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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
I have been fiddling around with my thresh build a lot over the past couple of weeks. I haven't really been able to get online, but now that I have the chance I'd like to show my results. I will start with my list from sunday.
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool (Not tech by the way)
4 Strand
2 Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Swords
4 FoW
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
1 Quirion Dryad
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Portent
2 Predict
2 Mental Note
2 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
3 Daze
Sideboard
3 Krosun Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Armageddon
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Tivadars Crusade
1 Tividar
1 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
Ok, now on to the winning
Round 1
Tim playing Mono Black "old school" something
This is kind of discouraging. I had tested this new build and it was really good. He is playing Leige of the Pit, which I prevented both times it was presented. Maindeck Withered Wretch put a dent in my thresh plan. He beat me down with zombies 2 out of 3 games. The game that I won was awesome though. I got Dryad turn 2 and turn 3/4 chained cantrips for the win. He scooped when she was a 6/6.
lost 2-1
0-1
Round 2
I play John with a janky combo deck.
He takes game 1 because I found no Land or answers, he beat me with a 1/1 for like 5 turns. Game 2 was all mine. I get Dryad again, but she was a little late. Oh well, I also drew my other singleton Sweet ass Enforcer! BEAT DOWN.
I take game 3 too, this time he killed my Dryad, but I took him down with 2 Mongeese and a Meddling Mage.
Won 2-1
1-1
Round 3
I play Brad with a Red Loam deck.
He was having a bad day. He was 0-2 when he played me. He dropped when I beat him. Game 1 he had one land for three turns and I was dropping creatures all the while. first turn mongoose, second turn Dryad. It was another amazing game where I got everything I needed, Enforcer and all. Game 2 I lost because I was mana screwed again, I had to take damage off of both the Breeding Pools. Game three he got me to 1 life and I still won WITHOUT WORSHIP:smile: Another well placed enforcer and 4/4 dryad.
NOTE: Predict came completely out after this tournament for a 4th counterspell and went back to the 3rd mental note. I missed it a lot. I found that some games I didnt have thresh until I was already winning or losing badly.
So I went into Semi-Finals with a 2-1 record, and ended up playing Bane. We played it out, and I won 2-1. I wont bore you with that though, because he already covered it SOO
On to the Finals
I played against Welder Survival, I really thought I could win this. Game one I lose beause I couldn't. with all the cantrips in this deck draw an answer to Survival or Welder. He Sundering Titans my lands and kills me with it. Game 2 I put a Mage on Survival and a Needle on Welder and win. Game three, I have no Answer to Survival, He plays a Welder, It gets Swordszd, He plays another and I die
I got a type 2 dual land and a great idea for a new deck. stay tuned. its coming to the N&D soon
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bardo
In the abstract, yes. But in a deck built around tempo, concepts like "card quality" or "card advantage" are deceptively complex, since the deck is more than willing to sacrifice card advantage (or quality) for board superiority, for instance.
Again, I'm not addressing the viability of Portent a whole, I just think it's weak when you're relying on Dryad--who wants you to draw and cast as many spells as possible in your own turn.
I guess that logic does work in a deck like this.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
I guess that logic does work in a deck like this.
Another example of this is Mental Note. At face value, Note appears to be a terrible, terrible card--unfit for anything other than an Odyssey block Threshold/Flashback deck. In other words, it's out of place in Legacy, at best; and really awful, at worst. But in an aggressive tempo deck that would rather win sooner than later, Mental Note is immensely flexible in allowing Threshold going to go into turbo-beatdown mode on turn 3. Again, in the abstract, that seems "nice" but isn't necessarily worth trading off "card quality" for it. But in practice, against a deck like Goblins where Threshold needs to win quickly or not win at all--Mental Note becomes surpisingly attractive. Even against Threshold stronger match-ups like High Tide and IGGy Pop, a little disruption goes a long way, but Threshold's largest threat against these deck is disruption plus its aggresive clock. And facing something like IGGy Pop, I'd much, much rather be swinging for 7 on turn 3 or 4 than 2.
Again, that's another place where the odd logic of "seemingly sub-optimal" cards in this deck is stronger than "abstractly better" cards.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bardo
Another example of this is Mental Note. At face value, Note appears to be a terrible, terrible card--unfit for anything other than an Odyssey block Threshold/Flashback deck. In other words, it's out of place in Legacy, at best; and really awful, at worst. But in an aggressive tempo deck that would rather win sooner than later, Mental Note is immensely flexible in allowing Threshold going to go into turbo-beatdown mode on turn 3. Again, in the abstract, that seems "nice" but isn't necessarily worth trading off "card quality" for it. But in practice, against a deck like Goblins where Threshold needs to win quickly or not win at all--Mental Note becomes surpisingly attractive. Even against Threshold stronger match-ups like High Tide and IGGy Pop, a little disruption goes a long way, but Threshold's largest threat against these deck is disruption plus its aggresive clock. And facing something like IGGy Pop, I'd much, much rather be swinging for 7 on turn 3 or 4 than 2.
