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Given that you're concerned about casting costs, why is this not Tin Street Hooligan? The red should almost never be a concern.Quote:
Uktabi Orangutan for artifacts
As for enchantments, there's still Viridian Zealot and Indrik Stomphowler. Indrik costs 5, but having a couple cards up on the cc isn't going to kill you. Bob is run in blue decks with Force of Will and they don't seem to mind at all.
Because it doesn't work with Aether VialQuote:
Originally Posted by Di
Please develop posts a little further. At least add proper punctuation to them.
-PR
Which aggro decks in particular are causing you to need lifegain? Goblins and Affinity don't really care about 4 extra life. Do you face a lot of burn decks or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
You're wrong. Goblins cares. Especially in the case of Loxodon Hierarch, but less so still with Baloth. You aren't just getting the life. You're also getting a body who can block and take down any goblin but a Piledriver.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
Hierarch can very often buy you enough time to keep goblins from performing an all-out swing to finish you off. RGB builds get a lesser effect out of Baloth, but they don't need as big of an effect thanks to Wish-Pyroclasm and Mogg Fanatic.
Affinity can make a difference too, because Affinity can reach at you with Disciple or Fling. Therefore the higher you can get your life total while simultaneously stabilizing your board position, the better.
It's not a question of whether the card is useless or not, it's a question of whether it's the best card for that slot. Obviously the lifegainers have SOME utility in every matchup, but saying that they "can" make a difference is not enough. The question is, "How often would another card have been just as good, or better?"
"Pulling out of a bad situation" is a lot worse than just not getting into it in the first place.
The lifegainer slot is different than other slots because the situation is radically different than others in terms of utility creatures. Plus, the function of utility creatures in this deck, in general, are in their slots for a specific purpose. The lifegainers purpose is to make sure you don't die. Seems to be important. Given it's very narrow, yet useful intent, I find it very hard to find something that can replace it given that you won't have that particular use out of other creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
Regarding your question though, take for instance a scenario against Goblins. You're at 4 life and face 4-5 creatures compared to your 3. Then you play Loxodon Hierarch. All of a sudden you're at 8 life, pretty much buying you an extra turn by itself, and not only have a blocker, but regeneration for the rest of your team. Now you're back in the mix, and can turn things around next turn. Then say that Hierarch was a FTK. You'd kill a man, maybe a Piledriver, but then you also possibly lose your team in the process, and you're still at 4 life, which is very close range for Goblins. If they happen to draw Incinerator, you're in a much worse position than if you had the Hierarch, as it's one less blocker and you'll most likely die within the next couple turns.
Of course you could throw a million different cards in the mix, but the point is having a lifegainer buys you enough time in any given situation its needed to have the deck pull itself out of tough spots. Given something like Hierarch, which also provides a good ground game, it can almost act as a Time Walk against aggro decks.
But, when you have Survival out and can get the lifegainers, you have assloads of inevitability. Every turn you get to expand your board position and unless they have an active Vial and are chaining Ringleaders, they aren't going to be able to match your inevitability. Buying another turn, particularly when a big fattie is attached is critically important to winning the game, because they're forced to deal with that fattie and the next one and the next one, and the best way for them to do that is by overrunning you. Gaining life puts them enough away from that goal that you can take the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
-Slay
If they have 4-5 goblins and an Incinerator, killing an (important) goblin with FTK is WAY better than Hierarch. Either way, the 4cc creature you just played trades for their Gempalm, so which is better: 4 life or nuking a Warchief? Not even close.
Also, consider the question: why are you even AT four life? Maybe if you'd, say, killed that Piledriver a turn earlier, or been able to throw down a faster blocker, that would be 3-5 life you never would have lost and thus not HAD to regain.
Of course it's different if you can keep re-using the lifegain, either through Genesis or I suppose Tradewind Rider, but that kind of late-game plan is not something to build around.
