It's not awful if you can't it as a spell, but if you count it as a land it's going to cause you to mulligan sometimes.
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It's not awful if you can't it as a spell, but if you count it as a land it's going to cause you to mulligan sometimes.
I like tomb as the 10th land, but i honestly haven't activated it once.
Anyway I have been running 3 warrens since i picked the deck up and they are amazing, especialyl against thresh. I'm also happy to see chant out of the maindeck. I never thought it deserved a slot in the main, but during the days of flash we had to adapt somehow. Other than that i dropped the 3 cabal rituals and 1 plunge for 4 simian spirit guides in the new list and I like the way the deck runs. There are times when cabal ritual is better than a ssg but the ssg gives you so many more options when it comes to turn 1 and 2 kills.
The changes to the sideboard are great too. REB is nuts. I'm not running any chants in the board and am running an infernal contract and earthquake. I really wish i still had room for confidant though since he is a house against discard. I am thinking about cutting the sprees down to one as i don't always know if people are even bringing in chalices. For example most of the goblin decks i've played against only have pillar in the board and I will bring in sprees for no reason. I think having confidant in the baord to improve a weak matchup seems better than having sprees which are only to answer combo hate which you might not even run into. If i do this i can run 3 bob's and cut the earthquake and 2 spree's
Eh, I did some threshold testing and found that I missed Orim's Chant too much and cut Tomb of Urami and a Simian Spirit Guide for 2 Orim's chant. The card is too huge in the aggro control matchups. I'm also currently playing Goblin War Strike and a Cruel Bargain in the two empty slots in the sideboard.
EDIT IN RESPONCE TO BREATHWEAPONS POST- I don't know if the difference between 9 and 10 land is a huge deal generally speaking. You rarely keep a hand with Tomb of Urami as your only permanent mana source do you? Also, If worst comes to worst I go to 2 Simian Spirit Guide and put Tomb of Urami back in.
One of the biggest problems I'm facing at the moment is whether or not using less than 10 lands leads to a significant increase in mulligans for the deck. The general rule of thumb I use is that a deck should use an average of 8 lands if it wants to draw one land, an average of 15 lands if it wants to draw two lands and then add 2 to each number for 10 lands and 17 lands in order to ensure drawing one land and two lands and to increase the odds of drawing two lands and three lands off of Brainstorm.
I don't think that using Simian Spirit Guide as a justification for removing lands from the MD works when the deck needs to set up with either Brainstorm, Xantid Swarm, Burning Wish or Plunge into Darkness.
On a side note, all of these people using Spell Snare over Stifle in their MDs are like our new best friends, Empty the Warrens wrecks them so hard for it.
That’s about right. I have it in as a 11th land. I fucking love this damn card. If the deck is an museum, Tomb is the fantastic miniature that goes under looked among all the more impressive displays. But it is so friggin' cool. 'Cause what deck doesn’t really mind sacking all their land? TES. What deck can generate the necessary mana on turn 3 when it counts? TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I played a bunch of games yesterday. In fully two of them Urami was the finisher. One where I was only able to tendrils for 5 on turn two (wish getting striped from my hand my hand, brainstorm protecting my LED) But I was able to pop the tomb that turn as well. and win on my 4th turn. This was playing against agro loam. Warrens would have lost me the game there. Mongrels and Rootwallas would have blocked goblins and Volcanic eruption is really bad for the damage count, but Urami demands two be pointed at his head. with me at 30 on turn two I just sat back took my beatings and flew over for the win.
Another I stormed out for 7 on a warrens, and they died like flies to eruption and blockers, but Urami came out the following turn and smashed in for the win.
Further tendrils or ETW would not have won these games. I suppose this proves that Tomb is good against Agro loam, but I think this logic stands for the goblins match as well. It has been said goblins is a good match up, but I am yet to test it. I tend to agree based on my testing vs. agro loam.
