[OLD] UGr Threshold

@Liek (and everyone else):

How would you adapt your GP list to a Flashless and less Fishy metagame ? In particular, which of the following creature bases would you favor ?

Option 1
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Quirion Dryad

Option 2
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tharmogoyf

Option 3
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Option 4
4 Werebear
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

In a more aggro meta, would you consider going for the UGRw splash (with something like -1 Forest, -1 Island, +2 Tundra) to include 1-2 Mystic Enforcer MD (and maybe 4 SB Meddling Mage) ?


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Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself?

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I agree with Liek on that one, he's right; give the guy a chance to explain himself in a civilized manner. Anyways, that's my two cents on the subject...

@jwludyka: Assuming most people who post on forums are retards compares to assuming all pro players are arrogant. (Guess that makes it my 4 cents, don't worry I won't spend more).

I know I will be playing:

Option 3
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

You use the following mechanics to make your creatures big thresh, card types in both graveyards, and casting spells that are a different color than green.

With a more varied mechanic for making big dudes and the ability for Tarmogoyf and Dryad to get silly quickly, along with the goose's untargetability...I can't think of a better set of beaters. I will probably also be looking to change some of the stifles in the winning build to Misdirection and go up to the 4th daze. I would probably also change the Needle to an EE.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I will probably also be looking to change some of the stifles in the winning build to Misdirection...

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I also thought about this but I don't know if the manabase will be affected by having less Stifles; they seemed to be handy against Wasteland from what I read in Liek's report. I'd probably cut Stifle #4 or Fire/Ice #3 for a second Needle maindeck. Having a basic Mountain in there could be nice also (maybe cutting one fetchland). I can't wait to get some testing done and try it at a local tournament (with what I consider to be the best option, number 3 that is).

I find option 2 to be the best. Goyf is big quickly. Werebear is a good size under Threshold and you still get his great mana tapping power. Nimble Mongoose is a good beater and untargetable. Although Dryads gets huge quickly, there is still about 2 turns where they are vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by B4L4

Hum, so what is your plan to win goblin MU .?
If u don't plan to dominate the board early game, i do not see how u can be in a favorable board position turn 6-7 against gobbos..

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You play creatures, your sit back, and you have these options available to you during the game...

1. Send 1 creature to attack to see how far it can go, or how many creatures it can kill. Have a creatures (Mongeese preferred) sit back for defense. You need at least 2 creatures for this.

2. Play Pyroclasm, then do an alpha strike. Use your cantrips (when chaining cantrips is helpful) to go through your deck to find more Clasms so you can keep doing this.

Option number 3 is clearly the best. Quirion Dryad has been forgotten how powerful a creature he is when utilized correctly. Tarmogoyf will be quickly found to be one of the best creatures in the new threshold build b/c of how fast he can become big. I think in the post flash metagame, you should play the red splash of threshold with mental note. I believe mental note has just gone up in value b/c of Tarmogoyf and Quirion Dryad.

I agree that the third configuration looks best. I believe that Tarmogoyf is strictly better than Werebear in this deck, due to its low curve and aggressive nature - you never need the mana ability to cast an Enforcer, for example. Additionally, this configuration is incredibly resilient to graveyard hate.

I also believe that option 3 is the best. Infact, I just tested UGR Thresh using #3 configuration against Meathooks, to a negative result, and I have 2 questions for everyone here:

1) How do you beat Meathooks with UGR Thresh?

2) Why play UGR Thresh over Meathooks?

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

I also believe that option 3 is the best. Infact, I just tested UGR Thresh using #3 configuration against Meathooks, to a negative result, and I have 2 questions for everyone here:

1) How do you beat Meathooks with UGR Thresh?

2) Why play UGR Thresh over Meathooks?

Kronicler

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1. Keep the "Mussle Slivers" from coming into play, and make sure you have Dryad and/or Goyf to dominate the board. This match is actually a match up where Counterspell shines. From what I have seen, the match isnt as hard as it seems. The pre-board MU is about 50/50. Post-board gets better if you run Counterbalance. I made my mistake not boarding Counterbalance in.... of course, I was talking about my perspective with Hatfield Gro.

2. Better combo MU. More room in the maindeck for personal preferences and metagame slots.

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

I also believe that option 3 is the best. Infact, I just tested UGR Thresh using #3 configuration against Meathooks, to a negative result, and I have 2 questions for everyone here:

1) How do you beat Meathooks with UGR Thresh?

2) Why play UGR Thresh over Meathooks?

Kronicler

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1) Keep Crystalline and Winged Sliver off of the board. Keep it a ground battle and try to remove what you can with bolts etc. Use your superior cantrip engine to get better quality cards.

2) The superior combo matchup.

How doe UGR Thresh have a better combo matchup than Meathooks? I guess G1 you have a better cantrip engine to find the 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but in general Meathooks plays more Counterspells than UGR Thresh. Post board, Meathooks brings in multiple stifles as well as a set of mages. I can't fathom how UGR Thresh would have a better game against combo post board with Meathooks bringing in that kind of hate.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

How doe UGR Thresh have a better combo matchup than Meathooks?

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umm... more room for cantrips and general control.

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I guess G1 you have a better cantrip engine to find the 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but in general Meathooks plays more Counterspells than UGR Thresh.

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umm... most UGr Threshold decks I've seen ran 10 counters at most. The EPIC and Hatfield ones run 3 Daze, 3 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will. Most Mental Note ones run 3 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, in which you can swap the Counterspells for Stifles in Storm heavy and Goblin heavy metagames.

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Post board, Meathooks brings in multiple stifles as well as a set of mages. I can't fathom how UGR Thresh would have a better game against combo post board with Meathooks bringing in that kind of hate.

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Pre-board game against combo is better, post-board game against combo is even better for you. Siding in Counterbalances is tons better than siding in Stifles.

You may be right, Kronicler. Hooks packs the same amount of counters as UGR Thresh but has more open slots for extra counters (also mage) in G2,3.

Is it better to have more cantrips to find your counters, or more open slots to increase your counter density?

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Pre-board game against combo is better, post-board game against combo is even better for you. Siding in Counterbalances is tons better than siding in Stifles.

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For the sake of this argument, let's say that both decks are running the same amount of counters, 4 daze, 4 fow, 2 Cspell. UGR Thresh will have a slightly better game against combo simply because it has more cantrips, I agree. But that will be very slight, probably 5% more, and good/bad luck would be more of a factor IMO. One must also consider that Mental Note doesn't really help you find counters unless paired with brainstorm when a fetch is unavailable.

Post board, you think that bringing in CB is stronger than bringing in 4 mage and 4 stifle?? I definately disagree here. Even if SDT is in the deck, you need to assemble both on the board for CB to actually be good (yes, I know it can randomly counter stuff) while hooks is packing a better anti-combo package than UGW Thresh post-board (or atleast equal to) which we all know trounces combo. Now even though I disagree with CB > Mage and Stifle, let's assume that it is. Can't Hooks SB them in? I guess my point is that Hooks can adapt most of what Thresh does while having creatures that become larger than anything thresh has and without the need for stuff in the GY (mongoose, goyf) or lots of spells played (dryad).

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

I also believe that option 3 is the best. Infact, I just tested UGR Thresh using #3 configuration against Meathooks, to a negative result, and I have 2 questions for everyone here:

1) How do you beat Meathooks with UGR Thresh?

2) Why play UGR Thresh over Meathooks?

Kronicler

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Then just keep playing Meathooks, you are not adding anything to this discussion about how to make UGR Thresh better.

Is Fledgling Dragon basically a goner after 'goyf?

Thresh actually has a much better matchup vs Slivers than you think. Slivers creatures aren't that good until they establish a couple on the board, whereas Thresh can invest G in a 3/3 or 1G in a 4/5 and go to town early. Crystalline Sliver only gives untargetability if it resolves. Thresh tends to win counter wars against Slivers due to the fact that it has more cantrip to dig for them and is far less mana hungry (i.e Slivers need to invest alot of mana into guys, where Thresh invests far less). If Slivers makes it to the late game, it will usually win (unless Thresh resolves a bomb like Enforcer and the Slivers player doesn't have Winged out or StP in hand). However, Thresh is clearly the beatdown early on. In my testing, UGw Thresh was slightly favored vs Slivers in game 1 and I can only see the matchup getting better for UGr Thresh since the burn can be aimed at the dome later on as extended reach.