I guess I'm also looking at the card in the "what if you don't have survival" pessimistic light. Utility creatures are great when I can have them on demand but it's also important to NOT have them when I DON'T want them. That's a big cost of any utility guy, but it's a hard cost to notice: when your Uktabi Orangutan is Grey Ogre, or when your Loaming Shaman is Gnarled Mass. Hierarch is just barely better than Erhnam Djinn against way too many opponents for me to justify maindecking it.
There was probably a time when a 4/4 for four mana would have been good enough, broadly enough, to keep it from being classified as a utility creature, but I just think that time is past now.
I'm not trying to be stubborn here, I just honestly haven't seen the need for lifegain. But I'll go play some survival (GBW+Anger, posted above) vs goblins games right now to see how often I would hope for a Hierarch.
Heirarch will not create a big enough difference on his own for anyone to care that much. Especially in a metagame where Goyf sligh will be the new goblins, with huge creatures of their own, and a lot of burn. I'm not saying the choice is between FTK and Pope, bc FTK does so little against goyf it's
not even funny, I'm just saying you need cards that will change the board.
While I completely agree with the last statement in theory, remember that Hierarch/Generic Lifegain Guy is tutorable in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
So the question now becomes "Is there a single card that will improve your ability to not get low on life against every deck you will face more effectively than a Lifegainer will allow you to recover and stabilize?" I say no. Despite our constant efforts to metagame tweak a deck, there are thousands of situations in magic beyond our ability to predict, so I run the Hierarch. Most recently he managed to win me a game where I got beat down to 3 by Threshold after having a Survival Dazed, then Snared, then I finally got it back off a Witness, which promptly met Lightning Bolt. I managed to Grab Hierarch facing a Mongoose and a Tarmogoyf, resolve him and gain to 7, and keep Threshold from swinging (The Goyf was only 5/6) while I hunted up a Shriekmaw to eat the Tarmogoyf and more Goyfs of my own to win the game. No other creature besides Bone Shredder would have saved me in that situation (Kill the goyf, Chump the Mongoose), and I don't run Bone Shredder anymore.
I recently ran into a similar experience. I was fighting against a Pikula type deck to resolve and go crazy with Survival, but he had wittled me down with LD and Beaters. I finally was able to resolve to play a Witness for Survival, and start chaining. Trouble was, I was only on two land and needed a couple turns to develop Rofellos and Ranger. Using those turns would leave me with no way to develop some sort of blocker and live. Baloth to the Rescue. I was actually playing 2 after boarding, and without that Tutorable life gain, his Rack would have gotten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I understand the theory behind not getting yourself into "behind" situations by playing better cards, because it's a good one, but there is too much to be said for keeping Survival as a "GG" card. If Survival can't pull me out of situations, it actually makes me want to evaluate that card more than anything else. Why play a shell like that if it can't bring me back against an aggro deck? Shouldn't it? It's hard for me to put into words, but it just doesn't feel right.
For a long time we have moved away from dependance on Survival, but I don't think removing something like Hierarch is step in the right direction.
Why Hierarch over Spike Feeder?
Spike Feeder comes down a turn earlier, in the matches that life gain matters (like Goblins) there is often some mana disruption going on 1GG is generally alot easier to pull off than 2GW. There is also a significant clock, so earlier lifegain seems better than later. The extra mana also means one more mana available on said turn to be tutoring for Goyf or if cast turn 3 leaves your turn 4 open to cast a pair of two drops as blockers.
Spike Feeder also can move tokens to win Goyf battles which seems like it would come up as often if not more often than a need for life gain.
Why didn't the thresh player just kill you instead of the witness?...what an IDIOT...If I'm not mistaken, the way I translated this is that you were at three, you got hierarch back with a witness, the thresh guy bolted the witness instead of you...then you dropped hierarch and stabilized?...I'm I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
as for the life gainers arguement. I agree that it would be optimal to just "not get yourself in a situation you need to gain life" but the fact of the matter is that sometimes you DO...Like a couple of you guys were saying: Pope/other life gainers help to bide you enough time so that you can stabilize and then start to swing things into your favor. Its like a 2 for 1...life gain+sweet creature.
As for feeder vs baloth or hierarch...I think that hierarch (if you're running white) is pretty nuts cause he gives you the life gain on the spot as opposed to sacrificing or making your guy into a 1/1 or a 0/0 (dead). Plus he can save all of your dudes in a tight spot, sometimes allowing you a full extra turn (you can chump block again next turn) and he's so big that he can do some damage. Spike feeder is sweet too though as he's cheaper and can move counters to your other dudes. I think I would run him over baloth. Then again a 2/2 as opposed to a 4/4 can be significantly different at times. They both have their strengths and weaknesses..Feeder is cheaper/more versatile while baloth sacrifices cheapness for raw power...I guess what I'm trying to say is that all in all having a life gainer can be pretty significant...
just my 2 cents
I figured out a long time ago that dependence on survival is a bad plan, so instead of running 1 Pope as a life-gaining utility beater, run 3 to become a compliment to Goyf as your plan to win the game.
I enjoy running multiple Oliphants as much as the next guy, but the problem is that his curve is kind of high. Survival is a mana hungry beast, and coming by colored mana is tough. I'd run like 1 Pope, 1 Spike feeder, and (just throwing this out there) that new Stoutarm guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigredmeanie
Now, I know I just said that I should shy away from colored mana costs, but, let's be honest. Cool things, while dangerous, are still really cool. Nat (Bushwag, or whatever) has been saying he's gonna test him for some time now. I think that liflink is a bit more fun than CIP life (though I'll stipulate that it gets PWNT by incenerator) on account of it is recuring. I also tried Exaulted Angel for a while, but morphing her up (or just straight up casting her) was pretty arduous, 'specially if you're running 4 Magi of the Moon. (Or, rather, 3 Magus of the Moon and one Mago de la Luna)
I'll work on a survival list, but I'd like to get it on the record now: Dief may have come up with the perfect list. With almost no change he's taken 3 top 2's in significantly different metas, and with relative ease. He's onto this, too:
Wish is broken in survival. I'll admit that it's not a creature, nor does it do anything right then, but it gives answers and outs to ridiculous shit. He wished for Hull Breach against Innovator Alluren with Alluren out and a 4/4 Etched oracle on the board. He then ruins shit (alluren guy didn't have the one mana to pop the oracle, and no cards in hand. He dropped it because he was afraid of extra discard.), and is just non-chalant about it.
Magus of the Moon may be the single most awesome creature in the deck. I'll agree that "Float a white" is a terrible thing to hear when casting him, but has anyone considered Vial? You tap that shit at 3, and they say cool, there ain't no way out of that. THey have to float a white at the activation, not the resolution (since their tundra will be a $25 mountain). Fakespam is a genius, in that regard.
Why aren't we running vials? Somebody make a list - I'm gonna go try to touch some boobs tonight.
I've been fuddling around with a Survival list that includes Vials. This list is tuned to my meta (very aggro oriented), so I don't have hand disruption. So this wouldn't be very good against the current field.
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Bayou
4 [U] Taiga
5 [TS] Forest
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [FS] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [UL] Bone Shredder
2 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
1 [LOR] Shriekmaw
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Anger
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [FD] Razormane Masticore
1 [PY] Spore Frog
1 [PC] Dark Heart Sliver
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [TS] Krosan Grip
SB: 5 RANDOM CARDS (ProjectX combo, utility dudes)
So I'm running a ton of removal, mainly because everyone at my shop plays a lot of creatures. Spore Frog also helps out there, and locks with Genesis + Vial at 1. Darkheart Sliver gains a bunch of life with Vial at 2 (Vial at 2 is great for the early-midgame). Tarmogoyf and Mongeese comprise your beater package, and Fanatic handles weenies and Ichorid. Dark Confidant is really, really good. Your 2cc slot is absolutely filled with bombs. Confidant, however, does occasionally flip over 3cc+ creatures, which is where your lifegain comes in.
I want to tinker around with optimal creatures to run so I can get the most out of keeping Vial at a certain number. For example, I might cut Darkheart Sliver for Spike Feeder because Vial at 3 + Genesis works great with Bone Shredder and Spike Feeder.
It's nice because it's not heavily dependant on Survival. You run enough removal and beats that you can just go aggro.