Agro loam (the version I was testing against anyway) has good board vs. TES. He had 3 main deck Therapies, another in the side, as well as 2 delirium skins. Those are a problem. Winning game one is ok, but going on the draw game two and getting skeined on his turn 2 off a mox diamond while taking a savage mongrel beat is a house. Twas glorious.
Anywho... I tested Tendo Ice bridge. Skip it. I found myself wanting undiscovered back in so bad. I lost 2 games to it I would have won if paradise was there in short order.
I find Tomb of Urami(s) most effective as a SB tool to bring in against decks that use Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade, Pyroclasm and Sandstorm instead of Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Enginered Explosives and Powder Keg, when the opponent is expecting 1/1 Goblins and finds himself against 5/5 Flying Demons.
@Wastedlife, The problem is I'm left with a hand where if Tomb of Urami is the land, I have to mulligan unless I have Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and either a Dark Ritual or two other accelerants. I think there's a huge difference between 9 and 10 lands, especially if one of those lands is Tomb of Urami.
You do bring up a good point tho', Simian Spirit Guide and Tomb of Urami are fighting over the same slots for dedicated mana production in TES, and there's no reason you have to use 4 Simian Spirit Guide. I think I'm going to cut a Simian Spirit Guide for it and go back to 10 golden lands and 1 Tomb of Urami total.
As an aside, how is Goblin Warstrike in the SB? Did you try Crush of Wurms at all?
I did test Goblin War Strike, I've been testing it the last 3 or 4 weeks. It's an iffy spot in my sideboard its always in and out. I did test Crush of Wurms in the sideboard in 20 games and never went for it once. I went for Bargain three times and lost because of it once, I'm still debating if Bargain/Contract will stay.
I dunno about that really. I t was useful as a way to "refill" against Control when you ran Cabal Rituals at the time. Now, it may seem somewhat worthless. Seriously, I'd much rather have Returns than the Contract.
So would I, but Contract is there for when you don't have UU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Yes, but you onlt have 4 Rituals in the deck, compared to 4 SSG and 4 Rites. Personally, I think Goblin Lore is a candidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I don't find those 3 EtW so good MD against Thresh, especially because red thresh is packing Pyroclasm maindeck lately... And if they not, they are going to bring it in SB
i am almost never hurt by having 3 md warrens. if im not going for the gobs plan, it imprimts to a mox to power out rits, otherwise i love having three helping to assure the chance of dropping it turn 1-2 so the gobs can kill before they have too much time to answer it.
Warrens is great cause you can use it turn one with a sub par hand. drop you hand, and play warrens, making a hand of say, Mox, Guide, rite, Mine, Swarm, Warrens, Petal, totally playable, as opposed to the same hand with a Tendrils instead being a mulligan. The above hand puts out 12 gobs turn 1, the tendrils version is a mulligan.
all the token removal will still work against the urami token so I dont get the point
Ah, but you see; damage based removal like Pyroclasm generally don't.
I don't like REB in side.
I try them but I prefer in side more orim's or confidant.
The advantage of REB is versatility against blue based deck.
You can destroy an annoying meddling mage or counter a FoW/stifle.
The problem is that REB is not so useful like an orim's when you want to adopt a plan that passes for LED because my opponent can counter my tutor or tutor's choice when I discard all my hand for LED and there is the problem when I want to pass for diminishing or iggy, in these cases I prefer orim.
Instead, in contrast to confidant, another problem is that REB is useful only against blue based deck when confidant is useful against more decks: discard decks like pikula, stax like angel stax that in my meta increase their popularity and many deck blue based except solidarity where I admit REB >> confidant (but we have also orim's).
In my side I must use shattering spree in 3x. Too many chalice post side and many decks that use trinisphere.
Has someone tried a different land from undiscovered paradise like 11° land?
I've tried glimmervoid but it's horrible.
Tendo Ice Bridge is the same.
Now I'm trying Tarnished Citadel.:rolleyes:
First off i wana say im sad to see TES fall out of the DTB fourms... :'(
Ok, to business:
I'm happy with my main, it's almost the same as WastedLife's.