Postboard, I agree that both decks can utilize Counterbalance. I think it would be akward for either deck, considering Thresh has a larger number of 1cc spells and Slivers has a larger number of 2cc spells, but I agree that both can utilize it to good effect. However, Thresh can bring in EE which is far more devastating against Slivers.

I think the combo matchup is actually better for Threshold of either splash because it doesn't need to commit as many creatures to the board early on to establish a good clock and can use it's mana instead to disrupt the opponent or dig for disruption. Counterspell in Slivers vs combo is terrible, Counterspell in Thresh vs combo is good, for example. The combo matchup is obviously better for the white splashes because of Meddling Mage, and Slivers does have solid postboard matchups against combo as well. Both Thresh and Slivers have solid combo matchups so it doesn't seem like that would be a strong point to try and argue about the merits of either deck.

I think a major difference between both decks is that Thresh plays a much better control game due to the cantrip density. Slivers has to overcommit threats to be successful, Thresh can drop just 1 or 2 guys. For this reason, Slivers has an awful control matchup while Thresh has a solid control matchup. I've never won a matchup against Landstill with Slivers while I have won matchups against Landstill with Thresh (especially the red splash because the additional reach of burn helps alot).

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

Post board, you think that bringing in CB is stronger than bringing in 4 mage and 4 stifle?? I definately disagree here. Even if SDT is in the deck, you need to assemble both on the board for CB to actually be good (yes, I know it can randomly counter stuff) while hooks is packing a better anti-combo package than UGW Thresh post-board (or atleast equal to) which we all know trounces combo. Now even though I disagree with CB > Mage and Stifle, let's assume that it is. Can't Hooks SB them in? I guess my point is that Hooks can adapt most of what Thresh does while having creatures that become larger than anything thresh has and without the need for stuff in the GY (mongoose, goyf) or lots of spells played (dryad).

Kronicler

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You seem to be assuming one deck can adapt and the other deck can't. If for some reason it's correct to board 8 cards for combo in Slivers, there's no reason ***** couldn't do the same. (Also, wasn't the consensus in the MeatHooks thread that the deck can't effectively support Counterbalance?)

Say we start with Liek's top 8 GP Columbus list (in which I made the following personal choices: -1 Stifle, -1 Fire/Ice, +1 Daze, +1 Needle) and swap the Bears for Goys:

UGR Threshold

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Cantrip (whatever you want to call them) (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

Control, etc. (11)
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Daze

Burn, etc. (6)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (17)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest

What should be the sideboard for the post-Flash meta and what sideboard strategy should be used ?

Here's my first thought:

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm (Goblins, CRET Belcher, TES, Black based aggro, etc.)
3 Spell Snare (Fish, Black based aggro, etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (the usual: Crypt, Jitte, etc.)
6 ?

Should we play Jitte (like the Gro builds I know - some of them play it MD) ?
Should we dedicate SB slots to Counterbalance-Top ?
Should Stifle number 4 be included in the SB ?
Is Spell Snare still relevant ? I say yes mainly because Grunts tend to show up often in my meta, but I'd like to know what you think.

I ask again my age-old question: Since we run 3-4 maindeck Stifles making our manabase less prone to Wasteland, would it be a good idea to splash white for a SB or MD Mystic Enforcer (it might help vs. Slivers and aggro in general) ? If so, I'd probably go with the above build with - 1 Flooded Strand, -1 Wooded Foothills or -1 Forest, + 2 Tundra. It would give access to SB Meddling mages... and even maybe Worship (really not sure here).

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Then just keep playing Meathooks, you are not adding anything to this discussion about how to make UGR Thresh better.

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Good point. It's good to see you are posting again...

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands. Also, it should be an even split on the blue fetches; there's no reason not to do so.

I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.