Again, that's another place where the odd logic of "seemingly sub-optimal" cards in this deck is stronger than "abstractly better" cards.
Actually, I see Mental Note as more of a way for this deck to acheive the Midgame role of this deck much quicker, as it allows the creatures in this deck to start controlling the board. I do however like seeing Mental Note being used against Combo decks, as it pressures them so much that they cant do very much about it, but set off right there.
Shouldn't we say the samething about Portent as well? Of course, you have to play the Control role rather than the Tempo role. I found that Portent wont get you Threshold fast enough, but it can help you get those answers really nicely. Against Goblins, Goblins tends to just trade some of their guys with your guys and take you into midgame, where Dazes become weaker, and Mental Note will be unable to find you additional creatures to add into the board. Goblins does a very good job at trading creatures with you and making sure they win the attrition war. Threshold can easily do the same, but it all depends on the efficientcy of each card and draw they make. Portent does that for you.
Besides, Portent synergizes with Meddling Mage and Mental Note really well. Besides, I see really great promise of Portent being ran side-by-side with Mental Note, as one can help you keep getting Counters and Answers while you go beatdown with Mental Notes. I truely dont see any flaws in those two cards being ran together in the same deck. Portent can also act as a pseudo-lock card, and Meddling Mage can also add on.
Anyways, have you tested Portent before? It has many functions, and if used right, it can easily win you the game. Mr. Nightmare proved it's been doing very well for him, but it seems to be goind down a little.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-American
Shouldn't we say the samething about Portent as well? Of course, you have to play the Control role rather than the Tempo role. I found that Portent wont get you Threshold fast enough, but it can help you get those answers really nicely.
I'll be honest, whenever I see the word "control," I can't help but read it as "slow." Slow isn't necessarily bad (as in a slow format), but in a really fast format, I think Portent is at odds with rate of development (tempo) of Legacy.
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Against Goblins, Goblins tends to just trade some of their guys with your guys and take you into midgame, where Dazes become weaker, and Mental Note will be unable to find you additional creatures to add into the board. Goblins does a very good job at trading creatures with you and making sure they win the attrition war. Threshold can easily do the same, but it all depends on the efficientcy of each card and draw they make. Portent does that for you.
I disagree with you on your assessment of the Goblins match. Goblins will win the attrition war. Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, Crypt, Vial. All of create an awful lot of card and power advantage and Threshold will most likely lose games that it can't handle Goblins from the start. There are occasions when Threshold will topdeck and resolve a mid-game Tivadar's Crusade (through Wasteland/Port) and Goblins will go on to draw into a land glut, but I wouldn't count on that.
So yeah, Threshold and Goblins will trade 1-for-1 in the early game, but Goblins has inevitability and will eventually win if it isn't forced to lose. That's where I think Mental Note is overwhelming superior, since Tormod's Crypt is often an auto-loss, so you need a way to recover from that and you'll also need something burly to put Goblins on defense in the early game. The best way for Threshold to win is to establish and maintain offensive initiative from the start.
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Besides, Portent synergizes with Meddling Mage and Mental Note really well.
These are "gravy plays." That is, cool, but not the reason to play them (like Mental Note + Brainstorm = gravy). Duress and Meddling Mage is an actively strong play; Portent and Meddling Mage seems weak, though it will occassionally give you a good result. And if you don't like your Portent cards, you don't need to Note them away.
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I truely dont see any flaws in those two cards being ran together in the same deck. Portent can also act as a pseudo-lock card, and Meddling Mage can also add on.
I agree that there aren't any reason these cards don't interact well, I just don't really agree with your reasoning.
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Anyways, have you tested Portent before? It has many functions, and if used right, it can easily win you the game.
Honestly, only a little. I had two in my deck back in the summer before I dismissed them for being "occasionally cool but too slow and not helping me in the matches I needed help." I haven't ran them since.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
I play Portent and MN. I wanted to test out all of the cantrips I could. I did end up having all 3 Portent, Predict, and Mental Note, but It was bad, kinda. I like Portent. It is kind of slow, but it works. i ended up taking out Predict because it was a sitting duck in too many games. Did anyone read my tourney report? bane said that it wasnt showing up for him, so just in case that happened for everyone, try to check it out... thanks.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bardo
I'll be honest, whenever I see the word "control," I can't help but read it as "slow." Slow isn't necessarily bad (as in a slow format), but in a really fast format, I think Portent is at odds with rate of development (tempo) of Legacy.
Portent is slow I admit, but they should be cast 1st out of all your cantrips, as they will find you those Dazes, FoWs, Needles, and Removal for the early game. Portent is ther to find you answers, cantrips, and threats. Portent isnt limiting you from playing the Tempo role, but rather supporting it with backed up disruption or additional threats.
I
Quote:
disagree with you on your assessment of the Goblins match. Goblins will win the attrition war. Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, Crypt, Vial. All of create an awful lot of card and power advantage and Threshold will most likely lose games that it can't handle Goblins from the start. There are occasions when Threshold will topdeck and resolve a mid-game Tivadar's Crusade (through Wasteland/Port) and Goblins will go on to draw into a land glut, but I wouldn't count on that.
So yeah, Threshold and Goblins will trade 1-for-1 in the early game, but Goblins has inevitability and will eventually win if it isn't forced to lose. That's where I think Mental Note is overwhelming superior, since Tormod's Crypt is often an auto-loss, so you need a way to recover from that and you'll also need something burly to put Goblins on defense in the early game. The best way for Threshold to win is to establish and maintain offensive initiative from the start.
If you counter the right Goblins and force through early enough to make you the beatdown against them, then yes, they do have a clock on their hands. Portent simply gets answers, and makes sure your midgame is in your favor. Sometimes you want those Needles. Adding more cantrips will mazimize your chances of finding those Needles.
I was never really into Tivadar's Crusade, as I like Stifles and Hydroblasts much more, as they arent as much of a strain on your mana base, since LD can seriously wreck your chances of getting those Crusades. I also like the flexibility of those two card choices, as you can side them in against Combo and other forms of Red Deck Wins variants as well!
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I agree that there aren't any reason these cards don't interact well, I just don't really agree with your reasoning.
I will honestly admit, those plays dont pop up that often, but I will point out that Portent fills in a few gaps this deck is missing. This deck sometimes draws dead, and the chances of minimizing it is by adding more Cantrips. Portent isnt specifically aimed at helping you play the aggro role (unless you need counter back-up), but to help you through the early game to answer every troublesome threat.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.
Problems with that? This deck is still flawed. You say it's concluded through personal preference. Adding in additional cantrips do change match-ups a lot you know. This deck still has a ton of problems, and the optimal lists are still somewhat undecided.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
Problems with that? This deck is still flawed. You say it's concluded through personal preference. Adding in additional cantrips do change match-ups a lot you know. This deck still has a ton of problems, and the optimal lists are still somewhat undecided.
Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that. What are you having problems getting the deck to do? Win? If you maybe you need to playtest more. If the problem is hate coming down on the deck then switch to a similar strategy with different weaknesses such as EBA or Gro.
I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that. What are you having problems getting the deck to do? Win? If you maybe you need to playtest more. If the problem is hate coming down on the deck then switch to a similar strategy with different weaknesses such as EBA or Gro.
I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.
What are the problems I have with the deck?
None, I'm just here to support the fact that adding more cantrips into the deck can help the deck's flexibility.
Win?
I win a lot with the deck, thank you very much. I just want to make people realize how good Portent is, and luckily, a small amount of players have agreed with me.
If you want me to look at the history of Top 8s, I see at 4 decks in those Top 8's that dont look janky and run Portent. The reason why I am saying Threshold is flawed is because we have not concluded on a solid optimal build of Thresh at the moment, though we do, all we can do is call them variants. One of my motives here is to convince people that Predict Thresh and Mental Note Thresh are different variants of the deck, and should have two different sections in order to further the development on these variants. You dont see Cron Stax, Uba Stax, and 5c Stax discussed in the same thread?
Chalice of the Void already wrecks this deck. You should just stop trying to make this deck play around it if Chalice resolves, and actually answer the damn card. Bardo suggested Engineered Explosives, and I think that's a pretty damn good card against them. Engineered Explosives can also ensure that you have somewhat of a comeback against Hanni Fish and the like.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.
"Personal preference" isn't really meaningful in Magic. There is an optimal list for any deck in any metagame, and a player's preferences have nothing to do with winning percentages.
What we have here is a debate that is very difficult to resolve due to similarities between the cards involved and the indirectness in which they affect games; this does not mean we should stop discussing it.