Questionable slots...
i'm running 10 land, and love it, 1 tomb, 1 paradise.
4 SSG, 4 Rites, 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils, 3 Plunge, everything else standard numbers.
The sideboard is what needs the most work.
my current list:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains - Burning Wish target, helps win
1 Diminishing Returns - Burning Wish target, helps win
1 Tendrils of Agony - Burning Wish target, wins
1 Empty the Warrens - Burning Wish target, wins
1 Hull Breach - Burning Wish target, takes out Pillars, Chalice, Confinements, catch all
1 Tranquility - Burning Wish target, i have had SO many games where i have 4 enchantments on my opponents side and a tranq would just plain win, Loam Confinement, and Enchantress are being played much more.
1 Duress - Burning Wish target, gets rid of a counter, thinking about cutting
1 Goblin Warstrike - Burning Wish target, helps EtW win, thinking about cutting
3 Shattering Spree - Burning Wish target, Amazing to board in much needed against chalice, and 3sphere
4 Pyroblast - most hated slot. i want confidants here, but im not sure... i'm probally going to switch though. (see the skitzo within? trust me it makes deck building hard, but playing even harder, LOL)
I know what you mean man, my manabase is currently...Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Undiscovered Paradise
This is because Tomb simply cannot cast enough of the deck, a conversation with Anwar opened up some views on Tomb. I don't think we can justify it in the deck, I've won countless games because of it. However, I believe I've probably mulliganed more because of it.
as for Demon's SB, mine is currently...
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Duress
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Hull Breach
1x Cruel Bargain
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Orim's Chant
3x Shattering Spree
My maindeck changes are -1 Tendrils, -1 Plunge. +1 SSG and +1 land(or Chant's I can't remember). I was testing and found playing 2 Orim's chant SB over REB is much stronger due to the fact it can be cast before comboing. Although, 2 REB was still needed to make sure a Chant Resolved.
You need to be as close to B/r as possible before Tomb of Urami is a mana source that the deck can keep a hand on, and even then a hand with Tomb of Urami is ruling out Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns.
I keep seeing people cut Plunge into Darkness, and I can't find the reasoning for it. The deck was built on using Plunge into Darkness to find Lion's Eye Diamond, and if you cut Plunge into Darkness you are weakening your strategy for a dedicated threat, disruption or accelerant that isn't as versatile as Plunge into Darkness.
Glad to see the second Tendril go, man that thing caused a ridiculous amount of mulligans.
2 tendrils is nessary, you remove too many cards to cut it, i would HATE to plunge, and have the IGG and Tutor in hand, and plunge and have to take Tendrils over LED just cause i couldn't remove my last Tendrils...
also, the main deck is pretty much close to being perfect, like what say 90% of it is done, we just need to figure out the last 10%
the problem is that the last 10% is meta/playstyle calls.
I don't like so much 2 undiscovered paradise.
In first turns, when I play brainstorm / plunge to arrange my hand, the undiscovered paradise can slow down my start to combo.
I prefer to continue to have in deck the tomb. Sometimes I win some matches that I've lost. Usually against damned STax. Ah, ah, ah. Or pikula. :cool:
My decklist is more similar to old decklists with only 1 EtW and still with 2 cabal ritual. This is because perhaps my meta is different form yours and there are too many response to EtW also maindeck: e.e., tabernacle, sharpshooter, echoing truth, pyroclasm...all cards maindeck :eek:
So sometimes I can also do 8-10 goblins in my first turn, but I prefer to adopt a different strategy if I know my opponent has too many response to EtW.
If my opponent has a weak strategy to contrast EtW I can side in g2/3.
This is because I use only 1 EtW and also for the problem that I want the minimum number of spell at CC4 (I use only a ToA for this reason).
Goblin war strike is so good? I never try it. I think it's only a tech that steals space in the side. How many time do you use war strike?
sorry for my language. :ug: