[Deck] Belcher

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

That's really all the information you need. The deck doesn't take an especially large amount of thinking to play, just become comfortable with your mana production spells and win conditions, do some simple math, and know what to expect against certain deck archetypes.

The more you goldfish the deck the more familiar you become with what hands to keep and what not to keep. After a while, you start seeing cards as fixer, one mana gain, two mana gain, LED as post wish or belcher mana, etc etc. After you know all the possible combinations, you can decide whether or not you should mulligan with only a quick glance at what your opening hand is.

For Nihil's second suggestion, that's something you're going to have to work on over time. Knowing your matchups (especially game 2) is extremely crucial. First game you will goldfish more than half the time based on the fact that most decks aren't well equipped (besides blue-based ones) to counter a turn 1 belcher activation or even 10+ EtW tokens. When you head into game 2, all sorts of hate comes in, and that's when you'll have to judge whether or not your hand is A) resilient enough to fight past hate B) has enough disruption to push your combo through C) not good enough and in need of a mulligan.

If you're not for ballsy decks, I don't think you should play this. It really is hit and miss, and if you play against blue-based control and hate cards all day you're probably not going to do as well. However, it is fast and consistent which, on the other hand, makes your opponent mulligan and play according to your rules. The fear of dying on the first turn alone makes this deck a menacing threat.

Oh yea, a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Street Wraith's function. You're asking if mana should replace him? Well then, what kind of mana are you talking about? All the best red mana production spell are already in this deck (one's that net you +1 or +2 red) and by running Street Wraith you are effectively cutting down your deck to 56 cards and increasing the chances that you'll draw the good mana production spells.

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thanks for the info, that helps a lot

I will start my goldfishing soon

thanks all

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

1-land versus 2-land thing.
I've found that going down to one Taiga has made my kills much more consistent without actually hurting the lasting power of the deck. Settling for a (hopeful) two-turn kill is pretty gutsy, especially if you don't have permanent mana sources to back up your Belcher.

MD Pyroblast?
Ok, as far as metagame choices go, this is still a piss-poor option IMO. It can get you there, but I find that I am almost always short on mana to cast it should I need to go off in the early turns. Furthermore, if you're going to wait to go off on turns 2 or 3, you're risking running into more than one counterspell, making Pyroblast meh. I don't know, everytime I see that card in my hand I sorta just scratch my head. I'd like to hear from someone who has done well in a tournament running MD Pyroblasts. But then again, there's not really anything else I'd put in that slot.

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

I was just wondering if Pithing Needle was ever considered in the SB against EE and other randomness. I'm sure theres a reason why people don't but I was just wondering. It's probably not worth it and there are better options? I was just thinking that in the aggro control match up sometimes EE is all that can stop your victory?

I really want to put this deck together I just need 3 more Belchers. Do you guys think I should run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith? Also, how do you think this deck fares in a meta with lots of Thresh and some other combo? It seems like it has a decent match-up against most decks other than Stax and such?...Maybe I'm wrong...

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

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Xantid Swarm...?

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

Do you guys think I should run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith

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SW... WildCantor only gives 1 storm, SW gives you a card that gives you most of the time 1 storm+mana. Cantor is only good when you play black (and playing black is bad IMHO)... You "play 56 cards" with SW...

Mvg

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

1-land versus 2-land thing.
I've found that going down to one Taiga has made my kills much more consistent without actually hurting the lasting power of the deck. Settling for a (hopeful) two-turn kill is pretty gutsy, especially if you don't have permanent mana sources to back up your Belcher.

MD Pyroblast?
Ok, as far as metagame choices go, this is still a piss-poor option IMO. It can get you there, but I find that I am almost always short on mana to cast it should I need to go off in the early turns. Furthermore, if you're going to wait to go off on turns 2 or 3, you're risking running into more than one counterspell, making Pyroblast meh. I don't know, everytime I see that card in my hand I sorta just scratch my head. I'd like to hear from someone who has done well in a tournament running MD Pyroblasts. But then again, there's not really anything else I'd put in that slot.

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

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I'm running 8 Blasts in the MD, the main reason to run Blasts, let alone 8 Blasts, is that even tho' the deck doesn't have the mana to cast a Blast with 7 cards on average, it doesn't matter, because the deck should just cast its win condition "Blind" if Force of Will is in the opponent's hand less than 40% of the time. However, the deck does have the mana to cast a Bast with 8 cards on average, and this is where Blasts are the most critical, because both Force of Will and Stifle are active, Brainstorm or Ponder increases the odds of Force of Will to 50% and Belcher needs an answer against the combined percentages. Daze is negligible, because even tho' it's active, the extra card Belcher draws offsets it.

If you do have the mana to cast Blast on 7 cards, great, but if not, then use the Blasts to counter cantrips to "Time Walk" your win conditions or counter Counterbalance/Meddling Mage so you can activate your Belcher or get a second chance to combo. Games 2 and 3, the opponent has to go looking for an answer, so he should be mulliganing, and depending on how far he mulligans, you can top deck for the mana to cast your win conditions and your Blasts on the same turn.

About the most important thing that has changed, and I can't stress most important enough, is that LED has become a baiting card. Thanks to Ichorid, LED says "you must Force of Will/Daze me" game one, so Storm combo has gotten more resilient against counters, especially Storm combo that doesn't really rely on LED.

Other than that, all I can suggest is to have a SB plan for cutting the Blasts, I like Serum Powder and Leyline of the Meek myself, tho' Street Wraith works to I guess, and consider Leyline of the Void if Ichorid is popular, because it can turn a bad match up into a guaranteed match up.

Mulliganing is easy, learning how to play against control just requires some one to point it out to you or experience, about the only question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you want to SB out Seething Song against control for something else.

Any way, 8 Blasts is a no brainer in a Tarmogoyf metagame. The deck isn't all that hot with Stifle around, but other than that, it does alright.

The build I'm testing:

// Lands
2 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

// Spells
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

The swarms main are good in my meta, but they need more testing..

Why i play Cave-In & Rough // Tumble is because Cave-In doenst work against Geddock Teeg, so i need another answer, but Cave-In is so much better when not playing against Geddock Teeg, i play both (but do I need Cave-In? I think i play the removal not many, only againt Teeg and MM and sometimes more,, so maybe cut the Cave?)

And then cut it for the Goblin War Strike (i had cut it for the Rough // Tumble,, because i thought it was an overkill, but after cut him, i lost some games because i was 1 turn to slow with the EtW tokens (a friend plays EE main ;)),, and in some situations i had killed him if the GWS was in my Side.. But i van also cut it for a second enchantment removal:

Simplify, i want to cut the card, ore play 2 second enchantment removal,, when the oppo has 2 enchantments and you want to destroy one, you can never do that.. Some cards to play instead of the Simplify:
- Hull Breach
- Reverent Silence
- and maybe Tranquility

are there people that can say something about that?


Today i had a nice play, I mulled to 5, and combo'ed in turn 2:

Land Grant (1 Storm, 1 Mana) -> Tinder Wall (2 Storm, 2 Mana) -> Rite of Flame (3 Storm, 3 Mana) -> Seething Song (4 Storm, 5 Mana) -> Seething Song (5 Storm, 7 Mana) -> Played Lions Eye diamond (6 Storm, 7 Mana) -> B. Wish (7 Storm, 5 Mana) -> Activated LED (7 Storm, 8 Mana) -> Wished for a Tutor (7 Storm, 8 Mana) -> Played Tutor for a B. Wish (8 Storm, 6 Mana) -> Played B. Wish for a Tendrills (9 Storm, 4 Mana) -> Tendrils with 10 Storm, turn 2 With a muligan to 5, and No D. Returns :P.

Mvg

Someone that can answer a question, i have a tournament this weekend, and I need a good build (i'm testing very much) :)..

Mvg

Straight red with one land and 8 blasts is about as good as it gets, I can tell you that Xantid Swarms are awful in Belcher and aren't worth your time, they cost you mana, storm and a turn, compare that to a blast.

I went 4 -2 day one of TMLO 3 with this build:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Wild Cantor
3 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Taiga

SB:
4 Pyoblast
4 Red Elemental Balst
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Straight red with one land and 8 blasts is about as good as it gets, I can tell you that Xantid Swarms are awful in Belcher and aren't worth your time, they cost you mana, storm and a turn, compare that to a blast.

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Ok, xantid let you be one turn slower, but is stopt All the counter, Blasy only on, and you need 1 mana more the turn you combo!..

But maybe is Swarm better in side, so they side out their creature kill.

And can you post a list with 1 land and 8 blasts (i dont think i gonna play 1 land, after a failed combo'ing, when you already had a taiga, you dont want your Land grant for nothing..

Mvg

EDIT: ow, and Swarm also works against shit like Orims Chant..

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

SB:
4 Pyoblast
4 Red Elemental Balst
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns

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What do you board out for the 8 blast plan?

How often was Burning Wish relevant? Were you more often winning with EtW, or with Belcher?

One turn is "forever" against Threshold, you shut down Force of Will, Daze, Stifle and Spellsnare, but you Time Walk them into Counterbalance, Meddling Mage or Gaddok Teeg and let them cantrip into Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle. If your opponent has two answers in his, then you lose, regardless of whether or not you have Xantid Swarm or a Blast, and if they have a counter and removal, you just look stupid.

You could SB Xantid Swarm, altho' I'd look into Goblin Welder at that point.

This is the list I run,

MD
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

SB
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
5 Open Slots

Your only bad match ups are discard, prison, decks with Orim's Chant and decks with Force of Will and either Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy or Duress.

Cephalid Breakfast is an auto-loss

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

What do you board out for the 8 blast plan?

How often was Burning Wish relevant? Were you more often winning with EtW, or with Belcher?

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I find the deck winning 50/50 between belcher and ETW. I think I may have miss-posted the list, I only run 6 blasts in my board, I forgot what the other two cards were. The 6 blasts are easy to put in, you just remove one of a bunch of cards, the Wrath's are easy to side out too. Burning Wish is a must, it goes and gets answers to so many things, not to mention getting ETW, FTW!!!

Build with no lands?:

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [GP] Wild Cantor (what also to do with the last slot..)

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [U] Red Elemental Blast
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [P2] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

I dunno, it seems like Land Grant is pretty awesome with the +1 storm +1 mana deal. What does cutting the 1/2 Taigas offer besides always winning off a Belcher activation?

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

I dunno, it seems like Land Grant is pretty awesome with the +1 storm +1 mana deal.

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Seconded, this deck really needs to run one or two land. Land grant is too good not to run.

You shouldn't run more than 4 Blasts main, with more than that it becomes too hard to combo. And Xantid main doesn't look good either, it will be bad too many times and it's not even a good color on a Mox. With the SB you can do pretty much anything you want, Belcher's SB isn't very strong anyway because if you board more than 4 cards it becomes inconsistent and if you don't have a land probably won't have mana to cast the Welders/Swarms/whatever and still combo.

@Sacearuse:How can you combo half of the time with Goblin charbelcher when only 4/11 (appr.36%) of your wincons are Belcher?

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Originally Posted by matelml

@Sacearuse:How can you combo half of the time with Goblin charbelcher when only 4/11 (appr.36%) of your wincons are Belcher?

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I'm just looking back at the last three events I ran the deck. It works out to 7/17 (41%) of my matches I Belched my opponent out. I keep a good record of my matchs and how I won them, sorry my math was a little off.

// Lands
1 [b] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
2 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [4e] Red Elemental Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Goblin War Strike/Cave-In (what of the 2?)
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

I'm not sure of the 1 land, sometimes i dont want it, and other times i want:P, but with 6 counter main, i think i fizzle less, so 1 land is good
@ Matelml, with 6 counters, i havent had a problem with drawing to many..
I cutted 2 D ritual for the 2 ReB, isnt cutting something other better? (1 LandGrant?, cause 4 LandGrant with 1 Taiga is sometimes to much..)

I'd rather cut a street wraith or tinder wall.