[Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

and they managed to land 3 (!) Mages on Deed, Putrefy, and Wish, which pretty much killed me. In another, he had turn 1 Pithing Needle on Deed, followed by two Mages naming Wish and Putrefy. Tonight we might work on SB games (Because these were all pre-board)

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Testing with someone who knows you exact decklist and plays like this will adulterate the results of preboard games. In a tourney you will never cast an early Mage on Putrefy or a Turn 1 Needle on Deed. It is the same that in those games you start hitting first Turn Therapies on FoW on the play. You should test Game 1 as if you don't know what your opponent is playing unless you are Oliver Ruel or another Pro who get these informations while shuffling.

Basically the test result of the game you described is worthless because this game (turn 1 Needle on Deed) will never happen in a tourney.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Testing with someone who knows you exact decklist and plays like this will adulterate the results of preboard games. In a tourney you will never cast an early Mage on Putrefy or a Turn 1 Needle on Deed. It is the same that in those games you start hitting first Turn Therapies on FoW on the play. You should test Game 1 as if you don't know what your opponent is playing unless you are Oliver Ruel or another Pro who get these informations while shuffling.

Basically the test result of the game you described is worthless because this game (turn 1 Needle on Deed) will never happen in a tourney.

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This I know. I would also say that after game 1, those plays would be more frequent. If they saw Deed, Troll, Witness, etc. in game 1, chances are (unless they live oblivious to The Rock's existance) Mages and Needles will be coming down to shut me out of removal. It's also difficult to just play ignorantly and also get your test partners to do the same. Possible, yet hard to do.

I have met a deck on MWS that might be classified as rock-variant centering on gaining card advantage.

4 GW fetches 1 BR fetch 2 Forest 1 Plains 4 Bayou 3 Savannah 1 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold 1 Nantuko Monastery 2 Treetop Village 4 Mishra's Factory

4 Wall of Blossoms 4 Eternal Witness 3 Dark Confidant 4 Mesmeric Fiend 4 Ohran Viper

2 Vindicate 3 Pernicious Deed 4 StP 4 Cabal Therapy 2 Jitte 2 Ghostway

SB:2 Vindicate 1 Pernicious Deed 3 Carven Caryatid 4 Needle 4 Darkblast 1 Life from the Loam

This deck owns a decent matchup against aggros and various kinds of combos while lose to burns and solidarity that runs few permanent.
More discussions...

I've come to realize the Rock is a possible strong contender for the metagame. It's an established archtype with strong roots, and can be tooled to battle the opponents on all fronts. This is the list I am currently running. It has an aggro feel, so it can race quite easily, and has a strong creautre base to abuse Jitte.

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Forest (1)
2 [B] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [B] Llanowar Elves
3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
3 [CS] Ohran Viper
3 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Duress
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [UL] Unearth
3 [RAV] Putrefy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 4 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 2 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast

Ohran Viper: A recent addition from Coldsnap. I think it can be an all star in this deck, especially with stronghold and unearth recurssion happening.

You know what rock's problem is. Deed.

It's so insanely powerful, but it also antisynergic with and makes you hesistate to play the best cards in the game, like equipment for example.

Glad to see a build that says who cares and run 4 Jitte anyways. It does win games by itself afterall.

2 Reanimate >>>> 2 Unearth in your build. It can get you back Baloth, after you sac it in response to a Swords or Deed at 4.

Plus it can take the opponents Exalted Angel that you just deeded as well. Or the big fatty that you made your opponent discard with Cabal Therapy.

The unearth slot could come out altogether, maybe resulting in two MD Hymn to Tourach. Or more Witnesses

You could bring it out for another Witness and Troll. Have you given SoFI a thought? I would probably run a 3/2 of Jitte and SoFI.

If I ran any equipment, it would be Mask of Memory and Jitte.

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Originally Posted by iOWN

If I ran any equipment, it would be Mask of Memory and Jitte.

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The Jitte I can see running, no doubt. I'm not really sold on MoM, as it has no power/toughness boost, which is what makes the creatures dangerous. Ohran Viper with SoFI is just insane, as when it connects, it then shoots something for 2 while drawing you 2 cards. Against Goblins that pretty much up ends the game. I've yet to have a real problem with Deed and the equipment so far, as I've been viewing Deed in the deck now as sort of a reset button if your opponent gets ahead. Moving The Rock more towards an aggro roll, with disruption elements, may just what it needs to push it into contention. So far I've been testing this build, based off of Noobslayer's list:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Ohran Viper
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

6 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Bayous
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
1 Volrath Stronghold

I may bring the land count down again now, due to the addition of the elves. I'd like the deck to take on a more proactive roll, forcing the opponent into defense, while using Therapy/Duress to push through key spells.

I think you could even go as far as cutting a Deed if you need to fit in something else in another slot. But I defineately think that's a metagame call. I'll test the list I'm running now, and let you know how that plays out. Anyone, PM me if you want to test. IM SquirellReaper88 on aim.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think you could even go as far as cutting a Deed if you need to fit in something else in another slot. But I defineately think that's a metagame call. I'll test the list I'm running now, and let you know how that plays out. Anyone, PM me if you want to test. IM SquirellReaper88 on aim.

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I was just thinking that as well. Maybe not 4 Deed, perhaps 2-3 would be the correct call. But yes, testing is in order. I've been continually running pre-board games against Goblins (one of my harder matchups with the old list) and everything is going fantastic. As of this writing, I have 2 Vipers on the board, one equipped with SoFI and a Jitte with 5 counters on it to his 2x Ringleader and SGC with tokens.

Edit: My only gripe is that Ohran Viper won't be legal for Gencon, which means I have to find something that can replace him...

Well, I think at GenCon, you're going to see a lot of Gro and a lot of Solidarity. It's a shame too, because Viper is pretty sweet vs. Gro's ground dudes. I guess you could go:

-3 Ohran Viper
+1 Duress (to finish out the set)
+2 Hypnotic Specter (Good against your control and combo match-ups, comes out turn two off a Llanowar/Fyhndorn elf, and carries a Jitte/Sword over the competition)

That's just my two cents. In the end it's your call.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

Well, I think at GenCon, you're going to see a lot of Gro and a lot of Solidarity. It's a shame too, because Viper is pretty sweet vs. Gro's ground dudes. I guess you could go:

-3 Ohran Viper
+1 Duress (to finish out the set)
+2 Hypnotic Specter (Good against your control and combo match-ups, comes out turn two off a Llanowar/Fyhndorn elf, and carries a Jitte/Sword over the competition)

That's just my two cents. In the end it's your call.

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(We've already talked about this on AIM, I just thought I'd add it to the forum)

I took a walk tonight after testing the deck and realized Viper would not be legal for Gencon. That was a bummer, but I, too, thought of replacing him with Specter for the time being. While it somewhat weakens your Goblins matchup, it should improve both your Gro and Combo matchup in the process. The next thing we should nail down is the SB. I've been wondering if I should run 3 Hymns in the board for the Combo matchup, bring out Putrefy. Something along the lines of:

4 Withered Wretch
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
2 Virtue's Ruin

The decklist has changed so far to:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bayous
2 Mire's
2 Foothills
2 Strongholds

Edit: Had to change the SB due to their being 16 cards instead of 15, and to make an update to include the addition of 3 Chains.

Because of the unfortunate lack of Viper for GenCon, I think for the aggro version of the rock, you've hit it head on. Good luck.

If you are running 3 Jittes and 2 SOFI, then what do you think of "Stone-Throwing Devils"?

Having first strike means that with an equpped Jitte, they will get their counters before the blocking creature can deal it's damage. With an equipped SOFI, you will draw a card, and deal 2 damage before the blocking creature deals it's damage. Pretty sweet!

Also, the Devils can block, kill, and survive your opponent's first-turn Lackeys.

"Black Knight" could also be a good creature with all that equipment.

Other possibilities could be "Nekrataal", "Sanguine Guard", "Knight of Stromgald"/"Order of the Ebon Hand", and "Glissa Sunseeker".

Well I played the newest list of The Rock to a less than awesome record of 2-4 at the Legacy Champs. What I expected to be a field of Gro and Solidarity (What my SB was geared toward beating) turned out to be Goblins/Sligh decks. My rounds were:

Round 1: Dave with Smart Goblins (L)
Round 2: Matt with Angel Stompy (W)
Round 3: Don't remember his name with Seismic Assault/LftL/Burn.dec (L)
Round 4: Disgruntled player named John with Goblins (L)
Round 5: Matt (Different one) with not so good Goblins.dec (W)
Round 6: Chris with Mono Red Sligh...thing (L)

-Drop-

Most of my losses came from never getting what I needed when I mulliganed, or I would gain control of the game finally, only to have an arbitrarily large amount of burn thrown at my head. Granted I think the deck will improve some when Viper becomes legal, but I was also thinking about bringing the land count back up to 22. With Equipment, Deed, Stronghold, and Troll, the deck is very mana hungry. I think 22 would be adequate in giving us our proper land drops in the early/middle game to help us facilitate what goes on. I lost the second game of round 1, because I couldn't make my land drops to save my life (I had Plague and DB in my hand with no black to cast it due to double mulligan).

I also want to bring the Stronghold count down to 1 I think. There was more than a couple instances where I would have one in play and another sitting in my hand/topdecked another one, or I would get double Stronghold hands. Also, the games I seemed to win was when I threw down a turn 2 Troll and started swinging. That usually caused the game to swing in my favor (Ask the Round 2 AS player what staring down double Trolls is like). I'd like to see more fast Trolls/Baloths/Vipers (In the future). So I'm gonna test those changes and see how it works with the deck.

When you play the aggroversion of the Rock, cut Pernicious Deed (or put them into the sideboard). It doesn't have good synergy with most of your permanents on the table.

Looking at your decklist:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bayous
2 Mire's
2 Foothills
2 Strongholds

You're playing aggro, so adapt your version that it really looks like aggro. Cut Pernicious Deed and Duress. Cabal Therapy is still a good card, so it can stay. I think you don't even need Sakura-Tribe Elder in an aggrodeck. Your creatures are cheap, so you won't be having that much problems with your mana.

Let's take a look at your manabase: (Using your list)
* 12 cards at 1CC
* 6 cards at 2CC
* 19 cards at 3CC
* 3 cards at 4CC
See where I'm going? 19 cards at 3CC is way too much. No wonder you had to mulligan that much. Cut Pernicious Deed for Withered Wretch (or something else you can use). Replace Putrefy with Smother. Now you have 12cards at 3CC.
Change the Fyndhorn Elves with Birds of Paradise. You're playing a lot of cards that require double-colored casting cost. Your chances of hitting a turn 2 Hypnotic Specter against combo are bigger now. Birds of Paradise has flying, and when it's equiped with Sword of Fire and Ice, the party can begin. Even when Birds is useless, you can sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. You can still change Duress with some Elves.
At 2CC, cut Sakura-Tribe Elder. (I already told you the reason.) Replace them for example with Mesmeric Fiend (against combo) or eventually Dark Confidant.
One thing you should try: Chrome Mox. (1 random or maybe 2) It can be very usefull.

This is what I had to say about the aggroversion. You really need to choose between aggro and aggro-control. When you're playing aggro-control, cut the equipment, the hyppies (and Orhan Viper). They suck whenever you blow Deed.

