[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

It's been a while since I've posted here, but I thought I'd post my BardoGro 2K6 list, this being a new year and all.

Legacy 3-color Threshold (UWG)
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Armageddon / Tormod's Crypt
2 Worship
1 Nimble Mongoose

Out goes AK and Predict for the awesomeness of Mental Note. Why I wasn't running this before, I have no idea. I also upped the Daze count and dropped D Shoal after I lost the blue 2cc spells. EE is still in the deck and still doing its job. Mongeese were added as a 4-of, with 3 Meddling Mages; then I went with the 4 Mage / 3 Mongeese configuration which has been working even smoother. Mongoose #4 is in the sideboard.

Mental Note really has a home here, and is a key card in the mirror. I recommend everyone test it in place of their 2cc drawer.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1136353079

I like Mental Note and AK, the combo randomly just nets you more cards. I think that having Cantrips only cost 1 blue can be nice but the extra colorless doesn't hurt those close matches when it nets you a nice half-hand of cards.

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Originally Posted by bardo_trout

Mental Note really has a home here, and is a key card in the mirror. I recommend everyone test it in place of their 2cc drawer.

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It's about time people started coming around. Mental Note is stupid good in Thresh. It often buys you a full turn or two on building thresh, cantrips into another card, can be pitched to FoW, only costs 1, is an instant, combos with Brainstorm in getting rid of dead cards, lets you go aggro when you need to, and is rock solid in the mirror when your opponent doesn't have it. There's really not much not to like.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

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Originally Posted by bardo_trout

Mental Note really has a home here, and is a key card in the mirror. I recommend everyone test it in place of their 2cc drawer.

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It often buys you a full turn or two on building thresh, cantrips into another card, can be pitched to FoW, only costs 1, is an instant, combos with Brainstorm in getting rid of dead cards, lets you go aggro when you need to, and is rock solid in the mirror when your opponent doesn't have it.

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I'd add to your list that it allows you to recover from hate (Crypt/Wretch*/Furnace) better than anything else other than answers to the hate (which are weak cards).

I'll also underscore your point about how valuable Mental Note is in the mirror.

Playing on MWS the other night, I lost my graveyard to Tormod's Crypt with 2 Mongeese and a Werebear on the board. The next turn I sac'd a fetchland and cast double-Mental Note to get back to threshold for two mana.

It's really solid.

* Assuming you've taken care of that dude.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1136393646

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=3429
I came across this a few days ago, searching through some old odyssey stuff. It's utter lack of evasion and/or trample really makes it useless, but if your metagame isn't very creature based, it could maybe be playable.

Now more to the point of my post:

@Bardo: Is the one EE really helping you in there? It seems like something that would hurt just as frequently as help, and only one of them with no way to tutor for it makes me dout it's usefullness.

It seems as though pithing needle has largley come out of mainboards, and I must ask, why is this? Is gobbos seriously on that much of a decline that we can forgoe the defences against them all together?

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@Bardo: Is the one EE really helping you in there? It seems like something that would hurt just as frequently as help, and only one of them with no way to tutor for it makes me dout it's usefullness.

It seems as though pithing needle has largley come out of mainboards, and I must ask, why is this? Is gobbos seriously on that much of a decline that we can forgoe the defences against them all together?

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A couple of observations about Engineered Explosives:

1. I conceive of that slot as an experimental module. And Mongoose #4, Enforcer #3, Misdirection, Stifle, Strategic Planning, and Pithing Needle are all reasonable alternatives to EE.

2. I'm aware of how random and janky it looks. But I could extoll the many ways in which EE rocks until my fingers fell off. Instead I'll just ctrl-c/-v some content from Pt 1 of the Legacy 'Super Gro' Primer and add some new content.

EE [x] nukes:

"x=0: Chalices of the Void, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, all morphs (face-down Exalted Angel), and all token creatures (Decree of Justice soldiers/angels, Roar of the Wurm, ZI tokens, etc.), Tormod's Crypt, etc.

x=1: Basking Rootwalla, Cursed Scroll, Disciple of the Vault, Goblin Welder, Grim Lavamancer, mana birds/elves, Savannah Lions, Sligh/Goblin dudes (Jackal Pup, Goblin Lackey, Mogg Fanatic, Skirk Prospector, Kird Ape), etc.

x=2: Arcbound Ravager, Defense Grid, Fish dudes (Cloud of Faeries, Spiketail Hatchling), Ghostly Prison, Gilded Drake, Goblin Piledriver, Isochron Scepter, Madness outlets (Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Waterfront Bouncer), Nantuko Shade, Powder Keg, River Boa (blow it when your opponent is tapped out), Rofellos, Sphere of Resistance, Standstill (proactively), Suppression Field, Survival of the Fittest, White Weenies of all varieties, Withered Wretch

x=3: Back to Basics, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Warchief, Hypnotic Specter, Ophidian, Phyrexian Negator, Psychatog, Stax lock parts (Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds), Troll Ascetic (when opponent is tapped out), etc."