I'm not an immeadate fan of your list; you run confidant with only one life gain-er (I count the harmonic in white lists, too, on account of they work well together)(On second thought, you don't have any artifact and enchantment hate mained).
Also, I feel like having a solitary whitness might suck sometimes. Your deck is also hurting for a playset of therapies between the main and side.
Tertiarly (sp?), I must admit that I have no idea what the Project X is. Something with Saffi and Crypt Champion? Sharpshooter? SCG didn't have the lists up anymore (I remember them existing), and I googled "Project X", "project x magic", and "project x mtg" to no avail.
Insert Goblin Sharpshooter as another option for Caller of the Claw...Quote:
1 [TS] Saffi Eriksdotter
1 [DIS] Crypt Champion
1 [LE] Caller of the Claw
You're familiar with the Project X combo, right? You Survival away Saffi and Caller, then play Champ and bring back Saffi. With the sacrifice trigger of the Champ on the stack, sacrifice Saffi, targeting Champ. Champ dies, brings back Saffi. Rinse and repeat around a million times, until you return Caller of the Claw instead of Saffi with Champ. Then swing away with Angry 2/2 Bears.
Last night after my last post I did a quick few games against goblins. I dropped a card and added a Hierarch. I never once wanted it. Of the five games, in three I steamrolled the goblin player with discard and early Goyfs/Dorans. In two games I got rolled by armies which Hierarch would not have saved me from.
The testing did also manage to convicne me that BGH #1 is worse than Shriekmaw #3 and also Bone Shredder #1. So BGH is out for now.
I did fail to notice that Hierarch looks WAY better in builds that do a lot of damage to themselves - so if you're running Dark Confidants, Loxodons are probably necessary. I don't know yet if Thoughtseize is enough to warrant the Loxodon. Also, all my discussion really applies to including Hierarch as a MD card - he's perfectly respectable as a SB option, I have no beef with that.
I've been running Vial in Survival for literally years, because it is extremely awesome, but no one else seems to be on board. Shrug. Magus of the Moon DOES seem to make it even better though.
I tried out Project X combo (and in fact I have tried almost literally EVERY creature-based combo in Survival decks - everything except Cephalid Illusionist) but I found it terrible. Just Beating Down With Goyfs was almost always a better combo, and the cards in it were way better on their own. Goyfs, especially with Anger, really obsolete every other kill condition you could be running, in my experience. Which is sad because I loved my old Salvagers-Survival deck to death.
What cards are people using for enchantment and artifact kill, and how many of each? The candidates are Harmonic Sliver, Tin-Street Hooligan, Indrik Stomphowler, Viridian Zealot, and Uktabi Orangutan. Am I missing any? Personally I like Sliver the best, but Tin-Street could be good in a redder build than the one I'm working on.
What enchantments do you face that need killing? Opposing Survivals, Counterbalance, possibly Aluren...is that all? Enchantress I have found to be absolutely unwinnable, probably a 30/70 matchup in their favor, so randomly blowing up a Moat is not really a concern.
I've liked Spike Feeder for a long time. It's not a creature that you want to tutor for, per se, but it's really sharp to draw. It's always castable and it's randomly like oh hey, here's a Time Walk. I realize these aren't compelling arguments. That said, If you have Spike Feeder out and a Tarmogoyf, your beastie will always be bigger than someone else's. If you have Birds and no way to X off a Moat, then Spike Feeder makes your Birds into beaters. Things like that.
I have never liked Spore Frog. It's good when you have Survival up, but if I have Survival and 4 mana, I'd really like to be doing better things like getting Baloths or Tarmogoyfs or Shriekmaws.
Another nod for lifegain or Spike Feeder is that Sylvan Library is really insane in Survival. Lifegain cards very easily become more draws when you have the mana to make them work. A Vial on three and a Genesis in the yard means a free card every turn from Spike Feeder, neat!
Jaynel, I'd suggest testing Basking Rootwalla over Nimble Mongoose.
Speaking of Wallas, they're interesting to consider in conjunction with Opposition.