I still play Portent and avoid Mental Note, because I think having greater control over the cards I draw wins more games than fast threshold does. It is the nature of this problem that it is difficult to prove this, but my point here is that game win percentage is the sole basis for my card choices. Never should anything so irrelevent as personal "preference" or "playstyle" figure into anyone's reasoning when building a deck.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
But playstile or preference DOES play a role in this case.
You for example(you are Alix Hatfield?) always play the build with 2 Enforcers,4 Bears,4 Nimble Geese and 16 Cantrips, 3 Needles etc.
It's more like Control.
I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).
But i would say it gives the deck a more aggressive touch.
But both cards suck when they are played randomly, so they both require a cantrip before they are played.
But I also think that the cantrip-question is a littlebit...irrelevant.
Since I read what you wrote beforce about Portent, it is indeed the best Cantrip AFTER Brainstorm, because it reveals you up to 5 cards until the next main phase ( reveal 3, shuffle, upkeep draw, drawphase draw ). This quite useful to know. I think it's the best cantrip you can play in Turn 1, especially when you're seeking a land.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Its just based off of preference, thats all.
No. There are objectively better configurations than others. The better builds will win more; the worse builds, for a particular metagame, will lose more. That's what this all boils down to.
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Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that.
Just because a deck is doing well, shouldn't give you confidence that it can't do better. That kind of complancency and inertia is why people complain there's no innovation in the format, or that it's stagnant, etc.
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Originally Posted by Ob Freely
"Personal preference" isn't really meaningful in Magic. There is an optimal list for any deck in any metagame, and a player's preferences have nothing to do with winning percentages.
Word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
But playstile or preference DOES play a role in this case.
Again, no. The best players make decisions that they think will enhance their win percentages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).
But i would say it gives the deck a more aggressive touch.
Indeed, but again this isn't a "stylistic whimsy," Mr Nightmare's build is constructed with the mind that it's the best build he can run for that metagame.
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But I also think that the cantrip-question is a littlebit...irrelevant.
No one is obliged to contribute. If you don't have anything to add, then don't. If you'd like to steer the discussion somewhere else, go right ahead.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).
While I may have played using Predict had I had mine at the time, the ultimate decision to run Mental Note was definately not based on personal preference. This was the first tournament when Coldsnap was legal, and Jotun Grunt made Mental Note worth running. Even if I had run Predict instead, I still felt running 14 cantrips was correct, and that MD Meddling Mage was correct in that meta. These aren't deciions made arbitrarily, they're made with the intent of playing the best deck to win a tournament with.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Ok well should we discuss Predict vs Mental Note in the post Coldsnap world then? Here's my diagnostic opinion.
1) Grunty
Jotun Grunt is out there in maindecks now. Aside from the common Tormod's Crypt in sideboards you now have to hold reserve means of thresh to regain the game. Holding a fetchland and a note goes along way getting you back into the game vs this hate.
2) Setup
Aside from incredible mising, Predict wont draw you 2 cards unless you setup with another cantrip. Do you really want to pay 2 to mill one and draw one? This turns the card into a FoW friend or something to clutch in hand until the random cantrip comes along to help. Mental Note on the other hand always does what its suppose to in no regards to what else has been played or if you have the consecutive mana/turns to setup. It always gets you half way to thresh and also replaces itself.
3) Speed
This might be a meta choice but as mentioned above there are times when you want white thresh to play either a more controlish or aggro role. I think speed is of the essence when dealing with a goblin heavy metagame. We all know gobs isnt the best match in the world and its only gotten worse since Ib was printed (incase you guys havent playtested that much) You need to grab the game by the balls very early against gobs to get the win. That requires faster threshold. Faster threshold? Note.
4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.
These are reasons in my personal opinion, in regards to endless playtesting against threshold. This is not to say Portent is a strong card or not because we've used it on and off, but imo you need Mental Note in at least a meta like mine.
The numbers the deck has put up are based on the contention of current builds and players. It doesnt have any problems that I can see. Im not saying we should stifle discussion on improving the deck but I think we've bantered enough over the viability of either option.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.
I can't agree with this at all. Having too many draw spells in Thresh is one of the best situations not the worst. It means that you will find in a very short amount of time the card you are looking for. It means you don't have to worry about Threshold because you will naturally generate it without having to resort to Mental Note. I've lost with Thresh, but rarely because I drew too many draw spells.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnwarA101
I can't agree with this at all. Having too many draw spells in Thresh is one of the best situations not the worst. It means that you will find in a very short amount of time the card you are looking for. It means you don't have to worry about Threshold because you will naturally generate it without having to resort to Mental Note. I've lost with Thresh, but rarely because I drew too many draw spells.