3. Running it as a 1-of isn't as bad as it looks, since you're running an assload of draw anyhow.

4. As 1-of, it's a surprise and a supplement to your removal package.

5. EE is a proxy for maindeck artifact/enchantment removal, which is often narrow; but EE can blow up d00ds just as easily.

6. EE is a cost inefficient solution to Goblins (I side it out), but it's not like Pithing Needle shuts down Goblins either. They can still Lackey their dudes or just pay the full cost. And it's not like Piledriver for 1R is uncastable...

7. Lastly, it's like my signature card or something. :)



Edited By bardo_trout on 1136411651

Engineered Explosives can help you win against random matchups too. Although this wouldn't normally be something to take into consideration. It can cover alot of the sideboarding you just don't have room for with a single card.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

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Originally Posted by bardo_trout

Mental Note really has a home here, and is a key card in the mirror. I recommend everyone test it in place of their 2cc drawer.

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It's about time people started coming around. Mental Note is stupid good in Thresh. It often buys you a full turn or two on building thresh, cantrips into another card, can be pitched to FoW, only costs 1, is an instant, combos with Brainstorm in getting rid of dead cards, lets you go aggro when you need to, and is rock solid in the mirror when your opponent doesn't have it. There's really not much not to like.

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So is it okay to run a build with no real card advantage? I thought that Predict or AK provided some much needed card advantage that prevented the Gro player from running out of cards given that no other card in the deck creates card advantage.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

So is it okay to run a build with no real card advantage? I thought that Predict or AK provided some much needed card advantage that prevented the Gro player from running out of cards given that no other card in the deck creates card advantage.

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If you asked me two months ago, I would have said: "No; Threshold needs some form of CA so that it doesn't stall out." Now, however, I'll make a mea culpa: card advantage isn't necessary, but momentum is -- which Mental Note, along with the rest of the cantrips -- provide. And part of the problem with AK/Predict was that they actually made you stall out more in the early game.

At this point, we're operating from "deck advantage" with the reduced land count (anywhere from 4-8 less lands and consequently 4-8 more spells than our opponents) acting as virtual card advantage. Though the term "virtual" here has other applications I think.

Note also that the first place deck at Lille didn't run Predict or AK; just the 1cc non-CA cantrips.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1136418387

My current decklist is as follows, I'll explain my card choices and would appreciate guidance in building a sideboard tuned to all strategies that this deck would be weak against. I also want any input you have on improving the main deck if you could suggest which cards to cut in place of the cards you think I should add. But I'm quite certain that this list is very close to the optimal build for a diverse metagame, save for the sideboard.

// Lands
3 [UN] Tundra
3 [UN] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Island
1 [ON] Forest (Could be Plains based on your sideboard)

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Disruption
4 [UN] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [7E] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
1 [MM] Engineered Explosives
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [BK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Cantrips
4 [JU] Mental Note
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Brainstorm

//Explanation of Mana Base
I decided to run one Island instead of two (along with the Forest) because fetchlands are incredibly effective at filling the graveyard, making Brainstorm the best card in the deck and getting me precisely the mana type that I need. Even when mana screwed (very rare) and facing Wasteland, one Island on the board and another fetchland to get me the land type I need (or a basic Plains/Forest) in a pinch is often enough to ward off Wastelands. And that Island can meanwhile be used to play cantrips and draw into more lands or Werebears to get over the mana shortage. I've cut the mana base to seventeen because with twelve 1cc Cantrips, you just don't need any more.

//Explanation of Creature Base
I feel more comfortable running atleast fourteen creatures though since more and more decks are boarding tons of pinpoint creature destruction to deal with this deck. The increased number of creatures means that the lone Umezawa's Jitte you run can always find a target and sweep the board of Goblins. The creature base needs no real explanation. While the Mystic Enforcer maybe a bit mana intensive, your Werebears can help out in a pinch.

//Explanation of Spell Base
The only questionable choices are Misdirection, Umezawa's Jitte and Isochron Sceptar. As one ofs that must be anticipated and played around, they employ the same strategy that Fish uses in Vintage. The only real argument against running them is in order to render your opponent's artifact destruction null and void. This is actually a great way to get your opponent to side out their enchantment/artifact destruction in a match up where siding in your Worships would be useful. In such a case, an Enforcer can stand in for Jitte and a Naturalize (or some other card) can stand in for Scepter.

Umezawa's Jitte is definately viable in this build since you run so many creatures. In addition, the card will clear the board of Goblins and will add to your life total against the burn decks. Between this and the Enforcers, the deck has plenty of finishers.

Misdirection is one of the best spells in the format and it boggles my mind that so few decks run it. It's a Counterspell against control decks and a way to redirect their own burn/creature destruction at their own permanents against everything else. With so many mirror matches, being able to redirect their countermagic is a huge boon. At worst it's Brainstorm/FoW fodder. Best of all, running it will force your opponents to play around it. Yes I tried Disrupting Shoal in this slot but it's almost never effective against any spell with a casting cost higher than one, and when it is it can often force you to discard a card that you really didn't want to. This deck doesn't run enough mana to make hardcasting it very likely. Revision: While Misdirection is good, Engineered Explosives has proven itself even more effective in it's slot.

Isochron Sceptar is another card that's very effective as 1 copy. Optimally, you'll be able to stick a Counterspell on it and lock them down completely. If not, Swords on it will terrorize any creature based deck. Even a Brainstorm on it can be an incredibly effective card drawing engine, especially considering the number of fetchlands you run. And with the amount of countermagic you run, resolving is never an issue.

I only advocate running three Daze in this deck. Time has shown three to be the optimal number to not be hindered if your opponent starts playing around the card in Vintage and the same is the case here.

//Explanation of cards that I didn't run

Pithing Needle - It's great against some decks, and close to dead against other. But more importantly, it's just worse than your other disruption options. Countermagic can answer any threat, not just a select few, and can provide that answer when you need it most, rather than forcing you to pay for it ahead of time in place of a threat. Meddling Mage is more versatile than it and comes with a 2/2 body to boot.

Predict /AK- Cantrips are most effective as 1 drops. You play them turn one to get you that extra land that you so often need. You play a threat turn 2, and you can play them again turn 3 in addition to either a threat or countermagic. They smoothen out your mana base so much more effectively as one drops. Besides, AK is just a horrid card in any deck that's designed to win quickly, or in any deck not running Intuition. Predict would take Serum Vision's slots and Predict, even when you rarely do manage to combo it with a Brainstorm, really isn't all that broken.

Splashing Red - The manabases becomes too unreliable at four colors. And there really isn't anything to cut, or anything that red offers that this deck desperately needs. White offers so many more game swinging spells that it was an obvious choice.

//Sideboard Cards Being Considered

Blue Elemental Blast - Hates the most prominent color in Legacy.
Seal of Cleansing/Serenity - The ultimate answer to randomness.
Engineered Explosives - The utimate answer to weenie hordes and randomness.
Worship - Burn, Madness, Goblins and other decks that go for the jugular.

This is almost the exact build that's being discussed in the LMF, minus 2 cantrips, +1 Scepter, +1 Jitte. Why should we play those when the current build is already so strong?

Merged Topics

i developed the deck independently. the differences are subtle but significant. i still advocate running 17 land as you are now running 12 1 mana cantrips. Paris wisely and you will never be mana screwed. 18 may have made sense when people were running two mana cantrips like Predict and AK (and even then, several players did fine with just 17). If you run 18, everytime you get mana flooded, just remember that land you just drew could have been a gamebreaking spell. If you wish, you can run a Plains in the sideboard for wasteland.

I advocate 9 fetchlands. People I recall were only running 6 or 7. Testing has found that 8 is even better to avoid wastelands, feed threshold, feed brainstorm, and thin out the deck. More testing I am certain will find that 9 is optimal.

Daze is an excellent card, but people will quickly start to play around it, and if you are running 4, you will often end up with multiple dead cards. If you run 3 Daze, it's often a disadvantage for your opponent to play around it. This holds true in Vintage and I think testing will find that the same is the case for legacy.

