are Thalia Stompy. That means we are still a stompy deck. A stompy deck is not designed, nor equipped, to really go long. We want enough disruption to ruin our opponents' first few turns, then finish them off before they regain composure. Smasher does that better than any other card. It hits harder, faster, and is harder to remove than any other threat we have access to.

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Most stompy decks aren't equipped to go long, but we are. That's why I like this deck better than the other kinds. Displacer is like the king of the end-game, and he's one of the best cards in our deck. In my experience playing the deck, I don't see a huge need to immediately end the game. I often keep non-sol land hands and win by grinding the match out. The nut draws can end stuff quickly, but we don't need the nut draw to win.

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Once again, I won't say that it feels good to draw mono 4 and 5-drops in your opener. This goes back to why I argue against running Palace Jailer at all. A 4-mana 2/2 that makes our mana actively worse and forces us away from extra sol lands makes the deck feel like a bad DnT list, not a stompy list. I know, because I love DnT and played it for 3+ years competitively. The deck runs much smoother in my current configuration, which is the biggest struggle I have had thus far: making the deck run smoothly. Will it have a certain percentage of fail rate due to the nature of a stompy deck? Absolutely. Is that a risk you take in playing the deck? Yes. Does that mean we would put clunky cards in our main board to detract from our nut draws of T1 Thalia, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher? No. Those nut draws are what make the deck a contender IMO.

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Yes, smoothing out the deck is the primary weakness right now -- it appears we are going different directions, I'm adding in curve reducers like SFM and Copter and you are going toward more sol lands and big threats. If you look back a couple pages I was at the same mindset, trying to go back to the "stompy" roots and playing 12 sol lands and 4 smashers. It didn't work out for me, so maybe it's just playstyle difference or I'm not as lucky as you ;)

To me, because we are a hybrid, we should not try to be as pure of stompy as it's a losing battle. I think if a deck wants to play chalice and 4 smasher that regular eldrazi does that better. If we are focusing on nut draw, our nut can never beat theirs of mimics into tks into smasher.

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Depending on the Combo matchup, I may agree or disagree. Currently my configurations go like this:
Storm:
In: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -1 Dismember, -2 Jitte, -2 Displacer
Dredge: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -2 Splicer, -2 TKS, -1 Smasher
Sneak and Show:
In: +2 Thorn, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Disenchant
Out: -2 Jitte, -1 Dismember, -2 Blade Splicer, -1 Smasher

So, yes, Smasher is not always great, but giving our opponents infinite time is just plain bad. That's why you just run him out and kill them.

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I think a t1 or t2 Thalia 1.0 followed by any of our other threats like Displacer is just as good of a clock vs combo. I've never really had a problem killing them, at least. I've played entire games vs combo with a smasher in hand where I or they died before I ever cast it. Running more City of Traitors can help with that problem, but cities are such a liability vs D&T I find it to be nearly unplayable.

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Once again, I would argue we simply shouldn't be playing Jailer. While it is good against miracles, they can often flash in a clique, hit us, and then terminus. Without Smasher, this means that we may never be king again, and just gave them a one-sided howling mine. Coercive portal is much harder for them to get rid of, we can run it out on 2 or 3, and beat them senseless with big Eldrazi (such as smasher). Since I would argue Miracles is also a good matchup pre-board, I don't think hamstringing our mana is close to worth it for a 4-mana 2/2.

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Just as often as they can flash in clique, they often will not have it and get buried in card advantage. I think as players we can be smart to judge if it's a good time to run out Jailer, obviously running it out without thinking will be poor. Coercive Portal is only marginally harder for them to get rid of as they are boarding in Wear/Tear vs us anyway for Chalice. Jailer is so broken with Displacer that I will just have to disagree as to whether or not it should be played. I don't play online, only in paper, so maybe the meta is different, but Jailer is very very good in every tournament I've taken it to.

As a meta comment: It's interesting that on page 15 we lead a huge discussion about what the deck should be or is for every one of us :laugh:

on topic: I liked Jailer against miracles, but I think that ultiomately it is a bit cute there and :w::w: is hard for the manabase IF you play more than 2 Smashers.

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Originally Posted by iostream

As for Restoration Angel, it's a pretty fun idea, but we'd likely want to adjust the MD creature suite a little. Without ways to get value from it, the rate for the body just seems too expensive... Keep in mind 3W for a non-Human, non-Eldrazi creature is probably even harder to cast than Reality Smasher!

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My reasoning for Restoration Angel is to have something to save your creatures from removal, not necessarily trying to get extra value from our existing creatures. The dream is to try to flicker a Thought-Knot Seer with a Terminus miracle trigger on the stack with the angel. This slot could totally be something else, I just wanted to think of something decent to replace Reality Smasher with.

I disagree with the angel being harder to cast. I mean, you have 6 plains, 2 karakas and 4 mox diamonds that can make white. If you can cast Palace Jailer, then you can definitely cast Restoration Angel.

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Originally Posted by EunB

Coercive Portal is only marginally harder for them to get rid of as they are boarding in Wear/Tear vs us anyway for Chalice.

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And that is specifically why Coercive Portal is so much harder for them to get rid of than Jailer. They run 4 STP, and 3-4 Terminus, all of which answer it, in addition to Snapcaster Mage in some lists, as opposed to maybe 2 wear//tear and possibly 1 Council's Judgment? On top of that, we are already stressing those wear//tears to cover our 4 Chalices, 2 Portals, 2 Thorns, and heck, sometimes they even need to kill a Golem. They may have wear//tear, but they are unlikely going to be able to save it. And if they have to fuse it (like an opponent did the other day vs. myself) they have to kill their own CB to do so. Noncreature threats have, and always will be, the strongest answers to Miracles and Shardless BUG.

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk

And that is specifically why Coercive Portal is so much harder for them to get rid of than Jailer. They run 4 STP, and 3-4 Terminus, all of which answer it, in addition to Snapcaster Mage in some lists, as opposed to maybe 2 wear//tear and possibly 1 Council's Judgment? On top of that, we are already stressing those wear//tears to cover our 4 Chalices, 2 Portals, 2 Thorns, and heck, sometimes they even need to kill a Golem. They may have wear//tear, but they are unlikely going to be able to save it. And if they have to fuse it (like an opponent did the other day vs. myself) they have to kill their own CB to do so. Noncreature threats have, and always will be, the strongest answers to Miracles and Shardless BUG.

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The point is that Jailer keeps drawing you cards even if they remove it. You stay the monarch.

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Originally Posted by pocari79

My reasoning for Restoration Angel is to have something to save your creatures from removal, not necessarily trying to get extra value from our existing creatures. The dream is to try to flicker a Thought-Knot Seer with a Terminus miracle trigger on the stack with the angel. This slot could totally be something else, I just wanted to think of something decent to replace Reality Smasher with.

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Isn't that what Displacer is for though?

If I had to replace Smasher completely I'd probably add in something like Gideon, AoZ.

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Originally Posted by EunB

Isn't that what Displacer is for though?

If I had to replace Smasher completely I'd probably add in something like Gideon, AoZ.

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I dunno, Displacer seems like one of the best cards in the deck. If I could, I might run more than 4...