I hardly ever mulliganed game 1. I mulliganed alot in games 2-3 because I was looking for the cards I SB'd. That's what I meant by, "Never getting getting what I needed when I mulliganed." I would probably leave Duress in, as it helped me out all day, either by hitting cards, or by letting me make awesome Therapies next turn with the knowledge it gave me. Deed I wouldn't cut altogether, just maybe taking it down to 3. I never had trouble with its interaction against equipment, because usually when I blew it, I either was holding a Witness in my hand, or I had double Troll waiting to come pounding threw and win.

I would also keep the Elves, as Birds are useless with Jitte (unless they're blocking and dying or the Jitte already has counters on it) and after Viper becomes legal, the Specters will be gone, eliminating BB from the MD. It will still be in the SB, but I never had trouble getting GG or BB during the tournament. I think a list akin to what LAM proposed several pages baack may be in order, his list was:

-Aggro Rock by Lego_Army_Spaceman-
4 Elves
4 Birds
4 Trolls
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Putrefy
3 SoFI
2 Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold

This is his explanation of the deck:

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Spaceman

As you can see, I've never played this deck in Legacy. There are no Deeds, too much equipment, and Chrome Moxes. 20 Lands, 3 Chrome Moxes, and 8 Turn 1 mana producers means the deck can pop out that Troll Ascetic or Hyppy on turn 2 regularly, and then equip him on turn 3 or 4. That's not as good in Legacy as it is in Extended, and I don't really know if there's a place for this deck.

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I can see the Specters leaving for Viper, splitting the fetchlands, reducing the Stronghold count, and reversing the Sword/Jitte ratio. We could discuss from here.

Hypnotic Specter was only a place holder for Viper. So as far as cutting the elves for Birds, it seems like a mistake. Namely, you still want something that can trade Lackey, unthreshed Mongeese and Bears, and other x/1 dudes. You also want something (particualrly in my build), that can grab a jitte and start to stack up counters all on its own.

I can see cutting deeds down, to maybe three, but not out entirely. You still have stronghold to rebuild your board post deed, so it's not a detrimental loss. Plus deed is your generic reset button, and is a universal outs to a lot of situations.

I agree that putrefy can be something else, but it also have a nice sense of versatility. I will however, be testing it as other forms of targeted removal.

As far as STE goes, it could be something else, but they help a lot in keeping a stable mana base, and keeping the actual land count lower.

As for Duress... Solidarity and Gro see a lot of play. This helps give you a fighting chance.

EDIT: At LAM list, the big problem is the only relevant un-equipped threat it can present is Troll, everything else can easily be taken care of.

I've been trying to tool with the creature base so far, but I'm kinda stumped. I know what I've nailed down so far for the creature base is:

4 Fyndhorn/Llanowar Elves
4 Dark Confidant
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Ohran Viper

At this point I'm not too sure. I've been toying around with 4 Specters and 2 Birds, but I don't think that'll be that great. But I can't really think of anything better that's good while unequipped. Viper's good because he either swings and draws you a card, or he gets blocked and takes out that creature. He's even more dangerous when equipped, like Troll. Confidant is there as a beater and a card advantage man. I was looking at critters that couldn't be targetted except by me, but that really only left Troll (Which I was already playing), and Silhana Ledgewalker, which was a 1/1 for 1G. And that didn't really thrill me too much. My non-creature spell base looks like this:

4 Therapy
3 Duress
4 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

Same hand disruption package as before, but now with Smother, which I think will perform nicely in the current meta. I brought the overall equip count up to 6, since I plan on playing 22 creatures, so the creature/equip ratio will be the same as AS. The mana base is pretty much the same:

4 Bayou
4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Foothills
2 Mires
1 Stronghold

So far it's been treating me good. I think I'll leave my SB the same, or toss the Deeds in there. Maybe something like:

4 Withered Wretch
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague/Pernicious Deed
2 Pernicious Deed/Engineered Plague

Not sure about it yet, just trying to get the MD nailed down right now.

As this deviates from the regular version of The Rock to a more G/B Aggro-Control, I've code named it The Green Lantern. I know, pretty gay, but it was the only thing I could think of being Green and Black.