I didnt really state what certain amount was too many. Obviously you cant get the best of both worlds. Some numbers of Predicts and Portents in addition to the normal 8 cantrips is alot of card draw. Mental Note being cantrips 9-12 isnt as much card draw. Some people try to fit 16 1cc cantrips, ect. All Im saying is that adding cantrips isnt necessarily the best way to improve an already impressive deck. Especially when fightng forms of hate that target your mana curve.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
I didnt really state what certain amount was too many. Obviously you cant get the best of both worlds. Some numbers of Predicts and Portents in addition to the normal 8 cantrips is alot of card draw. Mental Note being cantrips 9-12 isnt as much card draw. Some people try to fit 16 1cc cantrips, ect. All Im saying is that adding cantrips isnt necessarily the best way to improve an already impressive deck. Especially when fitting forms of hate that target your mana curve.
Actually... your wrong. Running more cantrips give you stronger access to your SB, especially if you run 1-2 copies of each card. Running more Cantrips makes you less reliant on Mage in the Combo match up. 16 Cantrips give you a strong card selection. Chalice of the Void already kills your deck. You cant play Mental Note, you can play Serum Visions, you cant play your Brainstorms, you cant play your Geese, and you cant play your Swords. Adding more cantrips give you a better match-up against Goblins. In midgame when you have a Mental Note sitting there ready to pitch to FoW, whereas, with a Portent, you can just play it to find more answers. Also, once you get the cantrip chain going, you can easily set-up Predicts very consistently. Running more Cantrips also help you recover you mana base, or replace lands in your mana base.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
I should have answered these questions. I guess debating makes development go further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
Ok well should we discuss Predict vs Mental Note in the post Coldsnap world then? Here's my diagnostic opinion.
1) Grunty
Jotun Grunt is out there in maindecks now. Aside from the common Tormod's Crypt in sideboards you now have to hold reserve means of thresh to regain the game. Holding a fetchland and a note goes along way getting you back into the game vs this hate.
So can a Chain of Cantrips. I have faced Grunt many times, and whenever they make an attempt to strip me of Thresh, they're making my Card Quality much better, as well as a way for me to find more lands, cantrips, men, and answers. They take Threshold away from me, I play a couple cantrips and a Predict.
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2) Setup
Aside from incredible mising, Predict wont draw you 2 cards unless you setup with another cantrip. Do you really want to pay 2 to mill one and draw one? This turns the card into a FoW friend or something to clutch in hand until the random cantrip comes along to help. Mental Note on the other hand always does what its suppose to in no regards to what else has been played or if you have the consecutive mana/turns to setup. It always gets you half way to thresh and also replaces itself.
What?? Since when has Mental Note found you an answer? Predict is, I admit a FoW friend, but only if you make it dead by ending your chain of cantrips. When this deck creates a chain of cantrips, Predict helps it keep going.
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3) Speed
This might be a meta choice but as mentioned above there are times when you want white thresh to play either a more controlish or aggro role. I think speed is of the essence when dealing with a goblin heavy metagame. We all know gobs isnt the best match in the world and its only gotten worse since Ib was printed (incase you guys havent playtested that much) You need to grab the game by the balls very early against gobs to get the win. That requires faster threshold. Faster threshold? Note.
Well, let's see. Goblins can just trade some guys with you, and make sure you dont kill them. Playing Mental Note is another way for you to stop finding answers, and just swing with a couple guys? Look, like I said, Goblins has an endless chain of Goblins, if you play Mental Note, your chain ends there, and then you will have trouble finding answers to things like Ringleader. Playing Portent and Predict just means you can still find answers to Goblins, through late game if they make some rediculous topdeck.
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4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.
Wait... Cantripping into more cantrips does do something. The Predict build has only 16 Cantrips, and that isnt a lot. Would you call a Type 1 deck like Meandeck Gifts pointless if all it does is improve Card Quality? Let's see, Meandeck Gifts runs 4 Brainstorms, 4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Mystical Tutor, 4 Gifts Ungiven, Burning Wish, and 1 Fact or Fiction. That's 15 cards that improve card quality, and you call that deck useless? It gets everything it needs, and Tutors for Win Conditions as well as answers to protect it's win conditions. That's exactly what Portent and Predict does if you throw it into the mix. i know Cantrips arent Tutors, but they cansomewhat be compared.