The Isochron Sceptar and Jitte are gamebreaking many of the times that you draw them. They also catch your opponent completely off guard since you only run 1 of each. But like I said, running 0 artifacts or enchantments MD is another very viable strategy too.

I suppose the MisD could be replaced with EE when Jitte and Spectar are played as well.

I was taking my first peek at the Guildpact spoiler on mtgnews.com and ran across this little beast. I would definitely consider running this over Fledgling Dragon. I hate the double R in dragon's cost.

Giant Solifuge - 2 r/g r/g
Creature - Insect
Trample, haste
Giant Solifuge can't be the target of spells or abilities.
You should respect all forms of life, but some forms of life are best respected from a distance.
4/3
Rare


More untargetability muhahahah. Oh yeah, it tramples. Did I mention haste? Hmmmm ???

:)

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Originally Posted by umbowta

I was taking my first peek at the Guildpact spoiler on mtgnews.com and ran across this little beast. I would definitely consider running this over Fledgling Dragon. I hate the double R in dragon's cost.

Giant Solifuge - 2 r/g r/g
Creature - Insect
Trample, haste
Giant Solifuge can't be the target of spells or abilities.
You should respect all forms of life, but some forms of life are best respected from a distance.
4/3
Rare


More untargetability muhahahah. Oh yeah, it tramples. Did I mention haste? Hmmmm ???

:)

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I believe it's the evasion that makes Fledgling Dragon such a powerful asset to this deck. I don't think a ground beater would be a good replacement as Dragon is extremely good in the mirror. Although the untargetability/haste is definately very nice.



Edited By Jander78 on 1136571885

There's only a limited number of slots above the 2cc point in this deck and Solifuge will simply be out-competed by the 4cc flyers (Enforcer and Dragon).

I definitely think that guy has a place somewhere, he's a beat stick. I just don't think it's here. He definitely fits in RGSA, and I think he will be more than stellar there, but the lack of evasion is the real hard part. I often win by stalling the ground and beating in the air for the win.

@ Zelyon: The life loss from 9 fetches is too much. If you discount the life loss, I'd run 12 Fetches, but you just can't do that (I'm exagerating). If you have taken out Predict, they only have good synergy with the deck and make Brainstorm better, but you can't afford to be losing that much life over the course of the game. (IMO).

@ Bardo: It seems like the lack of card advantage shouldn't hurt too much. Play out all the good threats, and then when you get into the topdeck war with your opponent, you A) Will be drawing less land and B) Every time you draw a cantrip, you can just "pitch it" and draw again, so you have a much better chance of drawing into relevant stuff. Is this what you have found?

@ Mental Note: Yay for Ray of Revelation in the side ;) TECH :) (I once ran Ray of Revelation in the side of U/G Madness in Extended against Brain Freeze combo, and I would just randomly win, but unfortunately Solidarity is just too good for that.)

Legacy Threshold, Part 5: Reflections on Grand Prix: Lille, by yours truly

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Zelyon: The life loss from 9 fetches is too much.

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Nah. You're not going to draw all 9 of them.

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It seems like the lack of card advantage shouldn't hurt too much.

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It doesn't. The deck actually flows a lot smoother without the 2cc card drawers. CotV=1 is even more of a kick in the junk, but that was true before.

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when you get into the topdeck war with your opponent, you A) Will be drawing less land and B) Every time you draw a cantrip, you can just "pitch it" and draw again, so you have a much better chance of drawing into relevant stuff. Is this what you have found?

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Yes. This is an amazing deck for topdecking for those reasons: less land + land thinning + cantrips.

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Mental Note

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'Tis teh fi-shizzle.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1136576196

Im not a thresh player by any means but I've played against it countless times.

Can someone from the inside explain to me why the deck plays NO cards with dredge? surely the deck can benifit from the turbo threshold enabling and the ability to recover quicker from crypt/furnace.

And wont the ability to win the attrition war count for something in the mirror/long games? thnx

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Can someone from the inside explain to me why the deck plays NO cards with dredge?

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Like some kind of Life from the Loam/Tranquil Thicket/Lonely Sandbar engine? It would just be too slow. The only thing that quickly comes to mind would be Darkblast in the UGb Thresh decks. But even then UGb is strictly inferior to UGW and URG.

With Mental Note, I hit threshold on turn 2 this afternoon.